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turningrite

The Helsinki debacle

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Even some Trumpistas are upset with their man after yesterday's ignominious show in the Finnish capital. Now that the Russians are the good guys and Canadians, Brits and Europeans are the baddies, is a New World Order upon us? Trump does love dictators, apparently. What does the Helsinki debacle portend for America's place as the defender of, well, despotism and autocracy? Can America as we've known it survive Trump?

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It's pretty stunning that a sitting President would commit treason to keep a Pee Pee tape under wraps. 

Dan Coats is a man Trump himself appointed. I'm anxious to hear how he's part of the Deep State too. 

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America will be fine.....Trump is just another president.   

The question is...can the "allies" survive Trump ?

Will Canada emerge as the leader of the "free world".....not likely !

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

America will be fine.....Trump is just another president.   

The question is...can the "allies" survive Trump ?

Will Canada emerge as the leader of the "free world".....not likely !

Well it is Putin's goal to get NATO dismantled. Both Trump and Putin seem to be tenaciously trying to do that. 

Is it America's goal to align with Tin Pot dictators in Russia, China and North Korea or Western Democracies? 

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2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well it is Putin's goal to get NATO dismantled. Both Trump and Putin seem to be tenaciously trying to do that. 

Is it America's goal to align with Tin Pot dictators in Russia, China and North Korea or Western Democracies? 

 

Sure....it has certainly been done before.    Ever heard of Joseph Stalin ?    FDR sure did.

France left NATO in 1966 in a huff.

NATO is obsolete....too many deadbeats like Canada and Germany anyway.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

America will be fine.....Trump is just another president.   

The question is...can the "allies" survive Trump ?

Will Canada emerge as the leader of the "free world".....not likely !

The big risk for the Americans is that the "free world" might very well figure out that it can survive without the the U..S., which would indeed constitute a new world order. I was watching a debate on CNN the other night (well before the Helsinki fiasco) where a former U.S. government security analyst noted that the U.S. is beginning to tick off several boxes its own security apparatus use to determine whether a country is starting to fail. When listening to Trump on U.S. news coverage yesterday evening I couldn't stop thinking about that security analyst's assessment. Already among the least "free" among Western democracies, is the U.S. actually slipping into outright autocracy?

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5 minutes ago, turningrite said:

.... Already among the least "free" among Western democracies, is the U.S. actually slipping into outright autocracy?

 

If the west was so utterly dependent on a "free USA", then perhaps it is getting exactly what it deserves.

The U.S. is the same as it ever was...perhaps a history lesson is in order with a longer time horizon than Trump's presidency.

Also, note that Brexit preceded a president Trump.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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A question for Bush-Cheney: Is the growing Russian domination of the USA a violation of the Monroe Doctrine which stated that further efforts by European nations to take control of any independent state in North or South America would be viewed as "the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition toward the United States."

Second question: If we are now allies of Russia, why do we need to double our defence budgets. Who are we afraid of? The USA would then have enough money to have a Saskatchewan style health care system.

 

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1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

A question for Bush-Cheney: Is the growing Russian domination of the USA a violation of the Monroe Doctrine which stated that further efforts by European nations to take control of any independent state in North or South America would be viewed as "the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition toward the United States.

 

 

No, as the Monroe Doctrine was targeted at European imperialism in the Americas, declaring that the age of colonization was over.   

The U.S. actually bought Russian Alaska in 1867.

 

Quote

Second question: If we are now allies of Russia, why do we need to double our defence budgets. Who are we afraid of? The USA would then have enough money to have a Saskatchewan style health care system.

 

The U.S. has allied with Soviets/Russia on many occasions and circumstances, as it does with other nations for American interests.

What's so scary about cooperation with Russia or China or North Korea ?    More illegals and terrorists come from Canada/Mexico !

 

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45 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Even some Trumpistas are upset with their man after yesterday's ignominious show in the Finnish capital. Now that the Russians are the good guys and Canadians, Brits and Europeans are the baddies, is a New World Order upon us? Trump does love dictators, apparently. What does the Helsinki debacle portend for America's place as the defender of, well, despotism and autocracy? Can America as we've known it survive Trump?

What "debacle," exactly?

Edited by betsy
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14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

1.) If the west was so utterly dependent on a "free USA", then perhaps it is getting exactly what it deserves.

2.) The U.S. is the same as it ever was...perhaps a history lesson is in order with a longer time horizon than Trump's presidency.

3.) Also, note that Brexit preceded a president Trump.

1.) As Christiane Amanpour noted during an appearance on a CNN panel last week, after the collapse of the Berlin Wall the Europeans sought to extricate themselves from the embrace of the American security model only to see the U.S. strenuously argue for its maintenance. So, which side needed the other more? I suspect few outside of the former Soviet client states that eventually joined NATO are begging the U.S. to remain. Western democracy will survive even if American democracy does not.

