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Carbon882

China or Trump? And weak Canadian identity.

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I'm not really sure on the details but it seems like Trump is gonna make Canada choose between China or the United States.

I often feel Anxiety when I think about how my country (Canada) is trapped in North America with the United States. It feels like the United States are bullying us with our trade relations and reliance. Call it the United States looking out for their own interest but it is what it is. Americans want to drain our blood for theirs weather if they are bully or just want to make themselves better, America will eat us if we let them.

I wanna say China right off the bat even thought it would be the less profitable option. Trump or who ever is working threw Trump has certainly trashed the United States diplomatic reputation. Our Relations with the United States have deteriorated to the lowest point since World war 2. China is far away and wont try to annex our land like how they are doing to Vietnam and other surrounding nations. In fact they may be more motivated to treat us well because we are next to their Rival. People in the American government are trying to use the Alberta separatist movement to Annex Canadian land. We need to rely less on the United States and if they are going to cut us off then we have to bite the bullet for our Future.

I think us Canadians have to really come together on a personal level and start discussing what to do because Trudeau and Doug Ford can't do this alone and divided. If we join the United States, they will annex us with Unfavorable Conditions using our desperation. Feeling the Existential Threat yet?

I think Canada has a weak cultural Identity. We're no more different than Vermont is from Texas. How can Canada beef up it's Culture?

I never felt so separate from the United States in my life. I never seen Tom Cruise(American Celeb) and thought "He's a American, he is a possible enemy" in my life until now. Canadians and Americans may say Canada feels like Extension of the USA but Trump us really slamming a wedge between our Identity's.

Edited by Carbon882

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1 hour ago, Carbon882 said:

never felt so separate from the United States in my life. I never seen Tom Cruise(American Celeb) and thought "He's a American, he is a possible enemy" in my life until now.

Lmao, you've no idea how much fear mongering is done by the liberal media. Trump is a reality TV star but even he was outdone by Kanye West. Kanye makes Trump look like jeb bush when trump stands next to jeb. This Trump deraingment syndrome is hilarious to watch. Though the same was true when obama was elected. Look I didn't vote for trump probably for the same reason you all seem to be afraid about. But after viewing his policy they are quite good. At least for america anyhow. I do plan to vote for him in 2020 just because I like result and the opposition party has no real agenda to push except anti-white identity politics that is itself inherently racist. Race is not a good metric of diversity Canada, knowledge and experience from different walks of life is. Look nafta 2.0 looks exactly the same as the original nafta. Nothing has change Canada. Your identity still belong to us. 

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14 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

1. Lmao, you've no idea how much fear mongering is done by the liberal media.

2. Trump is a reality TV star but even he was outdone by Kanye West. Kanye makes Trump look like jeb bush when trump stands next to jeb.

3. This Trump deraingment syndrome is hilarious to watch. Though the same was true when obama was elected.

4. I do plan to vote for him in 2020 just because I like result and the opposition party has no real agenda to push except anti-white identity politics that is itself inherently racist.

5. Look nafta 2.0 looks exactly the same as the original nafta. Nothing has change Canada. Your identity still belong to us. 

1. If you want to be taken seriously as someone with objective comments then you have to acknowledge the impact of the #1 cable news channel, also.  It is decidedly not 'liberal'.

2. That comparison is a pretty low bar, unless you're just intending to point out Kayne's ridiculousness.

3. I understand that, but there's a real cost to disunity and all of this will have to be put together at some time in the future.

4. Lots of reasons to not vote for him.  Bob Woodward's "Fear" paints the picture of a vain and obstinately ignorant person making bad decisions.  Your call, though.

5. Right, so why did Trump waste legislative bandwidth to rename agreements and policies for his own vanity ?  Ooh, wait I answered it...

 

 

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Canadian anxiety caused by Trump is just another chapter in a very long history.    Ditto the search for a Canadian identity that has always included a strong dose of not being American.   Canada was orphaned by Britain and France a long time ago, so the Canadians turned to the giant on its southern border for economic and military safety.

President Trump's China play is easy to understand...Canada is just a bit player with far fewer options...be inside or outside of America's tariff wall.

China is America's #1 trading partner...not Canada.

 

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canadian anxiety caused by Trump is just another chapter in a very long history.    Ditto the search for a Canadian identity that has always included a strong dose of not being American.   Canada was orphaned by Britain and France a long time ago, so the Canadians turned to the giant on its southern border for economic and military safety.

