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Zeitgeist

Should Energy East be revived and come to Ontario?

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The majority of Quebecers opposed the idea of building an oil pipeline from Alberta to Eastern Canada, where oil would be refined and shipped for export.  Since the majority of Canadians outside Quebec support the pipeline idea, should it be built as far east as Ontario, where oil can be refined and distributed to Ontarians, western Quebec, and Great Lakes states?  Keep in mind that Ontario represents 40% of the Canadian economy.  If refineries were built along the Trans Canada north of Toronto and not too far west of Ottawa, Canada could refine and ship Canadian oil through Montreal, Toronto, and farther afield.  Ontarians could reap a royalty, either shoring up the province's revenues or lowering gas prices at the pumps.  This is also about Canadian energy security.  If indigenous groups reap some of the benefits, they may also be in support.

Edited by Zeitgeist

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5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The majority of Quebecers opposed the idea of building an oil pipeline from Alberta to Eastern Canada, where oil would be refined and shipped for export.  Since the majority of Canadians outside Quebec support the pipeline idea, should it be built as far east as Ontario, where oil can be refined and distributed to Ontarians, western Quebec, and Great Lakes states?  Keep in mind that Ontario represents 40% of the Canadian economy.  If refineries were built along the Trans Canada north of Toronto and not too far west of Ottawa, Canada could refine and ship Canadian oil through Montreal, Toronto, and farther afield.  Ontarians could reap a royalty, either shoring up the province's revenues or lowering gas prices at the pumps.  This is also about Canadian energy security.  If indigenous groups reap some of the benefits, they may also be in support.

Quebecers didn't care into the demagogue mayor of Montreal started howling about it. The whole complaint against pipelines is moronic. They're by far the most efficient and safe way to move oil around. Do it by rail and you get Lac Megantic. Trudeau senior would have just pushed it through and told the whiners to F-off. 

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11 minutes ago, Argus said:

Trudeau senior would have just pushed it through and told the whiners to F-off. 

Like he twinned the railroad from coast to coast like he promised in the 1980 election.

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6 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Like he twinned the railroad from coast to coast like he promised in the 1980 election.

Trudeau made a lot of promises he didn't keep. But he didn't back down because of a fight. He simply never really planned to keep the promise in the first place.

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I think Trudeau Jr. and Ford should take up the pipeline cause.  Would be a great nonpartisan relationship builder between the province and the feds, a win win for sure. 

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Not sure it would be practical. A big reason for for Energy East was for export which means getting it to the east coast. Can large tankers use the St. Lawrence and would that be even harder to sell even if they could?

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Not sure it would be practical. A big reason for for Energy East was for export which means getting it to the east coast. Can large tankers use the St. Lawrence and would that be even harder to sell even if they could?

If tankers come in to unload gas they can come in to load it. And it would make us energy self-sufficient, with less to worry about Americans with their boot on our energy exports.

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If tankers come in to unload gas they can come in to load it. And it would make us energy self-sufficient, with less to worry about Americans with their boot on our energy exports.

I think it would be great not to need imports but I am wondering if Energy East is viable without a large export market. Will companies want to build it without such a market and will they want to go through all the BS involved in building (or not) a pipeline in Canada?

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On 9/17/2018 at 11:15 AM, Argus said:

If tankers come in to unload gas they can come in to load it. And it would make us energy self-sufficient, with less to worry about Americans with their boot on our energy exports.

You generally do NOT want to put refined product into a tanker.  It is usually sold down a product pipeline into major markets.  Energy East might provide for export, but in reality, we do not have that much in refining capacity and it would just displace imported oil used in the East.

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On 8/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, Zeitgeist said:

This is also about Canadian energy security.  If indigenous groups reap some of the benefits, they may also be in support.

This could also be about protecting the environment by not releasing tar sands oil into irresponsible markets and mostly conserving it for our own use.  That said, Canada is still a real laggard when it comes to running oil refineries without cocking things up as evidenced by a comparison to US oil industry standards and results.

Pollution from Canadian refineries an ‘embarrassment’ compared to U.S.

Quote

 

The key culprit behind the Canada/U.S. emissions gap, say experts, is less rigorous industry regulation and enforcement in Canada.

