Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

What is 'an Albertan', anyway?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 195
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I've heard somewhere that some people are 'proud to be Albertans'. No offense, but what is that supposed to mean? Proud to be [an inhabitant of a particular geographic area]??? I don't get it.

Oh. Was this for me?

Perhaps "Proud to be an Albertan!" is the kinder, gentler, positive-feeling Canadian equivalent of "Don't mess with Texas." :)

If you don't think Albertans actually exist, perhaps you could take it up with MapleSyrup and Caesar, who never miss an opportunity to needle anything Albertan.

If Alberta is just a [geographic area] ... couldn't one likewise make the same argument about Canada? Given Alberta and Canada both as political and geographic entities... I find that Alberta is the one that is more real to me, the one I more strongly identify with. The Canada I see in the national media doesn't really respond very closely to my day to day life; I don't identify with it that strongly at all.

Does that answer your question?

-kimmy

Link to post
Share on other sites
No offense, but what is that supposed to mean? Proud to be [an inhabitant of a particular geographic area]??? I don't get it.
Are you proud of other members of your family when they do well?
Interesting, I don't believe I have ever said that I was proud to be an Ontarian (?) But have said many times that I am damn proud to be Canadian...
*Sigh* Canada in a nutshell.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps "Proud to be an Albertan!" is the kinder, gentler, positive-feeling Canadian equivalent of "Don't mess with Texas."
:D I love it.

Kimmy has it right. Being a proud Albertan is something that differentiates us from the rest of the country. We are very different in many ways. I guess you could say we are a "distinct society". I don't think we want to be linked to positions taken by the national government in many cases. I remember visiting parliament in Ottawa when I was younger and feeling like it was all foreign. It didn't really feel like my country, I guess I felt excluded as an Albertan. I also felt pretty small when they showed a lazer light film on the parliment building that had some subtle Alberta bashing in it by portraying us as bigots. I don't identify myself with Canada but neither completely with the US. Alberta is just right. I love this place!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I'm so proud that my folks chose to raise me on this particular part of the earth, as oppossed to locations several kilometers north, south east or west. I'm proud of all the things other people who were also born within the arbitray boundaries of this political/economic creation known as "Alberta" have accomplished, even though I had absolutely nothing to with them. I'm proud that the accident of geography that led to my birth and residency here also coincided with the geological phenomenon that led to large deposits of oil being formed within those same boundaries (even though such events occurred long before Alberta even existed), which has resulted in this entity's prosperity.

I don't think we want to be linked to positions taken by the national government in many cases.

Hmm. I'm a born'n'bred Albertan. I've been walking this part of the earth for a lot longer than you. I disagree with a great many of your political beliefs and the beliefs of many Albertans. Does that make me less of an Albertan because I don't fit the stereotype?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I'm so proud that my folks chose to raise me on this particular part of the earth, as oppossed to locations several kilometers north, south east or west. I'm proud of all the things other people who were also born within the arbitray boundaries of this political/economic creation known as [Canada] have accomplished, even though I had absolutely nothing to with them. I'm proud that the accident of geography that led to my birth and residency here also coincided with the geological phenomenon that led to large deposits of [resources] being formed within those same boundaries (even though such events occurred long before [Canada] even existed), which has resulted in this entity's prosperity.
I like it.

BD I've substituted Canada for Alberta in the hopes that maybe you'll send this in as a letter to editors of newspapers across Canada so maybe we can lay to rest this silly issue of parading the Maple Leaf around the world on our backpacks etc. :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I’m not sure if this is a good idea but whatever. Something about Black Dog’s message made me feel I had to answer it, so here goes.

My mother’s grandparents were ethnic Ukrainians who left Russia in the late nineteenth century. Their religious community had faced persecution throughout Europe, and when Queen Victoria invited them to settle Canada’s prairies and guaranteed their religious freedom, they accepted. They did as they promised, carving chunks out of the wilderness, establishing settlements, and playing an important part in building the Canadian prairies that we know today. My mother’s grandparents, and her parents, were part of a community that settled in the far north of Alberta, somewhere between the Buffalo Head Hills and Caribou Mountains. Although many of them like my mom have integrated into mainstream Canada, some of them still live very closely by the beliefs that brought them to Canada, and you can still find their communities throughout the prairies.