President Trump's China play is easy to understand...Canada is just a bit player with far fewer options...be inside or outside of America's tariff wall.

China is America's #1 trading partner...not Canada.

 

You export more to Canada than China and make more money from us than China, so stop playing the nobody cares game.  If Trump is worried about reducing imports from China, he should also be worrying about losing exports to Canada because Canadians are pissed off. 

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7 hours ago, Carbon882 said:

I'm not really sure on the details but it seems like Trump is gonna make Canada choose between China or the United States.

I often feel Anxiety when I think about how my country (Canada) is trapped in North America with the United States. It feels like the United States are bullying us with our trade relations and reliance. Call it the United States looking out for their own interest but it is what it is. Americans want to drain our blood for theirs weather if they are bully or just want to make themselves better, America will eat us if we let them.

I wanna say China right off the bat even thought it would be the less profitable option. Trump or who ever is working threw Trump has certainly trashed the United States diplomatic reputation. Our Relations with the United States have deteriorated to the lowest point since World war 2. China is far away and wont try to annex our land like how they are doing to Vietnam and other surrounding nations. In fact they may be more motivated to treat us well because we are next to their Rival. People in the American government are trying to use the Alberta separatist movement to Annex Canadian land. We need to rely less on the United States and if they are going to cut us off then we have to bite the bullet for our Future.

I think us Canadians have to really come together on a personal level and start discussing what to do because Trudeau and Doug Ford can't do this alone and divided. If we join the United States, they will annex us with Unfavorable Conditions using our desperation. Feeling the Existential Threat yet?

I think Canada has a weak cultural Identity. We're no more different than Vermont is from Texas. How can Canada beef up it's Culture?

I never felt so separate from the United States in my life. I never seen Tom Cruise(American Celeb) and thought "He's a American, he is a possible enemy" in my life until now. Canadians and Americans may say Canada feels like Extension of the USA but Trump us really slamming a wedge between our Identity's.

The solution would actually have been quite simple:

 

1. Canada adopts unilateral global free trade and shows the US the proverbial finger. The transition to a global economy would be painful but worthwhile in my opinion.

2. Canada needs to learn to accept that we've never in our history until today ever shared a common culture Canada-wide beyond a purely legal culture. Chinuk Wawa dominated as the lingua franca in most of BC until around 1900, Nunavut has four official languages,  the North-West Territories has twelve, and our MPs still communicate with one another through earphones like ambassadors at the UN General Assembly.  Many people ignore just how young Canada is as a country. In practical terms, Canada is a multinational state very much like Indonesia and needs to learn to embrace that. We need to recognize that the creation of a truly national identity would require state engineering of that identity similarly to how Indonesia developed Bahasa from a trade pidgin into a full national language even with the aid of a corpus-planning committee. I doubt Canada is ready to construct a national culture yet.

 

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Canada has a very strong national culture. Just visit the Vimy memorial and any doubts you might have will be quickly dashed.  You’re bringing a different lens to your interpretation of Canada’s national identity.  It’s interesting but not the image most Canadians have of Canada, loose as that identity might seem. 

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You export more to Canada than China and make more money from us than China, so stop playing the nobody cares game.  If Trump is worried about reducing imports from China, he should also be worrying about losing exports to Canada because Canadians are pissed off. 

 

He's not worried about losing exports to Canada...angry Canadians are so cute...boycotting Heinz ketchup whenever they are "pissed off" by those damn 'muricans !

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Look at the hallmark of a "Canadian" identity out on display. Hate on america some more. If canada wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, canada should just admit it's dependence on big brother usa. Look at how many productive canadians move to the states for job leading to an ever increasing brain drain that is only filled by endless wave of immigration who in turn also leave canada. The ones that do stay are just victim of this hate on america psychosis thus creating a diseased population of leftover haters. I say this without the slightest animus. 

Edited by paxamericana

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6 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Look at the hallmark of a "Canadian" identity out on display. Hate on america some more. If canada wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, canada should just admit it's dependence on big brother usa. Look at how many productive canadians move to the states for job leading to an ever increasing brain drain that is only filled by endless wave of immigration who in turn also leave canada. The ones that do stay are just victim of this hate on america psychosis thus creating a diseased population of leftover haters. I say this without the slightest animus. 