2.) The U.S. is the same as it ever was... well, until it ceases to be. Undermining a free press, as Trump seems anxious to do, along with obliterating the independence of the judiciary, as the U.S. has inexorably been doing in recent decades, could well have permanent consequences. Trump's base seems to long for a "strongman" leader, but the history of such leadership elsewhere suggests this can only undermine American democracy. The "founders" of the U.S. constitution, who believed the country should never have a monarch (nor presumably, an equivalent - a dictator) and developed a governance model grounded in the division of powers and strong checks and balances, would no doubt be appalled by recent developments.

3.) I didn't raise Brexit, so I'm not sure sure why you're referencing it? But it's now it's believed that the Brexit result, which was decided by a relatively thin margin, may have been influenced by foreign meddling.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, as the Monroe Doctrine was targeted at European imperialism in the Americas, declaring that the age of colonization was over.   

The U.S. actually bought Russian Alaska in 1867.

Russia is taking control of the USA, an independent nation in the Americas. That is a clear violation of the Monroe Doctrine. 

If this is merely an alliance, then, with Russia on our side, who are we defending western europe against? Terrorism is a matter for the constabulary and if the Presidents of Russia and the United States ally with China, we will have Peace in our Time. What a wonderful age we live in.

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7 minutes ago, betsy said:

What "debacle," exactly?

I'm referencing the U.S. news coverage over the past 24 hours, where descriptions like "disaster", "capitulation" and even "treason" have been commonplace. Trump's Helsinki performance has even been panned on Fox News. The breadth of the negative coverage suggests a pretty resounding condemnation, if you ask me.

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Just now, turningrite said:

1.)  Western democracy will survive even if American democracy does not.

 

America is not a democracy...it is a constitutional republic with democratic elements.    "Western democracies" did not do so well during the first half of the last century, and requested U.S. intervention at several levels, before and after Europe's stupid wars.

 

Quote

2.) The U.S. is the same as it ever was... well, until it ceases to be..... The "founders" of the U.S. constitution, who believed the country should never have a monarch (nor presumably, an equivalent - a dictator) and developed a governance model grounded in the division of powers and strong checks and balances, would no doubt be appalled by recent developments.

 

No, this idea ignores actual American history since 1776.    Check and balances are working just as they have been developed over time (strong and weak executive).  Prime Ministers in Canada with a majority government have more unchecked power than a U.S. president, but Americans do not whine about it.

 

Quote

3.) I didn't raise Brexit, so I'm not sure sure why you're referencing it? But it's now it's believed that the Brexit result, which was decided by a relatively thin margin, may have been influenced by foreign meddling.

 

The point being the the EU was already under stresses and threats of members leaving...before Trump ever became president.   The precious economic and military alliance of the "West" was weakened by several factors having nothing to do with Trump.

France left NATO in 1966...but nobody here seems to remember that.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Russia is taking control of the USA, an independent nation in the Americas. That is a clear violation of the Monroe Doctrine.

 

Utter nonsense....besides...Canada certainly enjoys and benefits from being totally dominated by American economic, cultural, military, and political influences.

 

Quote

If this is merely an alliance, then, with Russia on our side, who are we defending western europe against? Terrorism is a matter for the constabulary and if the Presidents of Russia and the United States ally with China, we will have Peace in our Time. What a wonderful age we live in.

 

Several U.S. presidents have allied with Russia to achieve mutually beneficial outcomes on a scale that Canada cannot realize, as Canada is not a significant player in such things.

Canada does what it can...even as a NATO deadbeat.    The U.S. can do the same if it wishes, no ?

 

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13 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I'm referencing the U.S. news coverage over the past 24 hours, where descriptions like "disaster", "capitulation" and even "treason" have been commonplace. Trump's Helsinki performance has even been panned on Fox News. The breadth of the negative coverage suggests a pretty resounding condemnation, if you ask me.

 

Fox News has taken Trump to task before, notably during the early election media battles and attacks (e.g. Megan Kelly).

I actually find it laughable that Fox News would now be held up as the standard by critics in Canada.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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12 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I actually find it laughable that Fox News would now be held up as the standard by critics in Canada.

You're being disingenuous here, of course. The point is that the criticism was so universal as to sustain my original position that Trump's meeting in Helsinki constituted a debacle. Can you point to any mainstream U.S. media coverage complimentary of Trump's behavior yesterday? I haven't yet found it.

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18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada does what it can...even as a NATO deadbeat.    The U.S. can do the same if it wishes, no ?

Now the US will enjoy being a deadbeat living under the protection of Mother Russia. 

For clarity sake, I do not have any evidence that President Trump works for the Kommitat Bezopasnosti Gosvedarstvenoi. (sorry, I just had to try and spell that from memory It has been a long time.)

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9 minutes ago, turningrite said:

You're being disingenuous here, of course. The point is that the criticism was so universal as to sustain my original position that Trump's meeting in Helsinki constituted a debacle. Can you point to any mainstream U.S. media coverage complimentary of Trump's behavior yesterday? I haven't yet found it.

