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betsy

It's Irrational To be An Atheist

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On 8/4/2018 at 5:07 AM, betsy said:

By your own statement there,  there shouldn't be any plain theists  - or atheists - at all!  That is, if we base our knowledge by your own "standard."    Lol!    Why?  Did anyone show any undeniable  scientific PROOF that God exists to base that so-called "knowledge?"

You convolute your own thinking into cockamamie nonsense.  Gnostic-theist, my foot.  What a load of rubbish!  

So clarify your position then.  

Do you claim to believe in gods?    If yes you're a theist, if no you're an atheist.
Do you claim to know that gods exist? If yes you're gnostic, if no you're agnostic.

The video you posted at the start of this thread claimed atheists are arrogant for stating they know that gods do not exist. As I have explained, this is a strawman position as most atheists simply do not believe in gods, they do not claim to have absolute knowledge that they are fictitious. However, at the same time the video claims it is acceptable to claim to know that gods do absolutely exist, which is rather hypocritical.  

You can try to defend your strawman position all you want, but no matter what size or colour of font you use knowledge and belief will still be separate concepts requiring separate descriptors. I don't expect to change beliefs but maybe you should ask yourself why religious leaders constructed that strawman for you in the first place. Why is there a need to turn the other side into a false caricature? 

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11 hours ago, Slick said:

So clarify your position then.  

Do you claim to believe in gods God?    If yes you're a theist, if no you're an atheist.

 

Yes I believe in God.  I'm a theist.

 

Quote

Do you claim to know that gods GOD  exist? If yes you're gnostic, if no you're agnostic.

Yes.   That's why I say,  I believe in God.    I'm a theist.

giggle.gif

 

 

Edited by betsy

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11 hours ago, Slick said:

So clarify your position then.  

Do you claim to believe in gods?    If yes you're a theist, if no you're an atheist.
Do you claim to know that gods exist? If yes you're gnostic, if no you're agnostic.

 

 

If someone says he knows God exists because he believes what's written in the Bible - what do you say he is?

Edited by betsy

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11 hours ago, Slick said:



The video you posted at the start of this thread claimed atheists are arrogant for stating they know that gods do not exist. As I have explained, this is a strawman position as most atheists simply do not believe in gods, they do not claim to have absolute knowledge that they are fictitious. However, at the same time the video claims it is acceptable to claim to know that gods do absolutely exist, which is rather hypocritical. 

No, it's not hypocritical.  Like me, I claim to know that God absolutely exists. 

To add to the fact that I believe what the Bible says, I've also got cumulative evidences to support that:   There's the whole world before me........ science doesn't negate me........and most importantly, I've had several personal experiences with God.

 

On the other hand, a person who cannot say plainly that he believes gods don't exists (without any caveat or explanations attached to it), is an agnostic.

  His uncertainty about it, causes him to balk at making a definitive statement.

 

Edited by betsy

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16 hours ago, betsy said:

 

If someone says he knows God exists because he believes what's written in the Bible - what do you say he is?

A gnostic theist.  Believes and claims to know.

16 hours ago, betsy said:

No, it's not hypocritical.  Like me, I claim to know that God absolutely exists. 

Your claim to know absolutely is just as arrogant as stating gods absolutely do not exist. 

Quote

To add to the fact that I believe what the Bible says, I've also got cumulative evidences to support that:   There's the whole world before me........ science doesn't negate me........and most importantly, I've had several personal experiences with God.

What would you say about someone who Sincerely believes they are in communication with a living Elvis or are a time traveler from the future?  Isn't a natural explanation more likely?  These claims aren't any stranger than citing personal experiences with a supernatural being. 

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17 hours ago, GostHacked said:

A claim is not fact.

I'm the claimant.  To me, it is.  And I'd given some evidences to corroborate my claim.

 

You, on the other hand, have nothing at all to back up your claim that God's existence isn't a fact.  Yours is just your opinion.

Your opinion is  not a fact.

Edited by betsy

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5 hours ago, Slick said:

A gnostic theist.  Believes and claims to know.

 

 
 
Quote

 

21 hours ago, betsy said:

If someone says he knows God exists because he believes what's written in the Bible - what do you say he is?

 

A THEIST!  Plain and simple.

  If he believes what's written in the Bible (God's existence)  - obviously it goes without saying  he KNOWS it to be true!   

You can't BELIEVE in something,  and yet at the same time claim you don't know whether it is true, or not.  Claiming you don't know,  makes you automatically an agnostic - otherwise, you don't make any sense! 

Lol.  Believing in something you admit you don't know if it exists - that's irrational! :lol:  See?  You're proving the title of this thread.

Edited by betsy

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6 hours ago, Slick said:

 

Your claim to know absolutely is just as arrogant as stating gods absolutely do not exist.

No, it's not the same at all   Mine is stated with confidence - because I've got evidences to support my claim.