If you believe that the only thing keeping a Canadian in Canada is a hate for the US, then you've never been to Canada. Many stay because of family and friends , others for work opportunities, etc.

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Yeah Canada is a great place to live and work.  I'm happy up here, though it's a welcome change in the winter to get some sun and heat.  There are U.S. cities I wouldn't mind living in for a while, but the experience wouldn't be much different from up here, except perhaps for New York.  I've always thought that Canada is generally a cooler place to live socially and politically, though the cool factor in the U.S. varies city to city and state to state.  There are great places to live down there for sure.  The notion that somehow Canadians are flocking down there is fiction.  Certain jobs don't exist up here because we don't have the same scales of industry.  There's always some movement to centres of excellence.  We have them too and draw talent internationally.  It's just smaller scale up here.  There are advantages and disadvantages to living in small versus large countries, and not just economic ones.  

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On 10/14/2018 at 12:14 PM, paxamericana said:

1.) Look at how many productive canadians move to the states for job leading to an ever increasing brain drain...

2.)...only filled by endless wave of immigration who in turn also leave canada.

3.) The ones that do stay are just victim of this hate on america psychosis thus creating a diseased population of leftover haters. I say this without the slightest animus. 

1.) This seems to be a deliberate outcome of government policy which intends to provide Canadian corporations with the cheapest workers and discourage the employment of qualified and skilled Canadians. Canadian educational qualifications are accepted at face value in most other Western countries, and particularly in the U.S., which provides a safety valve of sorts.

2.) I think you've got the order (i.e. cause and effect) wrong here. Skilled and educated Canadians do leave, often aware that their government is running an competition scheme against them. And many of the best and most skilled immigrant workers leave as well, both after establishing a beachhead to bring relatives into the Canada and utilizing it as a stepping stone to get into the United States, which is often their preferred destination in the first place.

3.) I think this assessment is overly broad. Skilled Canadians do remain in the country but unfortunately too many are effectively forced to leave.

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2 hours ago, turningrite said:

1.) This seems to be a deliberate outcome of government policy which intends to provide Canadian corporations with the cheapest workers and discourage the employment of qualified and skilled Canadians. Canadian educational qualifications are accepted at face value in most other Western countries, and particularly in the U.S., which provides a safety valve of sorts.

2.) I think you've got the order (i.e. cause and effect) wrong here. Skilled and educated Canadians do leave, often aware that their government is running an competition scheme against them. And many of the best and most skilled immigrant workers leave as well, both after establishing a beachhead to bring relatives into the Canada and utilizing it as a stepping stone to get into the United States, which is often their preferred destination in the first place.

3.) I think this assessment is overly broad. Skilled Canadians do remain in the country but unfortunately too many are effectively forced to leave.

I don't know what social circles you move in within Canada.  I don't know any Canadians who've permanently moved to the U.S., highly skilled or otherwise.  Correction, I know one from university days.  I don't know anyone who said they have to leave Canada for lack of opportunity.  In many ways, Canada is where the growth is in the developed world today.  Europe is quite built-out and has an entrenched class system.  The U.S. is fragmenting under political polarization and an abandoned underclass.  Our challenge is trying to be all things to all people with a small population across a vast expanse, as always.

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On 10/13/2018 at 6:19 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Canada has a very strong national culture. Just visit the Vimy memorial and any doubts you might have will be quickly dashed.  You’re bringing a different lens to your interpretation of Canada’s national identity.  It’s interesting but not the image most Canadians have of Canada, loose as that identity might seem. 

I agree that we share a common legal and official culture. I'm just saying that we lack any common culture outside of official contexts.

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6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't know what social circles you move in within Canada.  I don't know any Canadians who've permanently moved to the U.S., highly skilled or otherwise.  Correction, I know one from university days.  I don't know anyone who said they have to leave Canada for lack of opportunity.  In many ways, Canada is where the growth is in the developed world today.  Europe is quite built-out and has an entrenched class system.  The U.S. is fragmenting under political polarization and an abandoned underclass.  Our challenge is trying to be all things to all people with a small population across a vast expanse, as always.

