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Alberta may cut off oil to BC


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4 hours ago, PIK said:

Decades of dumping raw sewage is killing Victoria's ocean floor, diver claims

Yeah, I pointed this out some 20 years ago when I applied for the grant that paid for the sewage pump-out we built in our harbour.  That was about the time I had to give up fishing for a living and after I installed one of the first pressurized above ground septic systems in our region for my own property.  Speaking for myself I think my shit smells just fine but its every asshole for him/itself these days. I figure I've done my bit.

Besides slagging everyone in BC for it's governments crimes what have you done?

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The idiots are essentially brain dead.  It is not as if everyone is going to stop driving their cars, buying things made of plastic, flying airplanes, paving roads, etc.   So, the oil is going to be s

Climate is the statistical distribution of weather. Thus it is easier to predict than weather itself. Similarly, if you flipped a fair coin 1 million then we can expect with extremely high probability

I saw this posted today and I checked his numbers RE: the spills.  

17 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah, I pointed this out some 20 years ago when I applied for the grant that paid for the sewage pump-out we built in our harbour.  That was about the time I had to give up fishing for a living and after I installed one of the first pressurized above ground septic systems in our region for my own property.  Speaking for myself I think my shit smells just fine but its every asshole for him/itself these days. I figure I've done my bit.

Besides slagging everyone in BC for it's governments crimes what have you done?

I have a very small footprint,as small as you can get. And now we have quebec coming in and ripping alberta and the feds, but then turns around and talks about the big deal with Newfoundland on a big mining deal . And one more thing eyeball where is McKenna on the huge cement plant in QUE that produces more co2 then the oilsands?

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On 2018-04-17 at 8:51 AM, PIK said:

I have a very small footprint,as small as you can get. And now we have quebec coming in and ripping alberta and the feds, but then turns around and talks about the big deal with Newfoundland on a big mining deal . And one more thing eyeball where is McKenna on the huge cement plant in QUE that produces more co2 then the oilsands?

The size of your footprint in the scheme of things is arguable and I'd say your apologetic whataboutism tips the balance towards the heavier end of the scale.  Whataboutism is like a virtue (or lack thereof) signal from the public that enables politicians and government to talk out either side of their mouths when it comes to...virtually anything.

McKenna is probably listening to a panel of BSc's in economics and environment telling her that its okay. Victoria has a similar panel telling it that ocean dumping is the most cost efficient way of disposing of its crap. Everyone is using panels of experts, so what? What difference does it make?

It's ironic listening to concerns over constitutionality, confederation and jurisdiction in the struggle between the environment and the economy.  Take Victoria's dumping of sewage again as an example.  Part of the willingness of Small Craft Harbours (in Ottawa) to pay for our harbour's sewage pump-out and in other places was, amongst other things, to give larger municipalities like Victoria a little moral nudge in the ribs to do something about their sewage. That is how Ottawa sold it to me and I included mention of that when resold it to our council.  Don't get me started on the federal regulations that compel boaters to use pump-outs that are connected to municipal systems that capitals like Victoria allow to pump up the hill and down the other side into the ocean.

Personally I blame our inability to do anything about this sort of retarded discombobulation on our inability to use our confederation and constitution in the struggle between accountability and no accountability, but maybe that's just me.  

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:16 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

It is not just the NDP and Greens pushing this. A lot of people in BC are opposed to KM. It is a problem of one province not wanting to destroy it's natural beauty vs the other province wanting to make money. 

Well, I guess that if you do not want to see all the beauty that BC has to offer disappear well than maybe we should stop all future growth and construction in BC, right? I mean in order to grow and build more homes and businesses we have to cut and clear trees in order to take advantage of what BC has to offer , right? I guess also that we should stop building new roads and bridges in order to not destroy any more of the beauty that BC has to offer, right? The people that are opposed to the pipeline are the same old tired fools that are against any every kind of growth or project in BC. Those fools want to send BC back into the stone age and live like the Indians did before the Europeans came along. Those same fools can't seem to figure out that the homes that they live in or the cars that they drive meant that some of the BC beauty had to be cleared away. Some people's stupid kids. :rolleyes:

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On 4/17/2018 at 8:51 AM, PIK said:

I have a very small footprint,as small as you can get. And now we have quebec coming in and ripping alberta and the feds, but then turns around and talks about the big deal with Newfoundland on a big mining deal . And one more thing eyeball where is McKenna on the huge cement plant in QUE that produces more co2 then the oilsands?