An atheist does not have anything to support his - in fact, his statement goes against science (the  authority that he claims to rely on), by making a definitive proclamation -  thus his attitude smacks simply of arrogance.  Like saying, "That's the truth because I say it is!"

 

See the big difference?

 

Edited by betsy

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6 hours ago, Slick said:

What would you say about someone who Sincerely believes they are in communication with a living Elvis or are a time traveler from the future?

They don't refer to belief in gods,  therefore, they're irrelevant.

 

That's a good evidence though........... showing you're confused.

 

 

Edited by betsy

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2 hours ago, betsy said:

A THEIST!  Plain and simple.

  If he believes what's written in the Bible (God's existence)  - obviously it goes without saying  he KNOWS it to be true!   

You can't BELIEVE in something,  and yet at the same time claim you don't know whether it is true, or not.  Claiming you don't know,  makes you automatically an agnostic - otherwise, you don't make any sense! 

Lol.  Believing in something you admit you don't know if it exists - that's irrational! :lol:  See?  You're proving the title of this thread.

Wrong.

For example, at one point I would have stated that I believed but did not know for sure that the Jesus stories, though obviously mythical, were based on a real historical person. Now I do not believe that the Jesus referred to in the bible was based on a real person but I still do not claim to know.  

I do not believe that the Yeti exists, but I do not claim to know for sure.

I do believe that alien life in the universe exists, but I do no not claim to know for sure.

Belief is different than knowledge. This is a very basic concept. Are you really fighting this battle against logic to preserve the strawman you presented in the OP?

Edited by Guest

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47 minutes ago, betsy said:

They don't refer to belief in gods,  therefore, they're irrelevant.

That's a good evidence though........... showing you're confused.

Belief and knowledge are separate concepts regardless of the entity being described. 

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56 minutes ago, betsy said:

No, it's not the same at all   Mine is stated with confidence - because I've got evidences to support my claim.

An atheist does not have anything to support his - in fact, his statement goes against science (the  authority that he claims to rely on), by making a definitive proclamation -  thus his attitude smacks simply of arrogance.  Like saying, "That's the truth because I say it is!"

 

See the big difference?

 

As discussed, you don't have the evidence you think you do. You are being willfully ignorant in an attempt to justify a predetermined outcome.

Just like deciding the butler did it and then only accepting information that points to the butler while ignoring all other evidence.

It is still fine to believe in gods or the supernatural; but, claiming to know makes you just as arrogant as the strawman atheist position you are attacking.

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2 hours ago, Slick said:

Wrong.

For example, at one point I would have stated that I believed but did not know for sure that the Jesus stories, though obviously mythical, were based on a real historical person. Now I do not believe that the Jesus referred to in the bible was based on a real person but I still do not claim to know. 

Forget the Jesus stories for a while.

Do you believe God exists?

Edited by betsy

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2 hours ago, Slick said:

I do not believe that the Yeti exists, but I do not claim to know for sure.

I do believe that alien life in the universe exists, but I do no not claim to know for sure.

Belief is different than knowledge. This is a very basic concept. Are you really fighting this battle against logic to preserve the strawman you presented in the OP?

forehead-slap-smiley-emoticon.gif

 

 

Irrelevant!

 

FOCUS.

 

Do you know the definition of theism, atheism and agnosticism???   They pertain to God/gods!

Edited by betsy

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2 hours ago, Slick said:

As discussed, you don't have the evidence you think you do. You are being willfully ignorant in an attempt to justify a predetermined outcome.

Just like deciding the butler did it and then only accepting information that points to the butler while ignoring all other evidence.

It is still fine to believe in gods or the supernatural; but, claiming to know makes you just as arrogant as the strawman atheist position you are attacking.

Your baseless opinion is worth nothing.

 

Read my lips:   atheism hasn't got any legs to stand on!

NADA.

 

I gave you a very simple explanation.   It's up to you if you insist to be  obtuse.

Edited by betsy

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2 hours ago, Slick said:

Belief and knowledge are separate concepts regardless of the entity being described. 

But you're arguing about the terms - theism, atheism and agnosticism.   These terms pertains to God/gods.

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56 minutes ago, betsy said:

But you're arguing about the terms - theism, atheism and agnosticism.   These terms pertains to God/gods.

I can disbelieve in the Yeti, Yahweh, Gremlins, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Jupiter, Zeus or whatever god you subscribe to while still not claiming to know they absolutely do not exist. Knowledge and belief are separate concepts that pertain to any entity we describe. That logic doesn't work differently for gods. Similarly, I can also believe in an entity, like alien life, without absolute knowledge of existence.

The definition for atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Note that it refers to a position on belief in gods it does not couple any claims about knowledge.

The definition for agnostic is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or gods. Note that it refers to a position on knowledge.