 

This is why I seriously balk at the idea of going nuclear or letting the government licence and regulate any aspect of shipping oil westward.

The key issue that needs to be addressed in all this of course is how to get a far better handle on our governance so it doesn't cock so many things up.  Without that we'll quite simply and inevitably spiral into oblivion.

Edited by eyeball
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5 hours ago, eyeball said:

This could also be about protecting the environment by not releasing tar sands oil into irresponsible markets and mostly conserving it for our own use.  That said, Canada is still a real laggard when it comes to running oil refineries without cocking things up as evidenced by a comparison to US oil industry standards and results.

Pollution from Canadian refineries an ‘embarrassment’ compared to U.S.

 

 

Delightful...this is the real Canada...real lack of investment and commitment...not the climate change window dressed version presented by the Trudeau government.   The U.S. has achieved lower emissions reductions than Canada without ever ratifying (and FAILING) with the Kyoto Protocol or current Paris Agreement actions.

Funnier still, this story reports U.S. refineries as the benchmark.     Can't make this stuff up !

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35 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Delightful...this is the real Canada...real lack of investment and commitment...not the climate change window dressed version presented by the Trudeau government.   The U.S. has achieved lower emissions reductions than Canada without ever ratifying (and FAILING) with the Kyoto Protocol or current Paris Agreement actions.

Funnier still, this story reports U.S. refineries as the benchmark.     Can't make this stuff up !

True on refineries, of which we don't have too many.  However, Ontario phased out coal power generation completely.  How many states have done that?

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9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

True on refineries, of which we don't have too many.  However, Ontario phased out coal power generation completely.  How many states have done that?

 

True on emissions reductions too...Canada is a laggard.

Several U.S. states have far less emissions than Ontario, regardless of which fossil fuel is used.

Also, Ontario taxpayers are back in the coal business:

 

Quote

Ontario taxpayers will soon be part-owners of one of the biggest coal-fired power plants in America west of the Mississippi River, making money off pollution in the U.S. Northwest that would be illegal to emit at home.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/reevely-how-ontario-is-getting-back-into-the-coal-power-business

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True on emissions reductions too...Canada is a laggard.

Several U.S. states have far less emissions than Ontario, regardless of which fossil fuel is used.

Also, Ontario taxpayers are back in the coal business:

 

 

This is why international rules are important.  We had a good cap and trade plan with Ontario, Quebec, and California.  DoFo dropped it.

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I honestly can't imagine any pipelines being built as long as Justin Trudeau(Gerald Butts) is Prime Minister. His government has put in place far too many barriers to overcome.It seems obvious that the reason for all those regulations is precisely to ensure that no pipelines will ever be built again in Canada.

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3 hours ago, ironstone said:

I honestly can't imagine any pipelines being built as long as Justin Trudeau(Gerald Butts) is Prime Minister. His government has put in place far too many barriers to overcome.It seems obvious that the reason for all those regulations is precisely to ensure that no pipelines will ever be built again in Canada.

Oh well its not like we don't live in a world that's destined to run on something else.  Trying to milk the transition period for whatever we can in the meantime reminds me of how the old whaling industry in Canada sputtered along on inertia alone until it finally sputtered out. It couldn't imagine doing anything else I guess.

Now there's a lodge built on the site of an a old whaling station hereabouts, catering to whale-watching amongst other things.

Edited by eyeball

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On 8/19/2018 at 5:04 PM, Zeitgeist said:

I think Trudeau Jr. and Ford should take up the pipeline cause.  Would be a great nonpartisan relationship builder between the province and the feds, a win win for sure. 

That is probably why it will not happen.

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On 12/9/2018 at 12:35 PM, ironstone said:

I honestly can't imagine any pipelines being built as long as Justin Trudeau(Gerald Butts) is Prime Minister. His government has put in place far too many barriers to overcome.It seems obvious that the reason for all those regulations is precisely to ensure that no pipelines will ever be built again in Canada.

I agree and I am a strong environmentalist. I think Trudeau is to frightened to admit his green opinions. Then again I believe a safe pipeline is possible. I worry about ships at sea not pipelines. Today's engineering makes pipelines safe unless it's attacked by a terrorist or I  an earthquake zone.