Huh? Hundreds of thousands of well-educated Canadians move to the U.S. to live and work. Several in my extended family have done so as have two siblings. According to American data, the number of Canadians living in the U.S. in 2016 was over 700 thousand. (See article in link below.) According to the article, Canadians residing in the U.S. as permanent residents are notable for higher levels of education and income in comparison to the broader immigrant population: "Compared to the overall foreign-born population, Canadians have a higher median income, are less likely to live in poverty, and are more likely to have health insurance and to be college educated." Further, as a group Canadians rank in third place in terms of the number entering the U.S. under H-1B (temporary employment) visas. 

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states

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18 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Huh? Hundreds of thousands of well-educated Canadians move to the U.S. to live and work. Several in my extended family have done so as have two siblings. According to American data, the number of Canadians living in the U.S. in 2016 was over 700 thousand. (See article in link below.) According to the article, Canadians residing in the U.S. as permanent residents are notable for higher levels of education and income in comparison to the broader immigrant population: "Compared to the overall foreign-born population, Canadians have a higher median income, are less likely to live in poverty, and are more likely to have health insurance and to be college educated." Further, as a group Canadians rank in third place in terms of the number entering the U.S. under H-1B (temporary employment) visas. 

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states

Well you've Googled some data about the education and income levels of Canadians living in the U.S.  Canadians are generally quite well educated and it makes sense that the Canadians down there are probably working in industries where they specialize and are doing well.  No one in my large extended family has moved to the U.S. permanently, and it includes many educated professionals.  One cousin went to university on scholarship.  Another is doing a professor stint down there.  In many circles you just go where the jobs are in your field, whether in Canada or the U.S..  I also have relatives working in places like Japan, China and South Korea.  I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of Canadians in the U.S..  Why wouldn't there be?  

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7 hours ago, Machjo said:

I agree that we share a common legal and official culture. I'm just saying that we lack any common culture outside of official contexts.

I totally disagree.  I just came back from a course full of franco-Ontarians from the north and a mix of Canadians who've worked in traditional industries and a few more recent immigrants.  It comes through both in the lifestyles of people who've lived here a long time and some of the recent arrivals.  Yes there's the love of hockey and skating/canoeing on glacier lakes, the sugar shack experience, wildlife, all those stereotypes, but it's more of a sensibility or outlook.  It became especially clear to me after traveling other countries.  We tend to listen and be sensitive to different approaches, but firm on standing up for people.  Anyway, I'm not saying we're better than anyone.  We aren't.  There is a distinctness though.  It's subtle not brash.

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10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of Canadians in the U.S..  Why wouldn't there be?  

You've changed your tune? My post responded to your earlier assertion: "I don't know what social circles you move in within Canada.  I don't know any Canadians who've permanently moved to the U.S., highly skilled or otherwise." But U.S. data, which reflects places of origin for those residing in that country, (and yes, I googled the issue in order to confirm my position), suggest that your understanding, while perhaps indicative of your own personal belief, doesn't reflect reality. My point about education is raised to indicate that those Canadians who do migrate to the U.S. are among our best and brightest, which surely must be seen as a loss where Canada's own economic needs and potential are concerned.

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36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

My point is that we have lots of talent inside our borders and we export a lot of talent.

 

Actually, the Canadian talent exports itself.  Lots more opportunity, better compensation, and lower cost of living "south of the border".

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5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Actually, the Canadian talent exports itself.  Lots more opportunity, better compensation, and lower cost of living "south of the border".

More socio-economic problems, more political polarization, more violence, weaker public education, lower minimum wage in the U.S.... Okay, you say goodbye I say hello.  We've had this conversation.  Just repeating the same things to counter the same pro-American propaganda.  

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

More socio-economic problems, more political polarization, more violence, weaker public education, lower minimum wage in the U.S.... Okay, you say goodbye I say hello.  We've had this conversation.  Just repeating the same things to counter the same pro-American propaganda.  

Look, look, look, canada has a brain drain and that issue is real be it for economic or cultural reasons. Canadians who typically stay are more risk averse, placing a higher value in the familiar like family, friends, community. Not saying they are lesser for it, but it is definitely a choice and one that leads a decreased in available opportunities for other talented and more ambitious canadians who in turn migrate to the US. 

Edited by paxamericana

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

More socio-economic problems, more political polarization, more violence, weaker public education, lower minimum wage in the U.S.... Okay, you say goodbye I say hello.  We've had this conversation.  Just repeating the same things to counter the same pro-American propaganda.  

 

Canadians voting with their feet means a lot more than any conversation.  Canada also has a net migration problem because it is a stepping stone to the United States.

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