Religious organizations and speakers like the one you referenced in the OP have been trying to conflate the two terms in to one spectrum for the purpose of beating a strawman. This is dishonest, but then again their job is to persuade or coerce people into continued belief. 

I have now explained to you how I have both a lack of belief and a lack of absolute knowledge about the existence of many entities, gods included. Refusal to accept the simple fact that I am both atheist and agnostic betrays your agenda to besmirch a term rather honestly discuss ideas.

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19 hours ago, Slick said:

I can disbelieve in the Yeti, Yahweh, Gremlins, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Jupiter, Zeus or whatever god you subscribe to while still not claiming to know they absolutely do not exist. Knowledge and belief are separate concepts that pertain to any entity we describe. That logic doesn't work differently for gods. Similarly, I can also believe in an entity, like alien life, without absolute knowledge of existence.

The definition for atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Note that it refers to a position on belief in gods it does not couple any claims about knowledge.

The definition for agnostic is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or gods. Note that it refers to a position on knowledge.

Religious organizations and speakers like the one you referenced in the OP have been trying to conflate the two terms in to one spectrum for the purpose of beating a strawman. This is dishonest, but then again their job is to persuade or coerce people into continued belief. 

I have now explained to you how I have both a lack of belief and a lack of absolute knowledge about the existence of many entities, gods included. Refusal to accept the simple fact that I am both atheist and agnostic betrays your agenda to besmirch a term rather honestly discuss ideas.

Believe what you want.  I ain't buying it though.

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14 hours ago, betsy said:

Believe what you want.  I ain't buying it though.

Just remember my position about not believing in your god but, not stating absolute knowledge of its nonexistence, is likely the exact same as your position on most other unknowable/untestable claims. You probably don't believe in Vishnu, but also can't, with 100% certainty, state that it doesn't exist. To the rest of us, your god is no different than Vishnu, Bigfoot, unicorns or the thousands of other untestable and unknowable gods people have created. Atheists like me just have a lack of belief in one more god than you.

You often mention cumulative evidence, so if evidence is actually important to you can explore how logic and evidence works and shed light on why ideas like intelligent design and theistic evolution are not scientific theories. However, if you just like to throw out the idea of evidence as fake clout in online debates we shouldn't bother. Anyway, this video from a status update by DogOnPorch is worth watching on that subject.  Sorry, I don't know how to quote status updates.

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10 hours ago, Slick said:

Just remember my position about not believing in your god but, not stating absolute knowledge of its nonexistence,

 

Yep.  I'll remember that you're not a Christian.  But that's not what the discussion is about, is it? 

 

 

 

 

Quote

........not stating absolute knowledge of its nonexistence,

"I don't think he exists.....but I don't really know that."

 

You can't do without this explanation. :D   It just has to tag behind your claim - like the cart to your horse.  They come together.

You are agnostic.   You only think you're atheist. 

The confused one........that's how I'll always remember you. :)

Edited by betsy

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On 8/13/2018 at 5:34 AM, betsy said:

I'm the claimant.  To me, it is.  And I'd given some evidences to corroborate my claim.

 

You, on the other hand, have nothing at all to back up your claim that God's existence isn't a fact.  Yours is just your opinion.

Your opinion is  not a fact.

You are correct.  Nor you or I can provide absolute proof that God does, or does not exist. And yes my opinion is not fact. And your claim that God exists is nothing more than an opinion.

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2 hours ago, betsy said:

You are agnostic.   You only think you're atheist. 

Like I have shown you with definitions and examples, I am both agnostic and atheist. As GostHacked mentioned we cannot provide absolute proof that untestable claims like gods do or do not exist. Hence, I say I cannot know for sure if gods exist which makes me an agnostic. I also do not believe gods exist which makes me an atheist. 

It is irrational to claim to know something that cannot be known; which, is the position that most theists take. Ironic that you hold an irrational position when your ignorance has led you to label others as such. Try being a little more scientific and don't simply accept assertions fed to you by authority figures.

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6 hours ago, GostHacked said:

You are correct.  Nor you or I can provide absolute proof that God does, or does not exist. And yes my opinion is not fact. And your claim that God exists is nothing more than an opinion.

I'm not talking about proof.  I'm talking about evidence(s).  Big difference.

Atheism has nothing to stand on - whatsoever! 

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4 hours ago, Slick said:

Like I have shown you with definitions and examples, I am both agnostic and atheist. As GostHacked mentioned we cannot provide absolute proof that untestable claims like gods do or do not exist. Hence, I say I cannot know for sure if gods exist which makes me an agnostic. I also do not believe gods exist which makes me an atheist. 

It is irrational to claim to know something that cannot be known; which, is the position that most theists take. Ironic that you hold an irrational position when your ignorance has led you to label others as such. Try being a little more scientific and don't simply accept assertions fed to you by authority figures.

 

Agnostic......agnostic......agnostic.......egyptian.gif

 

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