 

And why is this any different from Trump's media criticism during and after the 2016 election campaign ?

As for "complimentary" U.S. coverage of Helsinki...look harder:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/trump-calls-off-cold-war-ii/

NATO is obsolete...the Cold War is over.     Get use to it.

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Now the US will enjoy being a deadbeat living under the protection of Mother Russia. 

For clarity sake, I do not have any evidence that President Trump works for the Kommitat Bezopasnosti Gosvedarstvenoi. (sorry, I just had to try and spell that from memory It has been a long time.)

 

The U.S. already partners with Russia....where have you been hiding for the past 70 years ?

"Mother Russia" received more WW2 aid from the USA than from Britain/Canada....Canada would eventually become the NATO deadbeat that it is today, while screaming about Russia/Putin.   

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24 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The U.S. already partners with Russia.

A partnership is made up of equals. This is not the case here. I am reminded of the Bugs Bunny cartoon with the two dogs, the dominant little dog named Spike and the big bulldog who's name escapes me. The bulldog would be saying "Me and Spike is pals." To which little Spike would respond with a slap and "Naahh, shadup!" 

 

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

"Mother Russia" received more WW2 aid from the USA than from Britain/Canada.

This is true. Once the US was its self attacked (Britain declared war on Japan before the US), the US and Russia carried much of the burden, US money and Russian blood. 

I'm sorry BC, I should not be winding you up. You do not have to admit that the optics from yesterday were less than a diplomatic triumph. I do have to admit that a renewal of Detente would be a good thing and while President Putin is not a nice guy, he is a damn sight better than Breshnev and he is a popular democratically elected leader.

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It was a pretty ignominious spectacle, with the pathetic Trump beaming eagerly at Trump like he was a little boy who had just met his baseball hero, and looking to him for guidance in what to say. More and more people are now openly talking about, not just hinting that they believe Trump is owned by the Russians, that Putin has so much dirt on his financial dealings with Russian financiers, not to mention his sexual dealings with Russian prostitutes, that Trump doesn't' dare do anything but whatever Putin wants. It's that or be impeached and go to prison. When, in the history of the US, have major political players from the other party, like Chuck Schumer, for example, openly suggested the president is under the control of a hostile foreign government?

If I was in charge of the US intelligence community I would have Trump, his family, and everyone around him, including his aids and secretaries, bugged to their ears and followed wherever they go. I'd have every room in the white house bugged, including the bathrooms, the oval office, and his bedroom. And if I gathered evidence (however illegally) I'd confront him and say "You're going to resign quietly for health reasons... or else".

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2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

As for "complimentary" U.S. coverage of Helsinki...look harder:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/trump-calls-off-cold-war-ii/

NATO is obsolete...the Cold War is over.     Get use to it.

 

I believe the American Conservative site falls into the partisan press rather than mainstream category. In any case, its assessment is remarkably constrained, noting that "With his remarks in Helsinki and at the NATO summit in Brussels, Trump has signaled a historic shift in U.S. foreign policy that may determine the future of this nation and the fate of his presidency." In other words, the eventual impact of his approach can't at this time be determined. Remarkably, as has been pointed out repeatedly since yesterday, Trump's foreign/security policy is an almost complete break from the Reagan Doctrine, which is ironic given that Trump channeled Reagan's memory when running for election. Many Americans, and particularly those of Republican persuasion, seem to believe the world order built following WWII was somehow foisted on them by foreigners whereas the more accurate interpretation is that it's a structure of their own making. Self-delusion seems a weak basis upon which to justify a major power's foreign policy.

As for NATO being obsolete, I tend to agree with you. As I asked in another topic I recently started, does Trump's behavior make it necessary to disband NATO? I'd have to go back and re-read your posts as I haven't been on this site for a few days, but I don't recall you supporting my position that NATO's time has come and gone. The U.S. can, and likely will, retreat into its historical international isolationism. Its importance will inevitably decline further in relation to the broader world. Maybe that won't be such a bad thing, right? With Trump in charge, many in the rest of the world will no doubt want to wear MAGA caps, but the meaning will be Make America Go Away!!!

Edited by turningrite

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Oh I'm fuming like a volcano after helsinki press conference. We'll see how this plays out. He'll either own up to it and admit his mistake(unlikely) or he will double down for his support of putin and try to squirm his way out by changing the topic (probably). 

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Okay all is fine now. Trump admitted his mistake. Now back to debating anti-trumpers...

"Mr. Trump said he has full faith in U.S. intelligence agencies, but emphasized that any actions Russia took had no impact on the presidential election, and diplomacy with Russia is important. The president called his meeting with Putin more successful than his NATO meeting. "

https://www-cbsnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-meets-with-members-of-congress-today-after-helsinki-putin-meeting-live-updates-2018-07-17/?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQECAEoAQ%3D%3D

Edited by paxrom

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