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We hear this all too often: Dignity in dying.  Dying with dignity.

 

My issue is with the term,  "dignity." 

Here are the definitions of dignity (Merriam):

1 : formal reserve or seriousness of manner, appearance, or language
2 : the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed
 
 
 

Are we saying a person loses his dignity when he gets ill, or maimed?  He loses his worth?  He's no longer esteemed?

 

When I think of dying with dignity - I think of someone bravely, or trying to be courageous in facing the inevitable.  A cold medicine ad on tv sums it up:

"SUCK IT UP."

 

What do you think?  Can someone please explain about the dignity-part in death.

 

Edited by betsy
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Sometimes when people are dying, they can't do anything for themselves. They are like babies again. They have lost all independence and even the ability to do simple tasks for themselves. They are stuck on pain-killing drips while they lie in their beds shitting themselves. It gets to the point where you just want to die and, perhaps, take a few of the people who say they should just suck it up with them.

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24 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

Sometimes when people are dying, they can't do anything for themselves. They are like babies again. They have lost all independence and even the ability to do simple tasks for themselves. They are stuck on pain-killing drips while they lie in their beds shitting themselves.

Yeah, that was my mom's situation.  She hated that my sister and I were cleaning her up, with or without the help of the care aids.  The bed sores were horrendous, despite our best efforts, and no doubt bodily wastes accentuated the pain.  Lucky for her it was only a few weeks and not a few years.

It gets to the point where you just want to die and, perhaps, take a few of the people who say they should just suck it up with them.

Yeah.  Though Betsy would have approved my mom's suffering, not sure what my mother would have chosen if she'd been offered one.  The most  she was offered was a DNR, which she took amd then elected to go home rather than remain at the hospital.

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4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Dignity means being allowed to make a choice for one's self without regard for the religious beliefs of those who would make the choice for you.

 

Then make your choice before the burden/decision has to fall on somebody else.   The government should not be doing it for you.

Our advance health directives are already on file at my clinic and attorney's office (with living wills)....I still want hydration...my wife doesn't.

 

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More "dignified dying".  A friend had liver disease and was rather sick for some time, but still functional.  When a liver fails, the toxins it fails to clean up affect the entire body, including the brain.  The friend had a couple of small strokes, enough to knock him out for a few days and put him in the hospital, but each time he went home he was a little less capable, a little more confused.  The final time he collapsed, and the ambulance came, he refused to go to the hospital but when the attendant gave him a form to sign, he couldn't figure out what end of the pen to use even with two chances and the attendant telling him what he was doing wrong.  Attendant declared him non-competant and took him to the ER.  While he was hospitalized, my partner went in to his place and took out several bags of feces and feces covered items, cleaned the rest as best he could.  Prior to this, the guy was a pristine housekeeper.

In the hospital there was a 'family meeting' with my partner and I representing the family he didn't have.  The doctor laid out the options: death, and asked  "Do you want to be resuscitated next time you collapse?"  Our friend said "No" and begged our forgiveness for giving up, but he was just tired and ready to go.  The doctor also told our friend that the medication he was on would keep him going for a while, but if he stopped taking it he would die within 2 or 3 days, most likely.   We also discussed palliative care, and the social worker who was there said she's find a place.  But she didn't and the hospital discharged him and sent h8m home.

He was back within 5 days, and in that time more or less forgot about his cat, whom he loved dearly, tried to go to the store without pants and re-sh*tted up his apartment.  He didn't come home this final time and it cost several thousand dollars to have his apartment cleaned by a bio-hazard team, which his landlord had to pay out of pocket.

So much "dignity" in suffering and dying.  

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I always said I wanted to live on, even on life support and saw no dignity in dying. Recently, a family situation, which had a positive outcome, exposed me to the reality of being dependent on others for the basic needs and I realize it is not the way I want to go. It is not a matter of dignity for me but I just couldn't face it. This is a question that each individual has to make for themselves and we cannot foresee how we will feel until that moment arrives. 

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9 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

It is not a matter of dignity for me but I just couldn't face it.

That is an honest answer. 