My dad’s parents were born to Swedish immigrants who had settled near Thief River Falls, Minnesota. Early in the twentieth century their families headed north, stopping briefly in Manitoba, and in Saskatchewan, and central Alberta, before heading even farther north. They purchased land not too far from where mom’s ancestors had settled, and broke ground. Things were not easy in that part of the country. My dad’s family wasn’t able to build a permanent home on their land for quite some time. They lived in a temporary sod house built on the land during the summer so they could work on the farm; during winters my dad and his sisters all boarded with families in a town some ways away so that they could attend school; the sisters worked as nannies. It was not until the 1960s that they had a permanent home on their land; it was not until 1967 that electricity had reached their home.

My grandparents didn’t just come to Alberta, they built Alberta. I’m proud that my parents and grandparents accomplished so much and overcame so much when they settled this province. I am proud of what they built. And I don’t have a lot of patience for those who would disparage it, especially those who have no idea what it is that they’re disparaging. No, my grandparents didn’t put the oil in the ground themselves, but yes, I still feel that my grandparents and my parents helped build the province I live in today. The word “legacy” gets thrown a lot, but in this instance, I really do feel it applies. The province I live in today was built for me by my grandparents. How could I not feel a sense of personal attachment to it?

And of course they weren’t just building Alberta, they were building Canada. The land they broke changed from wilderness to settled land, the roads and communities they established now host new industry in the north and contribute to the prosperity of all Canada. My ancestors were not French or English, but they helped build this country in a very tangiable way. This is why many Albertans, myself included, have so little interest in the “Two founding peoples” type of rhetoric that seems to dominate political thought in this country. It doesn’t reflect the country I see around me, it doesn’t reflect the part of Canada that my ancestors built, and it doesn’t reflect my ancestors who worked so hard to build this part of Canada.

So there you go. I don’t know if the Black Dogs and Terrible Sweals of the world will understand or relate to what I’ve written here, and I can live with that. I’ve tried to explain my feelings as best I can, and that’s all I can do. Think of it what you wish.

-kimmy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are we going after people because they are proud to be albertan? I mean if someone said they were proud to be a quebecer, I have a feeling many people would not give them the same kind of negative response. I am proud to be Canadian and think it is a great place to live, even more so I think British colubia is a great place to live despite our premier, and I evne think Vancouver is a great city and considering it is consistently ranked as one of the top three cities in the world, I am not alone. As long as people don't start supporting sepratist movements because <insert province here> is so good, I have no problem with people being proud to be anything. I belive the statement of the year is, to each his/her own.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kommy:

I understand very well what you say: I understand also that your view is (as expressed in that) somewhat insular. There is a much largwer picture.

I came to Canada from elsewhere, but my wife's maternal ancestors came in the 16th. century to an area that has been treated with contempt by some of your political leaders. O think they and their descendants have been building Canada for quite a lot longer than any Albertan. Many are now in Alberta building that province.

I don't see any "bashing" of Albertans most of whom are Ontarians or Newfoundlanders or..... who have moved to Alberta. The trouble with Alberta is the image of arrogance and superiority that is projected by some of its citizens and, unfortunately, defended by many Albertans in a eflexive retaliation.

The major problem behind it all is the wealth of resources that is provincially owned. Obviously all resources should be a national endowment but some provinces guard a constitutional mistake and keep the rewards of serendipity for their own.

Albertans are no harder working or more astute than any others. Some confuse luck with genius.

Link to post
Share on other sites
My grandparents didn’t just come to Alberta, they built Alberta. I’m proud that my parents and grandparents accomplished so much and overcame so much when they settled this province. I am proud of what they built. And I don’t have a lot of patience for those who would disparage it, especially those who have no idea what it is that they’re disparaging. No, my grandparents didn’t put the oil in the ground themselves, but yes, I still feel that my grandparents and my parents helped build the province I live in today.

And you should be proud, Kimmy (or kommy?).

I am transplanted to Alberta, and while I love it here, my roots and my history are in BC. In the valley I grew up in we can trace our family back to the great-greats and beyond. Of course, I don't have any back to the 16th century, or anything really remarkable like that, but I still consider my family history to be considerable.

