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Zeitgeist

Should Energy East be revived and come to Ontario?

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23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

We're not taking Alberta's dirty bitumen here in Ontario, and neither is Quebec, doesn't do anything for us, that Alberta oil is not for us, Alberta wants to ship it overseas, so we'll stick with our Arabian and Venezuelan supplies, we have no interest in doing business with Alberta, the Americans are who we do business with, Canadian Confederation doesn't work, never worked, and is never going to work, thus we have moved on from it for any practical purposes  long time ago.

Basically, Alberta is screwed, because contrary to the myth of Canada, Canada does not do business east-west, Canada only does business north-south, including Alberta who thought they had the Americans onside forever, but turns out the Americans have become their own oil producer, so now they are in competition with Alberta, not only do they not need Alberta's oil anymore, they are eager to land lock Alberta to box them out and ship American oil instead.

I’d rather Canada refine its own oil, supply its own market, and collect the royalties.  Let the Yanks create their own earthquakes and we’ll supply ourselves and world markets, including the Yanks. 

Edited by Zeitgeist

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’d rather Canada refine its own oil

Canada has a refinery in Edmonton and another in New Brunswick, but that's all you're going to get, and we here in Ontario and Quebec get all we need from overseas by way of New Brunswick, so f**k Alberta.

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Just now, Dougie93 said:

Canada has a refinery in Edmonton and another in New Brunswick, but that's all you're going to get, and we here in Ontario and Quebec get all we need from overseas by way of New Brunswick, so f**k Alberta.

I believe in nationalization of the oil sands and total energy independence.  

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I believe in nationalization of the oil sands and total energy independence.  

Well that's never going to happen, but since that is Venezuela's model, that never happening is a good thing.

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4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I believe in nationalization of the oil sands and total energy independence.  

You believe in communism and paying more for energy because "muh nationalism". Venezuela North is a bad idea.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

You believe in communism and paying more for energy because "muh nationalism". Venezuela North is a bad idea.

No.  I don’t mind private-public partnerships with private companies making some profit, but Norway should be the model.  The Norway people have over a trillion dollars at their disposal and enjoy the highest quality of life of any country. 

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

No.  I don’t mind private-public partnerships with private companies making some profit, but Norway should be the model.  The Norway people have over a trillion dollars at their disposal and enjoy the highest quality of life of any country. 

Not because of nationalized oil though, that holds them back. Norway should not be the model when it comes to energy, America should be. This ain't Scandinavia, it's North America, plan accoringly.

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2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Not because of nationalized oil though, that holds them back. Norway should not be the model when it comes to energy, America should be. This ain't Scandinavia, it's North America, plan accoringly.

Norway is a healthier society than the US.  Norway is the model.  Even Trump knows that.  

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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Norway is a healthier society than the US.  Norway is the model.  Even Trump knows that.  

That's why Trump ran on a Make America Norway platform.
:rolleyes:

The parts of the Norway model worth emulating are the free market aspects of the model, not the socialism.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That's why Trump ran on a Make America Norway platform.
:rolleyes:

The parts of the Norway model worth emulating are the free market aspects of the model, not the socialism.

Not really.  The happiness, health, wealth, education, and other human development indicators in Norway are very high.  Norway is much smaller, culturally homogeneous, and more energy rich per capita, so it’s hard to make America Norway.  Maybe apply some lessons from Norway though.  Canada is run closer to Norway, but I do think it’s easier in a smaller country.  

By the way, the US has a highly controlled economy.  The Federal Reserve will always backstop the companies deemed too big to fail.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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26 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada has a refinery in Edmonton and another in New Brunswick, but that's all you're going to get, and we here in Ontario and Quebec get all we need from overseas by way of New Brunswick, so f**k Alberta.

Canada has large refineries in Southern Ontario and Quebec as well as Edmonton and New Brunswick.  Ontario and Quebec are now getting most of the oil they refine from the prairies and the US, while New Brunswick is the only place where overseas oil is the major source.

 -k

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4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not really.  The happiness, health, wealth, education, and other human development indicators in Norway are very high.  Norway is much smaller, culturally homogeneous, and more energy rich per capita, so it’s hard to make America Norway.  Maybe apply some lessons from Norway though.  Canada is run closer to Norway, but I do think it’s easier in a smaller country. 

 

Norway was the biggest per-capita recipient of American Marshall Plan aid after WW2, and benefited from the rebuilding / protection of European nations/markets.

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40 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I believe in nationalization of the oil sands and total energy independence.  

What's the point of nationalizing them? You think these companies would operate more efficiently if run by government? Go look up Petro Canada for that little experiment.

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16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not really.  The happiness, health, wealth, education, and other human development indicators in Norway are very high.  Norway is much smaller, culturally homogeneous, and more energy rich per capita, so it’s hard to make America Norway.  Maybe apply some lessons from Norway though.  Canada is run closer to Norway, but I do think it’s easier in a smaller country. 

It's much easier in a small country with a tight-knit, homogenized population and a cultural tradition of hard work and responsibility.

Canada is no longer any of those things.

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4 minutes ago, Argus said:

It's much easier in a small country with a tight-knit, homogenized population and a cultural tradition of hard work and responsibility.

Canada is no longer any of those things.

You really think that?  C’mon. 

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14 minutes ago, Argus said:

What's the point of nationalizing them? You think these companies would operate more efficiently if run by government? Go look up Petro Canada for that little experiment.