I am sure glad that I don't have big feet. Otherwise I would be contributing a lot more damage to the beauty of BC. :D  These crazy environmental fools can't seem to get it that there is thousands upon thousands of acres of trees north of Vancouver. There is now way all of it will ever be developed or destroyed. 

Besides, I am always being shown as to how beautiful the BC interiors are up especially up north and it all must be kept free from development for future generations. But yet there is no way for me to ever get to see this BC beauty because the only way I can get to see it all is to either fly there by plane(expensive)or hike there. No roads allowed. Not much point in tyring to save it if one cannot get to it. 

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On 4/13/2018 at 6:20 PM, eyeball said:

 

So what PIK and Argus are saying is that the people governments govern are no different than their governments...identical in viewpoint, hypocrisy, guilt - in total synchronized agreement with one another at every level.  Just automatons with no autonomy.    

Funnily enough that's pretty much what BC is being told it should be when it comes to 'our' oil and 'our' interests' - they/we are or SHOULD be one and the same and we should all just get with the program - or be punished.   That's really fucked up.

I think you miss the whole point, BC is screaming at the top of it's lungs we don't want your dirty oil. we don't want to take the risk of a spill it will damage our pristine environment, and what everyone else is saying that boat has sailed, you pump your shit into that same environment, knowing full well what that means, to the environment, shrugging their shoulders and quoting it is the most economical way of disposing of it.... one of your major resources is coal....come on really tree huggers and coal....sounds like they are talking from both sides of their mouths.....And then Quebec gets in on it.....WTF....Right after this pipeline goes through they should start the energy east line as well tell Quebec, the same thin get on board or get on the boat to BC...

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I saw this posted today and I checked his numbers RE: the spills.

 

Quote

 

This NEEDS to be shared:

Apr 16, Monday - 2018
By Darren Vodden

...

Having lived in Alberta and worked in the Oil & Gas industry for 20 years, I have been keeping close tabs on the developments of the Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain Pipeline and the hurdles it is facing.

Last week, Kinder Morgan halted all non-essential spending on the project until the political mess surrounding the project is sorted out. It also imposed a May 31 deadline for when the shenanigans must come to an end. If things aren’t sorted out by then, Kinder Morgan intends on pulling the plug on the project.

Without delving into the greasy politics of the project, I think it is worth noting the statistics surrounding the Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain and how unfounded the concerns of the vocal minority of British Columbians really are.

The original line was commissioned in 1953 and had an initial capacity of 41,000 m3/day of oil (1 m3 = 1000 liters or 6.29 barrels). The line was upgraded in 2008 and its capacity increased to 48,000 m3/day, which equates to roughly 457 train cars filled to capacity, creating a train 8.1 km long. Put in other terms, this would fill 960 super-bee tractor-trailers, creating a bumper-to-bumper convoy from the Alberta Legislature to Edmonton International Airport. Trans Mountain safely transports this volume of oil to Burnaby and markets around the world EVERY DAY.

After plugging those numbers into my calculator, I estimate that Kinder Morgan has moved just shy of 1 BILLION cubic meters (roughly 6.3 billion barrels) of oil from Alberta to the Burnaby terminal since 1953. That’s BILLION with a ‘B’.

Over the history of the pipeline, there have been 81 recorded spills. I took the time to review the spill summary and it shows that although many spills were far below the reporting threshold, they were reported anyway. Of these 81 spills, 3 were water spills, the 8 smallest spills had a total combined volume of less than 1 m3, and almost 65% of the spill volume was contained within a terminal where spill containment procedures and systems are rigorously maintained. The worst pipeline spill in the last 15 years was caused by a careless road equipment operator when he struck the line in 2007, releasing nearly 240 m3. It is worth noting that since that incident, there has not been a single protest calling for the ban of road maintenance equipment. The Trans Mountain record isn’t perfect, but 99.999356% isn’t bad. Since the Westridge Marine Terminal began shipping oil to foreign markets in 1953, not a single spill has been reported in the coastal waters of British Columbia. ZERO.

While the BC provincial government digs in its heels siting grave environmental concerns for their coastal waters, less than 50 km away at Westshore Terminals sits the largest coal exporting terminal in North America. Enquiring minds would like to know how exporting 36.8 million metric tonnes of coal is acceptable, but ‘dirty bitumen’ is not? The emissions attributed to the oil through Trans Mountain over its ENTIRE LIFETIME will be equalled by the exported Westshore Terminal’s coal in only 2-3 years.