As for not bashing Albertans, this site does just that. Have you seen any site asking why anyone would be pround to be from Manitoba? Or Ontario? And if I felt like doing the search I know I have seen numerous instances of snide remarks about Alberta and how we "should" separate etc etc.

Shakeyhands Posted on Jan 23 2005, 02:45 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I asure you that we are not jealous of Alberta and when we want the oil revenues, we'll take them.

Sigh :blink:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Shakeyhands Posted on Jan 23 2005, 06:34 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well thats the sort of reply you wanted isn't it Shacky?

How else to feel better about your assinine comment about the revenues in the first place? 

Umm, no. I wasn't specifically looking for any sort of reply Shakey.

As I mentioned, I am not even an Albertan. BC born and raised, so if I were to have any prejudices they would lie a little farther west.

As for my comment being "assinine" (sic), I think a quick search of this and other Canadian forums would probably enlighten you. There is Alberta bashing, and it is due to the fact that Alberta is currently booming and enjoying a supposedly balanced budget. Envy is human nature.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Kommy:
:blink:
I understand very well what you say: I understand also that your view is (as expressed in that) somewhat insular. There is a much largwer picture.

I came to Canada from elsewhere, but my wife's maternal ancestors came in the 16th. century to an area that has been treated with contempt by some of your political leaders. O think they and their descendants have been building Canada for quite a lot longer than any Albertan. Many are now in Alberta building that province.

Certainly. And I don't dismiss their contributions at all. I don't see why "Proud to be an Albertan!" would be taken as a slight against other Canadians. Has anything in my writing given you reason to think that by "Proud to be an Albertan!" I mean "I'm better than you"?

I'm not saying that I think the length of one's family tree within this country makes anyone "more" Canadian than anyone else. I mention my family history not by way of claiming any kind of superiority. My message, the point of that whole spiel, was to try to express my feelings of why I'm very attached to this province. At a time when many parts of Canada were already settled and had growing economies and decent standards of living, my grandparents decided to keep going west with the goal of creating something new.

I took Terrible Sweal's message to be asking "why would someone identify with Alberta rather than with Canada?" I've tried to address that question with my little story. I don't know if other Canadians know about people like my grandparents; I've certainly never seen any indication to indicate they do. Canadians seem to think the history of the west goes something like: French voyageurs with canoes and beaver pelts... then nothing for a long time... then Louis Riel... then nothing for a long time... then Chinese slave-labourers were blown to pieces building the railroads... then more nothing... then provincial status for the prairies... then nothing for a long time... then oil was discovered... and now it's happy-land. Perhaps the history of the prairies is just too boring to be of much interest to the rest of the country. Or perhaps it doesn't fit conveniently into the Coles Notes version of Canada that has (1) Aboriginal People, (2) French People, (3) British People, and (4) "other."

Terrible Sweal's message seems to imply that he feels "an Albertan" is just somebody who lives between 4 straight lines and one squiggly line on the map. I disagree. I have a personal history that's tied specifically to this region and to no other part of Canada. And my grandparents, both sets, have stories unique to this part of the country. My people didn't "come over on the Mayflower" (figuratively speaking) but I feel that there is a history as unique and distinctive as the Quebecois or Newfoundlanders.

And... as others have mentioned in this thread... have you ever heard anyone ask "what is a Quebecois?" or "what is a Newfie?" or why anyone would be proud to be that? They're proud and visible people wherever they're transplanted to, and I wouldn't imagine most Canadians have any difficulty with the idea that they have the right to be. So I found the question that launched this thread (and the possible assumptions behind it) a little perplexing.

I don't see any "bashing" of Albertans most of whom are Ontarians or Newfoundlanders or..... who have moved to Alberta.

That might highlight the silliness of "bashing" Albertans, but does not show that it doesn't happen.

-kimmy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kimmy:

I did not mean my atatement to be at all a criticism of your feelings or heritage: quite the opposite. I think your post is the shell of a fine story; one that I think you could write - or a film.

However, the inference was, to me, anyway, a little insular in that you did now go into the root of Albertans and their relationship to Canadianism. That is the failing of much of Canada as can be seen with every post of Bakinin.

