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Ford announced this week that for several months people in Ontario will have to buy their pot from a government monopoly while a system is worked out to eventually allow private sector participation to emerge. I hadn't thought much about the issue because I don't use pot, but after reading a letter on the topic in today's Toronto Star I started to wonder about the risks associated with any public role in the industry. Presumably, people who order online from the government will have to provide identifying information like names and addresses and a database of some sort will be generated. But can we trust that customer privacy will be protected? I'm skeptical about this. Imagine, for instance, if American authorities demand access to such a list in return for, say, a trade deal. Even though some states have legalized pot, the U.S. federal government doesn't recognize its legality and foreigners, including Canadians, can be banned from entering the U.S. merely for admitting to past pot use, however incidental. After Harper handed over our police and court databases to the U.S. to assuage American security concerns and ease trade flow, a friend who'd paid a pot possession fine almost 30 years prior was turned back at the U.S. border and had to go through a lengthy and expensive process to get a temporary entry waiver, which he must now renew on a regular basis in order to travel to the U.S., and he says that even with the waiver he's still hassled at the border. Personally, I don't trust giving much personal information to government agencies. Should we be concerned about this new government run pot regime?

Edited by turningrite
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Good advice....if I was a concerned pothead, I would only straw purchase through another buyer to avoid government/commercial data collection.    This will create a new kind of illegal dealer network.

The pathetic roll out of this in Ontario only proves that the black market will be still very viable going forward.  Perhaps in April when people can actually go to a storefront, it will change.

It appears that the Ontario government has pulled a "fast one" on pot smokers. There are no more illegal dope stores so that now, it's actually more difficult for people to obtain their drugs than bef

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2 minutes ago, turningrite said:

.... Personally, I don't trust giving information to government agencies. Should we concerned about this new government run pot regime?

 

Not if entry into a foreign nation is a main concern.   The U.S. (and any other sovereign nation) can deny entry to Canadians for any reason...or no reason at all.

I realize that some Canadians feel that cross-border travel to the United States should be a Charter Right, but that is just the dope/pot talking.

Canada criminalized cannabis before the United States at the federal level.

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not if entry into a foreign nation is a main concern.   The U.S. (and any other sovereign nation) can deny entry to Canadians for any reason...or no reason at all.

I realize that some Canadians feel that cross-border travel to the United States should be a Charter Right, but that is just the dope/pot talking.

Canada criminalized cannabis before the United States at the federal level.

Most Canadians are quite aware that they have no inherent "right" to enter the U.S., which is why I believe they should be very wary about providing information about their use of pot to any government agency or corporation.

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Just now, turningrite said:

Most Canadians are quite aware that they have no inherent "right" to enter the U.S., which is why I believe they should be very wary about providing information about their use of pot to any government agency or corporation.

 

The reverse is true as well...Americans are routinely denied entry into Canada because of shared database records.   Anybody attempting to cross an international border should be prepared for denied entry, and Big Data will only become more pervasive because of government and commercial reach.

I am not a pothead (have never used)...but I understand the libertarian argument for legalization.   Such conviction (pun intended) comes with consequences, especially for those who distribute and traffic illegally.  

The border agent game for improved entry odds is best played with honesty, no possession of contraband, and cooperation.   Buying dope from a government LCBO will leave some digital trace unless a straw purchase is made, but then one would have to keep track of their lies.  

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20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The border agent game for improved entry odds is best played with honesty, no possession of contraband, and cooperation.   Buying dope from a government LCBO will leave some digital trace unless a straw purchase is made, but then one would have to keep track of their lies.  

I believe that for the first several months following legalization the Ontario government will sell pot exclusively via an online sales system, which suggests that minimally names and addresses will have to be provided. It's my understanding that the LCBO will not be involved in the process. So, my advice to those who use pot is to beware providing personal details to any government agency or corporation. Wait until it's known how the private sales market will work.

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3 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I believe that for the first several months following legalization the Ontario government will sell pot exclusively via an online sales system, which suggests that minimally names and addresses will have to be provided. It's my understanding that the LCBO will not be involved in the process. So, my advice to those who use pot is to beware providing personal details to any government agency or corporation. Wait until it's known how the private sales market will work.

 

Good advice....if I was a concerned pothead, I would only straw purchase through another buyer to avoid government/commercial data collection.    This will create a new kind of illegal dealer network....how ironic.

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I don't think anyone would use this Online service. Probably just a way to say, see it's legal!

I wouldn't want the government to know my pot buying habits. I had never thought of the database being shared with the US as a potential problem, but I can see that it could be. 

Most will continue using the black market and the only way to stop that is to have police crack down on the black market, but that's just more examples of prohibition, if the government can't meet the demand, the black market will flourish regardless. 

This has always been my concern with this. Right now pot is effectively decriminalized. Cops won't waste the time or money prosecuting simple pot possession. But now that the government gets a cut, I can see how enforcement will increase. 

This Online only period could probably be a grace period until they're able to get a storefront model going and the "effective decriminalization" model would still be largely intact. Then when storefronts are established, a more stringent enforcement method will be introduced. 

This is why Wynne's proposal of 40 storefronts was extraordinarily stupid. You expect people to travel to another city to get cannabis when they already know a guy? 

Edited by Boges
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On 8/17/2018 at 12:50 PM, Boges said:

I don't think anyone would use this Online service. Probably just a way to say, see it's legal!

I wouldn't want the government to know my pot buying habits. I had never thought of the database being shared with the US as a potential problem, but I can see that it could be.