This is the epitome of hypocrisy. Their firm opposition to tanker traffic is loud and boisterous in Vancouver, yet silent as coal ships are loaded only a stones-throw away, and foreign oil tankers filled with unethical and bloody oil dock at our refineries in the East. Let’s not forget the $150 million pipeline being built that will offload Panamax tankers on the Fraser River and transport foreign jet fuel to the Vancouver International Airport. Shouts that sound the importance of protecting our waters are muffled by the drains of Victoria’s raw sewage as it is discharged into the ocean, just down the street from where BC business leaders are pleading with John Horgan to put the brakes on this economy-killing madness.

One can only hope that this charade comes to an end and this vital piece of infrastructure gets built. Canada and Alberta extract the most ethical, safe, and environmentally conscious oil on the entire planet. As a Patch Proud Albertan, I hold my head high knowing that I play a role in its production and wish that our provincial neighbors to the West shared that sense of pride with us. With the US finding new oil and gas plays, Washington has lifted its 40-year ban on oil exports and now sells 1.5 to 2 million barrels to foreign markets every day. We now have to compete with these exports, but by influencing our lobbyists and attempting to landlock our oil, we are denying the world access to the most ethical oil on the planet.

As a nation, we desperately need to make this project happen. Canadians need to stand up to the few that oppose its construction, build this pipeline and be proud of the world-class product we are delivering to foreign markets.

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Thank you Darren Vodden 1f917.png

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think you miss the whole point, BC is screaming at the top of it's lungs we don't want your dirty oil. we don't want to take the risk of a spill it will damage our pristine environment, and what everyone else is saying that boat has sailed, you pump your shit into that same environment, knowing full well what that means, to the environment, shrugging their shoulders and quoting it is the most economical way of disposing of it.... one of your major resources is coal....come on really tree huggers and coal....sounds like they are talking from both sides of their mouths.....And then Quebec gets in on it.....WTF....Right after this pipeline goes through they should start the energy east line as well tell Quebec, the same thin get on board or get on the boat to BC...

If that's what you've taken away from what I've said, as opposed to what my stupid province says, I really don't give a fuck what you think.

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2 hours ago, Goddess said:

I saw this posted today and I checked his numbers RE: the spills.

 

Yabut what about....

 

Quote

 

Marc Lee


Canada is still a rogue state on climate change

It has now been two years since world leaders created the Paris Agreement on Climate Change. At those meetings, the Canadian delegation joined a broad coalition aiming to keep “the increase in the global average temperature to well below 2°C above pre-industrial levels and to pursue efforts to limit the temperature increase to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels” (Article 2).

At the time, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau proclaimed that “Canada is back” when it comes to global leadership on climate action. His proclamation assumes, however, that Canada was ever really there. While our nation prides itself on international cooperation and leadership, our real track record is one of making grand promises, and then failing to live up to them.

Promises, promises...

 

Trudeau is speaking out both sides of his mouth and right-wingers are proud of him.  Figures.

Like a rule that says I have to pump shit up one side of the hill to someone with a licence to pump it into the ocean on the other side?  Or is my point lost on you as well?

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First of all, please let me congratulate the forum on the lack of partisan bickering and balance of sound arguments and information in this thread.  Sorry not to have been able to participate much - but deep in a cycle of capitalist pig panics and projects last while.

I have been asked a number of times why I am so skeptical of "climate scientists" while I claim to be so trusting and believing in science in general.  Yes, carbon in the atmosphere IS a  big deal, and much of what we do DOES contribute to it, but I can not agree with the DEGREE of anthropomorphic contribution.  Rather than quoting published "stuff" (you can find just about anything you want to support your point) I instead think of all of that limestone that I encounter in the crust of Mother Earth.   How the Hell do you think it GOT there?  Yup, it,s carbon was all at one time in our atmosphere.  The evolution of the planet has seen some HUGE swings in CO2 levels, and any idea that we can somehow stop or even greatly influence it is IMHO exceedingly naive.  BTW:  methane is a far more significant greenhouse gas, and if you ever considered the amount of natural methane seeps over time, you would appreciate that even all of the cows can not fart out enough to really put a dent in those numbers.   The  big methane risk is thawing of nodules as sea temperatures rise.   Also it seems that the atmospheric CO2 numbers rise AFTER ocean temps (as that is by far the greatest repository of CO2), not before.  Then, there is the energy from our relative position with the galaxy (now changing to less input from that source.) 