Once, in a piece I wrote in the Montreal Star, respondents wrote that I had given the best definition of Canadianism they had seen. Flattering though it was, I did nothing but put out something opposite to what you say. That is, that I was not bounded by any geographical dimension and my "provincialism" was a tendency to favour locals in competition with "outsiders."

What those who are now Albertans seem to forget - or never knew - is that Alberta was nurtured and financed by the Central Provinces into maturity and that it enjoys its present prosperity as a consequence of a miswriting of the Constitution that has allowed the retention of its blessings for its own sole use. The intent of Confederation was quite different.

I sometimes think that those who say Canada is not a real country may be correct and that it will not be so until the provincialists are routed.

Canada is the only so fragmented country in the world. And, while just about every nation that has any claim to being modern is becoming more centralized under the pressure of the necessities of education, health and a few other matters, Canada is moving in the other direction.

This is an unhealthy change and, I think, the ownership of resources is a strong factor in this trend.

You are right that not many ask "what is a Quebecois," etc. With good reason too in the case of Quebec That would bring to the fore the ethnic intolerance in Quebec. It would also be very disturbing to many "Quebecois" to discover that they are far from being an ethnically pure French offshoot - very far.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What this country needs is a federal government that respects the constituion, not the lawless federal government it has. That there are two remaining contributing provinces left is testiment to the failure of centralized government that oversteps its authority. The sooner it disintegrates the better off we'll all be.

See the canadian cow for eureka's version of centralized government.

http://www.truckspeaker.com/img96.gif

COLUMNIST

Wed, January 19, 2005

Milking the Canadian cow

By JANET L. JACKSON -- Calgary Sun

With Newfoundland flying the Canadian flag again, should we be happy to see the Maple leaf re-hoisted and continue to be upset that Premier Danny Williams dared defy an arrogant Ottawa by using our national symbol?

** Remainder of post removed due to copyright infrintment **

Edited by Greg
Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears that you are as ignorant of this subject as you are about climate change. Perhaps you should have spent that fifteen years improving your mind instead of searching for a cartoon.

If you would look at the equalization process, you would discover (perhaps you wouldn't since it does not fit your ingrained prejudice) that, even if incomes and wealth doubled everywhere, there would still be only two provinces contributing to equalization. It has only to do with equalizing standards.

There is no cow and no milking and, for the rest of your "centralizing," only an egregious ignorance of every aspect of political life could be so duped.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It appears that you are as ignorant of this subject as you are about climate change. Perhaps you should have spent that fifteen years improving your mind instead of searching for a cartoon.

If you would look at the equalization process, you would discover (perhaps you wouldn't since it does not fit your ingrained prejudice) that, even if incomes and wealth doubled everywhere, there would still be only two provinces contributing to equalization. It has only to do with equalizing standards.

There is no cow and no milking and, for the rest of your "centralizing," only an egregious ignorance of every aspect of political life could be so duped.

If you would look at the equalization process

Oh i have, and like everyone else who has looked at it, except for those on the dole end, it should really be called an extortion process and a stick to keep the provinces in line. However theft by any other name is still theft.

Link to post
Share on other sites
However, the inference was, to me, anyway, a little insular in that you did now go into the root of Albertans and their relationship to Canadianism. That is the failing of much of Canada as can be seen with every post of Bakinin.

I've abstained from going into the resources and revenues discussion. First off, we've done it before in a number of threads in the 6 months or so I've participated in this forum. And secondly because I believe it is a red herring in this instance.

I recall seeing a series of polls on a Canadian website (I believe it was either the Globe and Mail or the National Post; I can't recall and have been unable to locate the pages I am thinking of) which surveyed Canadians about attitudes towards the country. One of the questions posed was "Do you see yourself as a Canadian first, or a resident of your province first." In every province except two, the results were close, with in some cases "province first" having a slight lead, and in others "Canada first" was slightly ahead. The two provinces where the question achieved lopsided results were (predictably) Quebec, and (perhaps also predictably) Ontario. In Quebec, "province first" had a strong majority. Ontario, on the other hand, was the only province where "Canada first" scored a decisive win.