I watched a TV news item the other day indicating the government has responded to confidentiality concerns, saying the online sales system will be set up to ensure that privacy rights apply. But call me skeptical.

Edited by turningrite
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On 8/24/2018 at 8:55 AM, turningrite said:

I watched a TV news item the other day indicating the government has responded to confidentiality concerns, saying the online sales system will be set up to ensure that privacy rights apply. But call me skeptical.

When you cross the border they know everything about you. That includes everything you have done electronically. The difference is they won't admit to it. 

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Ford announced this week that for several months people in Ontario will have to buy their pot from a government monopoly while a system is worked out to eventually allow private sector participation to emerge. I hadn't thought much about the issue because I don't use pot, but after reading a letter on the topic in today's Toronto Star I started to wonder about the risks associated with any public role in the industry. Presumably, people who order online from the government will have to provide identifying information like names and addresses and a database of some sort will be generated. But can we trust that customer privacy will be protected? I'm skeptical about this. Imagine, for instance, if American authorities demand access to such a list in return for, say, a trade deal. Even though some states have legalized pot, the U.S. federal government doesn't recognize its legality and foreigners, including Canadians, can be banned from entering the U.S. merely for admitting to past pot use, however incidental. After Harper handed over our police and court databases to the U.S. to assuage American security concerns and ease trade flow, a friend who'd paid a pot possession fine almost 30 years prior was turned back at the U.S. border and had to go through a lengthy and expensive process to get a temporary entry waiver, which he must now renew on a regular basis in order to travel to the U.S., and he says that even with the waiver he's still hassled at the border. Personally, I don't trust giving much personal information to government agencies. Should we be concerned about this new government run pot regime?

Paranoia. To take an example, in some jurisdictions, you must scan both your ID and fingerprint to enter a casino. If you're registered on a self-exclusion list, the gate will not open for you, otherwise it will. Either way though, the machine will not save your information so no one can know whether you went to the casino or not.

I presume that any such list in Canada would work the same way. It would be there to determine whether you can legally purchase weed, not record your every attempt to do so.

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Not if entry into a foreign nation is a main concern.   The U.S. (and any other sovereign nation) can deny entry to Canadians for any reason...or no reason at all.

I realize that some Canadians feel that cross-border travel to the United States should be a Charter Right, but that is just the dope/pot talking.

Canada criminalized cannabis before the United States at the federal level.

Interesting. In Canada, while a CBSA officer has the authority to decide who can or cannot enter the country other than those who have an inherent right to do so like Canadian citizens, they are still subject to certain rules requiring them to provide a rationale for refusal of entry and any person can appeal the decision on request. This is to prevent officers from basing their decisions on race, religious, or other discrimination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine the US has some kind of system in place to prevent such abuses too. I can't imagine that the officers are just given carte blanche to refuse entry on a whim.

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Paranoia. To take an example, in some jurisdictions, you must scan both your ID and fingerprint to enter a casino. If you're registered on a self-exclusion list, the gate will not open for you, otherwise it will. Either way though, the machine will not save your information so no one can know whether you went to the casino or not.

I presume that any such list in Canada would work the same way. It would be there to determine whether you can legally purchase weed, not record your every attempt to do so.

You seem to place an inordinate amount of faith in the ability of technology to protect personal information and privacy. But is it reasonable to be so optimistic on this front?

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You seem to place an inordinate amount of faith in the ability of technology to protect personal information and privacy. But is it reasonable to be so optimistic on this front?

The government could easily pass an act requiring the machines to be programmed to not save the information. In other words, once it's determined your eligibility to buy it, it could then sell it to you or refuse you but then automatically delete your information once it's fulfilled its task.

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....Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine the US has some kind of system in place to prevent such abuses too. I can't imagine that the officers are just given carte blanche to refuse entry on a whim.

 

The U.S. has a lengthy complaint/redress application process after entry is denied, but entry is still not guaranteed.   Cannabis purchase, distribution, and use would certainly be valid grounds for denying entry into the United States, as is lying to a border control officer about such matters.

https://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip

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On 8/16/2018 at 2:26 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not if entry into a foreign nation is a main concern.   The U.S. (and any other sovereign nation) can deny entry to Canadians for any reason...or no reason at all.

I realize that some Canadians feel that cross-border travel to the United States should be a Charter Right, but that is just the dope/pot talking.

Canada criminalized cannabis before the United States at the federal level.

And we'll legalize it on the federal level before the USA.  How does the rest of the USA deal with people from Colorado or California?

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And the US government will even go after people that are investing in the pot business. And those people may not even into using pot in any way.

Not only that there are investors in the USA that are already throwing a lot of money at a supply chain that will be in the USA and Canada.

So how is the USA going to deal with it's own citizens taking part in the exact same activities? Is the USA going to ban US citizens from going back to the US if they get a little high in Canada? 

I've already seen how fast the legalized pot business is growing. Pot advocacy groups are exploding in size.  I know a company that doubled their numbers this year and are expected to double them again by the end of this year. And half of those people are IN the USA.

Pot is treated worse than murder and child rape in the USA.  That's fucked.

Edited by GostHacked
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Canadian Lucien Rivard probably regrets crossing into Texas from Mexico with a roach some time in the mid 1960's. When he was finally convicted, he was sentenced to 20 years without parole. Lesson is, if you want to visit our wonderful neighbours, don't use pot. Or if you use pot, take your vacation at a ski hill in Canada. There is snow on Marmot. :D

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