I know.  It’s more about making sure there are decent royalties.  Though the NEP was disastrous, I was disappointed when the government sold off PETRO Canada.  I liked having that huge player in government hands.  It was mostly BP Canada.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You really think that?  C’mon. 

A third of our population is now foreign born, and that number will continue to rise. Plus we have deep divisions between urban/rural, and different values and priorities between English/French.

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7 minutes ago, Argus said:

A third of our population is now foreign born, and that number will continue to rise. Plus we have deep divisions between urban/rural, and different values and priorities between English/French.

Immigrants tend to be pretty industrious and do jobs that Canadians won’t do.  I’m speaking generally. I know you probably disagree.  The French are pretty business oriented, though it can be hard to coordinate with them, more because of certain policy ideas, such as pipelines.  The urban/rural divide is a concern I think mostly because immigrants are not moving to the country.  Home prices in cities are too high, infrastructure is straining to keep up, yet our northern areas that could really use human resources to develop natural resources and become more self-sufficient are seeing much less growth.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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42 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Canada has large refineries in Southern Ontario and Quebec as well as Edmonton and New Brunswick.  Ontario and Quebec are now getting most of the oil they refine from the prairies and the US, while New Brunswick is the only place where overseas oil is the major source.

 -k

Better American shale than Alberta tar, the oilsands are folly, it's only profitable above $100/barrel which is not a sustainable oil price.

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14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Better American shale than Alberta tar, the oilsands are folly, it's only profitable above $100/barrel which is not a sustainable oil price.

You’re way off.  It’s profitable at about $20-30 and the reserves are massive, at least third largest.  They will be producing oil long after the shale boom ends and California falls into the ocean because of an unintended fracking chain reaction.  

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6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re way off.  It’s profitable at about $20-30 and the reserves are massive, at least third largest. 

lol.  Saudi light sweet crude is not even profitable at $20/barrel, again, you live in Eskimo Communist Canadian la-la-land.

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1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

That's why Trump ran on a Make America Norway platform.
:rolleyes:

The parts of the Norway model worth emulating are the free market aspects of the model, not the socialism.

Norway is just a tiny country with a lot of oil, their free market aspects are nothing to emulate, moreover without American protection, Norway would not be rich, because they would need a military vastly more expensive than the one they have now, Norway is a product of the American Hegemony, but in order for that to work, America has to be the Hegemon, can't be Norway and the Hegemon at the same time.

To wit, if America is Norway,  then nobody is Norway, because if America tried to be Norway, all the little Norway's would be taken by the Russians the Chinese, or at least their offshore oil fields would be, and without their offshore oil, dingbat Norwegian socialism would go broke overnight.

Edited by Dougie93

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6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Immigrants tend to be pretty industrious and do jobs that Canadians won’t do.

I really dislike that expression. There are few jobs Canadians won't do. Aside from agricultural jobs far from most job-seekers, the primary reason Canadians don't do low-skilled jobs is because they have such low wages. Mass immigration holds down wages and allows employers to find people for these jobs without raising pay. Cut the number of immigrants and the wages will rise.

But that's not the point. The point is we do not have a homogeneous community. A variety of studies have shown that people's willingness to pay for social welfare programs, and even charity rests on a sense of shared identity. This engenders trust that their fellow citizens won't abuse their generosity. Likewise, their fellow citizens generally DON'T want to abuse that generosity, feeling an obligation to contribute. With this many foreign born neither of those holds true. Canadians don't trust their generosity not to be abused, and the value systems of most of the foreign born are a product of the corrupt, hardscrabble existence of the lands where they were raised.

 

Edited by Argus

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

I really dislike that expression. There are few jobs Canadians won't do. Aside from agricultural jobs far from most job-seekers, the primary reason Canadians don't do low-skilled jobs ib because they have such low wages. Mass immigration holds down wages and allows employers to find people for these jobs without raising pay. Cut the number of immigrants and the wages will rise.

But that's not the point. The point is we do not have a homogeneous community. A variety of studies have shown that people's willingness to pay for social welfare programs, and even charity rests on a sense of shared identity. This engenders trust that their fellow citizens won't abuse their generosity. Likewise, their fellow citizens generally DON'T want to abuse that generosity, feeling an obligation to contribute. With this many foreign born neither of those holds true. Canadians don't trust their generosity not to be abused, and the value systems of most of the foreign born are a product of the corrupt, hardscrabble existence of the lands where they were raised.

 

There’s truth in that second paragraph.  I’m meeting people with strange values.  Also seeing more women begging st intersections, which reminds me of Europe.  That’s recent. 

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8 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Norway is just a tiny country with a lot of oil, their free market aspects are nothing to emulate, moreover without American protection, Norway would not be rich, because they would need a military vastly more expensive than the one they have now, Norway is a product of the American Hegemony, but in order for that to work, America has to be the Hegemon, can't be Norway and the Hegemon at the same time.

To wit, if America is Norway,  then nobody is Norway, because if America tried to be Norway, all the little Norway's would be taken by the Russians the Chinese, or at least their offshore oil fields would be, and without their offshore oil, dingbat Norwegian socialism would go broke overnight.

If only Milton Friedman's Hong Kong sold better, that's the model. When it comes to energy though, America should be the model, not Norway. The parts of Norway that should be emulated are where they steal good ideas from the Americans, not Norway's Scandinavian Venezuela model.

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