Why might that be? Earlier in this thread, Shakeyhands said "I don't believe I have ever said that I was proud to be an Ontarian (?) But have said many times that I am damn proud to be Canadian..." and August replied "*Sigh* Canada in a nutshell. " I believe that's pretty much it.

An Ontarian (or at least the ones in southern/eastern Ontario, the large majority) can turn on the national news and watch his local weather forecast. He speaks, and the government listens. Government in Canada is dominated by southern Ontario. Media in Canada is dominated by southern Ontario. The Canada he sees in the media corresponds to the Canada around him. The Canada he read about in school corresponds to the Canada around him. Of course he identifies with Canada: the Canada the rest of us only see in the media is just day to day life for him. He might not even recognize that it's not so in the rest of the country.

An Albertan, on the other hand, probably relies on local news sources rather than national news sources, for an obvious reason: national news sources do a shoddy job of covering events outside of Toronto and Ottawa. An Albertan will turn on election night coverage, patiently sit through an hour of 3 talking heads from Toronto and one from Montreal discussing "the Quebec Question", and catch local results during the "late night wrap up" portion of the show. An Albertan rather watch American TV programs as Canadian-made ones, because while neither is remotely relevant to his day to day life, at least the American shows are entertaining. The previous Prime Minister only set foot in Alberta a few times during his entire reign of terror, and said that he didn't like to do business with Albertans because "dey are diff'rent"... and had to explain that he was joking because based on his track record he might well have been serious. That red blotch in the middle of the flag? An Albertan will have to move elsewhere to see one of those on a tree, because they don't grow anywhere near here. Yeah, that's a great symbol for the country, truly national.

Easy to say "don't be provincial! we're all Canadian! Group hug!" but actions speak louder than words, and Canada has given Albertans little reason to feel like real partners in Confederation. It all just seems like it belongs to somebody else; I can't really relate to it.

At any rate, I feel that trying to relate the issue to resource revenues is off the mark; the poll I mentioned indicated that people in other provinces (aside from Ontario) were as likely as Albertans to be "province first" people. While I don't advocate blowing a quarter-billion dollars on advertising to convince Canadians outside central Canada that they matter, I do think the concept of Canada has image problems elsewhere in Canada, not just in Quebec. In Quebec it might be antipathy; in other parts of Canada it's more like apathy.

-kimmy

Link to post
Share on other sites

originally posted by Kimmy

Why might that be? Earlier in this thread, Shakeyhands said "I don't believe I have ever said that I was proud to be an Ontarian (?) But have said many times that I am damn proud to be Canadian..." and August replied "*Sigh* Canada in a nutshell. " I believe that's pretty much it.

An Ontarian (or at least the ones in southern/eastern Ontario, the large majority) can turn on the national news and watch his local weather forecast. He speaks, and the government listens. Government in Canada is dominated by southern Ontario. Media in Canada is dominated by southern Ontario. The Canada he sees in the media corresponds to the Canada around him. The Canada he read about in school corresponds to the Canada around him. Of course he identifies with Canada: the Canada the rest of us only see in the media is just day to day life for him. He might not even recognize that it's not so in the rest of the country.

And it goes on.... I don't need to repost the whole thing me thinks.

I see your point Kimmy, a perspective I have never thought of to be sure, perhpas because the majority of the population of Canada is centered around S. Ontario and Quebec (I assume this) and that these are the areas that orignally formed what was Canada, long before the permanent settlements in the West, and the fact that in the grand scheme of things we are a young country, we tend to see this area with its dirth of media as the center of the country... perhaps. The areas you speak of have a different purpose than the areas elsewhere, no?

Things as they are, be it broken or an affront to the West (or other regions), what do you see as a reasonable response? Oh are the other regions to be treated? What is the solution here?

Did I make any sense here?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps living in Ontario gives me a wider perspective and less incentive to believe the rantings of the local demagogues and parochial media outlets. The view of Ontario controlling the country politically is far from correct. From the Bennett government down to Chretien, Ontario never had a plurality of seats in Parliament. Indeed, there was some resentment in Ontario for most of that time over the lack of say in national affairs as Ontario played the "honest broker" to Confederation.