Edited by Rue

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On 12/9/2018 at 3:23 PM, eyeball said:

Oh well its not like we don't live in a world that's destined to run on something else.  Trying to milk the transition period for whatever we can in the meantime reminds me of how the old whaling industry in Canada sputtered along on inertia alone until it finally sputtered out. It couldn't imagine doing anything else I guess.

Now there's a lodge built on the site of an a old whaling station hereabouts, catering to whale-watching amongst other things.

Whale watching is amazing. You see them live, it's out of third world how majestic they are and how puny we are in comparison to their beauty.

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On 12/12/2018 at 3:21 PM, Rue said:

I agree and I am a strong environmentalist. I think Trudeau is to frightened to admit his green opinions. Then again I believe a safe pipeline is possible. I worry about ships at sea not pipelines. Today's engineering makes pipelines safe unless it's attacked by a terrorist or I  an earthquake zone.

The ranking in terms of safety would be:  Can/USA pipeline, current tanker, old tanker, pipeline in Africa, truck/trailer and finally, the worst way of all to move crude oil - rail.   What is also important is WHAT crude oil.  You can NOT ship Athabasca Oil Sands crude down a pipeline - it is far, far too viscous, so you either put it hot into a truck/trailer for sort trip, or heated trailer to unload after a few days, load that into a heated tank at the marine terminal and load from there into a heated ship.  OR: you dilute the heavy crude with naptha or some other light fraction or possibly even lighter crude.  You really DO NOT want to spill "dilbit" (dilluted bitumen) if it uses a light fraction for solvent.  Proper answer is to require only upgraded (synthetic crude) to be shipped beyond AB borders.

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On 12/9/2018 at 11:35 AM, ironstone said:

I honestly can't imagine any pipelines being built as long as Justin Trudeau(Gerald Butts) is Prime Minister. His government has put in place far too many barriers to overcome.It seems obvious that the reason for all those regulations is precisely to ensure that no pipelines will ever be built again in Canada.

I've said this from the beginning.  Buying Trans Mountain was simply a way for Trudeau to be able to control and derail the only pipeline project that had any hope of possibly being constructed.  In his mind it was a great way to play both sides of the fence by saying on one hand that he was doing something to champion the pipeline, and at the same time ensure an indefinite delay in the project.  Plus there was an added bonus that he got to waste another 5 billion hard-earned Canadian taxpayer dollars, something he excels at and is very anxious to do.

With Francois Legault declaring that there is no way a pipeline will be passing through Quebec, and Trudeau supporting and backing this declaration up on the weekend, it is clear that Energy East is dead as long as we have a Government intent on driving wedges between provinces and killing Western Canadian energy development.   

It's no wonder that Western Canadians find the hypocrisy infuriating... one province...Quebec, is more than happy to accept 66 percent of all equalization payments (a boost of 1.4 billion for next year), derived in no small part from oil revenues generated in the west, yet slam the door on infrastructure intended to support said resource development.  The  arrogant shortsightedness of this Quebec Premier and the overt divisiveness and incompetence of our PM is difficult to comprehend.

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On 12/12/2018 at 4:21 PM, Rue said:

I agree and I am a strong environmentalist. I think Trudeau is to frightened to admit his green opinions. Then again I believe a safe pipeline is possible. I worry about ships at sea not pipelines. Today's engineering makes pipelines safe unless it's attacked by a terrorist or I  an earthquake zone.

BC is an earthquake zone.

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We're not taking Alberta's dirty bitumen here in Ontario, and neither is Quebec, doesn't do anything for us, that Alberta oil is not for us, Alberta wants to ship it overseas, so we'll stick with our Arabian and Venezuelan supplies, we have no interest in doing business with Alberta, the Americans are who we do business with, Canadian Confederation doesn't work, never worked, and is never going to work, thus we have moved on from it for any practical purposes  long time ago.

Basically, Alberta is screwed, because contrary to the myth of Canada, Canada does not do business east-west, Canada only does business north-south, including Alberta who thought they had the Americans onside forever, but turns out the Americans have become their own oil producer, so now they are in competition with Alberta, not only do they not need Alberta's oil anymore, they are eager to land lock Alberta to box them out and ship American oil instead.

Edited by Dougie93

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