There are some extremely large non-anthro factors at play, some seldom or never considered in models.

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On 3/9/2018 at 10:45 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

How are we screwed? The oil isn't going to evaporate. It is deferring production until it is worth more. We will run out of oil. That is when we will be screwed. 

In the mean time, it is not just "lefties" who are concerned. We are finally waking up to the fact that, like oil, once our wilderness, the feature that defines Canada, is gone, we will never get it back. People in BC are concerned that they are putting the natural beauty of the province at risk for money. You can always get more money, but you can't replace the river valleys and coastal waters. Just look at the damage to the Slocan after a mere truck load of aviation fuel spilled, or the North Saskatchewan after the Husky spill. 

To be fair to the oil nuts, oil has an expiration date, the number of electric cars and hybrds is rising everyday, in 2 decades, oil will fall in value because there won't be that many oil driven vehicles as there are now.  Then when you add on the carbon tax and higher gas prices, gas vehicles will be even more expensive.  So I'd say Alberta sees a window to export their filth.

 

The irony is, if they can export it via BC, gas prices in the rest of canada will increase, not decrease.  Mainly because oil company will charge us for the additional infrastructure of the pipeline and that there will be less oil here.

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27 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Rather than quoting published "stuff" (you can find just about anything you want to support your point) I instead think of all of that limestone that I encounter in the crust of Mother Earth.   How the Hell do you think it GOT there?  Yup, it,s carbon was all at one time in our atmosphere. 

How long do you think it took for plankton and sedimentation processes to turn CO2 into limestone compared to how fast it takes us to turn fossil fuels into CO2?  How about compared to the good times that roll through Alberta like a proverbial flash in the pan?  

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5 hours ago, eyeball said:

How long do you think it took for plankton and sedimentation processes to turn CO2 into limestone compared to how fast it takes us to turn fossil fuels into CO2?  How about compared to the good times that roll through Alberta like a proverbial flash in the pan?  

quite aware and a very good point.   However, we live in a short term carbon society as much as we live on a long term carbon based planet.   The trick is to manage the real risks associated with technology - and in the case of transporting hydrocarbons, pipelines are by far the lowest risk method.   Had Alberta the stones and shut the oil and gas off at its Western border, it would be about one week before all of BC would be rioting for it to be turned back on.   Just as with the sewage nonsense, BC politics is driven by posturing and ignorance, not logic and reason.

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16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Trudeau is speaking out both sides of his mouth and right-wingers are proud of him.  Figures.

Name one. 

You are exactly right that he is talking out both sides of his mouth and everyone (including right wingers) can see it. Pipeline advocates have been down this road before to know that nothing is built until its built and they won't be happy until oil is actually flowing through this thing. Until then its all lip service. 

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7 minutes ago, Accountability Now said:

Name one. 

You are exactly right that he is talking out both sides of his mouth and everyone (including right wingers) can see it. Pipeline advocates have been down this road before to know that nothing is built until its built and they won't be happy until oil is actually flowing through this thing. Until then its all lip service. 

Goddess for one.

Don't worry, I'm quite certain the lips will win the day.  Victoria just wants a little kiss before it gets screwed is all.

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2 hours ago, cannuck said:

quite aware and a very good point.   However, we live in a short term carbon society as much as we live on a long term carbon based planet.   The trick is to manage the real risks associated with technology - and in the case of transporting hydrocarbons, pipelines are by far the lowest risk method.   Had Alberta the stones and shut the oil and gas off at its Western border, it would be about one week before all of BC would be rioting for it to be turned back on.   Just as with the sewage nonsense, BC politics is driven by posturing and ignorance, not logic and reason.

The real trick has been to convince people that climate change is fake news...easy peasy, especially in these mealy-mouthed times.

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Quote

 

New Brunswick man loses his 'free-the-beer' fight.

The nine-justice panel said provinces have the constitutional right to restrict the importation of goods from another province, as long as the primary aim of the restriction is not to impede trade.

Gerard Comeau, 64, of Tracadie, a small community some 160 kilometres north of Moncton, was at the centre of the so-called "free-the-beer" case, which garnered national attention because it could have had implications for much more than just beer.