Media, too, has never been dominated by Ontario: at least since other provinces matured - a doubtful proposition in some cases. Conrad Black was a Quebecker: Asper is a Manitoban. Until these two came on the scene, newspapers had free reign and TV and Radio were regionally autonomous.

In the many years that I spent away from Ontario; in Quebec, B.C., and Alberta, with shorter sojourns in a couple of others, I never experienced the distance from national affairs and news that you seem to find. Coverage was quite adequate unless one listened only to certain talk show hosts or confined one's reading to the Alberta Report or Le Devoir. I never felt anything less than a citizen of a much larger idea. Most of my friends were the same.

Quebec was different. It had a French language press devoted to proselytizing the Church and an education system and community institutions whose raison d'etre was to misinform its public inorder to maintain its supposed "uniqeness." English speaking Quebeckers - who, until recently, could have formed the third largest province in Canada, were open to the country as a whole. They are now the alienated and the only group in Canada with a valid claim to alienation from the centre.

You have an odd perception of Canadian history as taught in schools. BTW, did you know that, unless there has been a recent change, it is taught in only four provinces. Of course it will be heavily slanted to the centre. Most of our history has been confined to there. Most of the rest of the country is too new to have much to contribute other than the explorations of men from the centre (some of those are not taught in quebec where the preference is to pretend that English had little part in the exploration and settlement of Canada).The history of the West in particular, has been until recently no more than an extension of the centre.

Your resentment of election night coverage I find interesting. I find it somewhat different. It is tiresome listening to the complaints of Westerners and the discussion of how it is playing out in Western Canada. That, too, is a straw man of the Western politicians.

You were not around during the flag debates, I believe. That "Red Blotch" was not Ontario's choice: not the choice of any that I know of. It was merely a compromise that, it was thought, would not offend too many. It did offend possibly the majority of Ontarians. However, the West was satisfied and French Quebec did not have the hated British symbols so it was imposed on Ontario which did not have the political clout proportionate to its weight, to reject the tree.

What has to be done to make Alberta feel a "partner in Confederation." Would making Ralph a king in fact as well as in his mind do it? Alberta has jurisdictional authority -as does every province - such as no regional government in the world has. It has exclusive ownership of its resources to the detriment of the national interest. It was financially supported by Central Canada until it was able to stand on its own feet. The rebellious child act does not cut it any longer: it needs to grow up.

Resources can not be left out of this. Resources go along with healthcare, education, and civil rights as exclusive provincial jurisdictions that should not be and could not be in an nation that boasts of its committment to equality: or to a nation that wishes to prosper in the modern world. The national interest of Canad is more a provincial concern gere than a national and, quite possibly, is the principal factor in Canada's declining performance, economically as well as its reducing influence.

I am in complete agreement with you that Canada, as a nation, has image problems in most of Canada - including Ontario. That is because it is not a nation in its governance: it is a country of disparate and aquabbling regions.

That image problem will not be remedied until that political clique that seeks to profit from discontent is buried for all time and Canada returns to nationhood. That means spreading the truth and removing from the provinces the authority over those national jurisdictions that the Constitution never intended them to have.

Resources cannot be left out of this.

I am not surprised at the various identificatios of the citizens of some provinces. It follows from what I posit: that jurisdictional authority in Canada is too decentralized. It is not unnatural to identify with a regional government when that government has authority over all those things that are close to a citizens' daily existence. Therein is Canada's greatest problem: no local government can properly administer those affairs without losing the benefits of exchanges with other parts of the same national entity.

Link to post
Share on other sites
There is Alberta bashing, and it is due to the fact that Alberta is currently booming and enjoying a supposedly balanced budget. Envy is human nature.

Not in my opinion. Alberta "bashing" comes in part from Klein's outbursts and attempts to weaken our Health Care system in Canada. The rest comes from Albertans who cry for separation. Like Quebeckers who whine to separate whenever they don't get their little butts kissed; Albertans who do the same are a hinderance to our becoming a strong viable country with an influence on the world stage. Like the little boys who own the bat and ball running home with his bat and ball whenever he doesn't get his own way. poor sports and whiners stop the rest from performing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Announcements




  • Tell a friend

    Love Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...