I think it's one of the worst fears to be maimed so badly - I think of quadruplegics, or those who are paralyzed from the neck down.  Not everyone want to commit suicide despite the condition they're in.   Don't they have any dignity anymore?  I think so highly of them - especially the ones who still try to make the best of it.  They're an inspiration!  If someone in their situation could still soldier on..... 

 

 

 I think......the term dignity is being mis-used.    It implies that those who can no longer care for their basic needs, had lost their dignity.  They hadn't.

 

Euthanasia should be described exactly what it is:  mercy killing.

Edited by betsy
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5 hours ago, LonJowett said:

At least there weren't any fake Christians telling him to suck it up.

Why are you making this personal?  Why do you resort to personal attacks?

Edited by betsy
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6 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Dignity means being allowed to make a choice for one's self without regard for the religious beliefs of those who would make the choice for you.

 

It doesn't always have to be about religious belief, you know.   Unless someone who isn't religious,  is subconsciously concerned about spirituality........to want to live, is a natural instinct, is it not?  Even among animals.

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6 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

The dignity is not gained from death, but lost in the way someone is forced to live by others.

Can you please expand on that.

I suppose it depends on the individual.  His frame of mind.  Like I said, some folks who are fully dependent on others for their basic needs, still try to make the best of it.  Some can even still contribute to society.

 

Edited by betsy
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4 minutes ago, betsy said:

 

It doesn't always have to be about religious belief, you know.   Unless someone who isn't religious,  is subconsciously concerned about spirituality........to want to live, is a natural instinct, is it not?  Even among animals.

Their choice then.  I'm only talking about choice.  I want the right to choose the time, place and method of my own demise if circumstances put me in that position.  I don't want anyone else telling me I cannot.

If I am indisposed, I want my family, with the advice of a medical professional and knowing my wishes anyway, to make that choice for me, again with no-one telling them they cannot.

When it comes to assisted suicide, the opposition to it usually stems from religious beliefs.  Not every time, of course, but it's a reasonable assumption to make.

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31 minutes ago, betsy said:

I suppose it depends on the individual.  His frame of mind.  Like I said, some folks who are fully dependent on others for their basic needs, still try to make the best of it.  Some can even still contribute to society.

Yes it does come down to the individual, and their choice. Certainly with strong support some individuals can make significant contributions (Paul Alexander, Stephen Hawking, etc.) but they need to have that level of support and they need to have the capability of making those contributions. Most people do not receive the level of support necessary to enable them, and many people are unable to make contributions because of degraded capacity (age, medications, etc.).

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Several years ago, a woman in Saskatoon was in her final days in a battle with cancer. She wanted to die at home. She was transported by ambulance and for the final two blocks, she had them drive with lights and sirens. I don't know if that is dignity, but that is the way to go, in style.

Edited by Queenmandy85
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2 hours ago, betsy said:

Why are you making this personal?  Why do you resort to personal attacks?

Because telling them to "suck it up" is one of the most repulsive unChristian things I've read on this forum. 

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2 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Yes it does come down to the individual, and their choice. Certainly with strong support some individuals can make significant contributions (Paul Alexander, Stephen Hawking, etc.) but they need to have that level of support and they need to have the capability of making those contributions. Most people do not receive the level of support necessary to enable them, and many people are unable to make contributions because of degraded capacity (age, medications, etc.).

Even if a disabled person hasn't been able to contribute - would you say he has lost his dignity?

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2 hours ago, LonJowett said:

Because telling them to "suck it up" is one of the most repulsive unChristian things I've read on this forum. 

You better read the whole OP.  And, try to understand it.

 

Anyway.....

What does "suck it up" means?  Accepting hardship, or a difficult situation you cannot change. 

Really?  You say it's unChristian?  Only an ignorant would think that.

 

Ever heard of the Serenity Prayer?


 

Quote

 

One of the most popular prayers today is known as the Serenity Prayer. Written by Reinhold Neibuhr (1892-1971), the prayer was widely used in sermons and Sunday school groups and studies. In the early 40s, the group Alcoholics Anonymous began to use a shortened version of the Serenity Prayer in their twelve step program. 