Might be a bit of a stretch but perhaps this case could work to BC's advantage - the primary aim of impeding Crudeau from crossing provincial lines after all is to protect the environment not impede trade.   

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Alberta had an army of temporary foreign worker's to make its economy hum along too.  Thousands and thousands of them as I recall. 

Alberta also has a Chinese government owned Crudeau sands operation with workers from China.  In fact China's oily-garchs are amongst the biggest foreign investors in the oil sands.

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On 4/18/2018 at 2:30 PM, Goddess said:

I saw this posted today and I checked his numbers RE: the spills.

 

 

These constant demonstrations being done by a handful of misfits needs to come to an end. How does a few misfits get to stop a huge pipeline project that needs to be built. Thousands of jobs could be lost because of these misfits who have been worked up by the phony environmental movement and native Indians who are against any and all kinds of progress. A small minority of people should not be allowed to dictate to the majority as things seem to be done these days. If those mentioned above could get their way we would all be now living in teepees and wooden shacks in the bush. I hate having to use those smelly outhouses. It is a lot safer to pipe the oil in rather than have it delivered by train. Derailments will happen and so will pipelines develop a leak. I would think that a leak is better than a derailment. Anyway any leak will get It cleaned up and the world will survive and continue to go on. BC won't lose all of it's beauty with millions of square miles of BC beauty out there. Nature has done more harm to the planet for thousands of years from ice ages and hurricanes and earthquakes and all so much more and yet the earth has survived. Population growth is more of a danger to the planet than an oil spill ever will. These misfits act like we all don't need oil but yet everything they use is pretty much reliant on oil and I am sure that they would not want to give up living in houses and driving their cars. Today. oil companies go way out of their way to make sure that oil spills do not happen. Why can't these misfits get that thru their thick brainwashed heads. 

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6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Alberta also has a Chinese government owned Crudeau sands operation with workers from China.  In fact China's oily-garchs are amongst the biggest foreign investors in the oil sands.

The only major Chinese investment I can recall in the Alberta Oil Sands was CNOOC's purchase of Nexen.  They had earned a war chest of $15Bn that either got spent in acquisitions by their NYSE company or it would go back to CNOOC in China - never to be seen by CNOOC USA again.   They regretted that decision ever since, but it was also a major coup for them, as they were rebuffed by the US government when they tried to buy a large oil company there many years before.   Since there was well over $100Bn of projects going on when the bought Nexen, they were obviously a long way from being the biggest player in that sandbox.

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23 hours ago, cannuck said:

First of all, please let me congratulate the forum on the lack of partisan bickering and balance of sound arguments and information in this thread.  Sorry not to have been able to participate much - but deep in a cycle of capitalist pig panics and projects last while.

I have been asked a number of times why I am so skeptical of "climate scientists" while I claim to be so trusting and believing in science in general.  Yes, carbon in the atmosphere IS a  big deal, and much of what we do DOES contribute to it, but I can not agree with the DEGREE of anthropomorphic contribution.  Rather than quoting published "stuff" (you can find just about anything you want to support your point) I instead think of all of that limestone that I encounter in the crust of Mother Earth.   How the Hell do you think it GOT there?  Yup, it,s carbon was all at one time in our atmosphere.  The evolution of the planet has seen some HUGE swings in CO2 levels, and any idea that we can somehow stop or even greatly influence it is IMHO exceedingly naive.  BTW:  methane is a far more significant greenhouse gas, and if you ever considered the amount of natural methane seeps over time, you would appreciate that even all of the cows can not fart out enough to really put a dent in those numbers.   The  big methane risk is thawing of nodules as sea temperatures rise.   Also it seems that the atmospheric CO2 numbers rise AFTER ocean temps (as that is by far the greatest repository of CO2), not before.  Then, there is the energy from our relative position with the galaxy (now changing to less input from that source.) 

There are some extremely large non-anthro factors at play, some seldom or never considered in models.

From what I understand, there is a quantifiable difference between the carbon molecule that is from burned fossil fuels and a naturally occurring carbon molecule. What is rapidly increasing in our our atmosphere is carbon from burned fossil fuels.

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On 2018-04-11 at 9:36 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Unceded BC land has been stolen, occupied, and raped for generations....so NOW pipelines are a problem ?    That's laughable.

I would say the generations of bc-ers who did the heavy "extraction" are fading and IMO being replaced with a more idealist population - for better or worse.

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