 

God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
the courage to change the things we can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/prayer/prayers/serenity-prayer-applying-3-truths-from-the-bible.html

 

Edited by betsy
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23 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Not my place to say, that is the point about individual choice.

I'm glad you said that.  It depends on the  disabled person.....if he feels he no longer have any dignity.   And, how he thinks isn't necessarily the reflection of ALL disabled people.  That's my point.

  Imagine the disabled listening to people equate dignity with being infirmed - that, to depend on others for your basic needs means you're without any dignity anymore.   Who wouldn't get really depressed and think they're  better off dead? What an insensitive, discouraging message it is we send.   It's downright cruel to make them feel that way.

 

 

 

 

Edited by betsy
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1 hour ago, betsy said:

I'm glad you said that.  It depends on the  disabled person.....if he feels he no longer have any dignity.   And, how he thinks isn't necessarily the reflection of ALL disabled people.  That's my point.

  Imagine the disabled listening to people equate dignity with being infirmed - that, to depend on others for your basic needs means you're without any dignity anymore.   Who wouldn't get really depressed and think they're  better off dead? What an insensitive, discouraging message it is we send.   It's downright cruel to make them feel that way.

Perhaps its like gay kids listening to Christians talk about how unnatural homosexuality, and how unnacceptable they are to God, so much so that God will damn them eternally for something they cannot even control.   

Who wouldn't get really depressed and think they're  better off dead? What an insensitive, discouraging message it is we send.   It's downright cruel to make them feel that way.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps its like gay kids listening to Christians talk about how unnatural homosexuality, and how unnacceptable they are to God, so much so that God will damn them eternally for something they cannot even control.   

Who wouldn't get really depressed and think they're  better off dead? What an insensitive, discouraging message it is we send.   It's downright cruel to make them feel that way.

You are so incredible with your thoughtful and intelligent responses. Keep up the great work Dia!!

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9 hours ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps its like gay kids listening to Christians talk about how unnatural homosexuality, and how unnacceptable they are to God, so much so that God will damn them eternally for something they cannot even control.   

Who wouldn't get really depressed and think they're  better off dead? What an insensitive, discouraging message it is we send.   It's downright cruel to make them feel that way.

 

There you go again - with your mished-mashed, or twisted analogy.  

 

Yoo-hoo.  Anyone who supports, and justifies the murder of the unborn, does not have any moral ground at all!  

 

Life has no value if you cannot be independent - that's the message  you promote! 

So never mind trying to vilify Christians for their religious belief.  What more when you do so dishonestly - since,  YOU KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND SQUAT!  You claimed to have read the Bible (being a former believer you say) - but you demonstrate clearly your ignorance of it!  What did you read?  The title? :lol:

 

Matthew 10

Persecutions Are Coming

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

 

22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

 

Jesus Teaches the Fear of God

27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

 

Lying comes so easy to a lot of non-believers, especially the revilers of Christianity!  Understandably!  Why do they hate Christianity (Christians)? Because of the values that's taught in it!  You shouldn't lie, is one of them.  

 

 

Taking a life comes easy  -  that's the other message that comes with it!   Of course, it will come easy.  All you have to do is JUSTIFY taking it...........just like the way it's done when we want to get rid of an unborn.  That's what we've been teaching our youth!  It'll get worse!

 

You think it's merely coincidence we see the rise in murder-suicides?  There's hardly no simple suicides anymore!  It's not enough to simply just take your own life.

 

The motto of the day:  if things don't go MY way - end it, but I'll take as many with me!   It's always about ME!

Who puts "ME,"  front and center? Is that a Christian value?

 

 

Now.....back to the topic.  If you want to continue with your line of argument, create your own thread for it!

Edited by betsy
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12 hours ago, LonJowett said:

Because telling them to "suck it up" is one of the most repulsive unChristian things I've read on this forum. 

Christianity adopted and incorporated tribalism, started wars, and Christians started acting in the opposite way of Jesus' teachings.

Imagine Jesus telling a leper to "suck it up".  

This is why humanism has evolved the philosophy of Christianity, and the word "Christian" is reviled by so many today.

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