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WestCanMan

2nd Terrorist attack on a Country Music Venue this year.

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On 11/17/2018 at 1:46 PM, TTM said:

So you were agreeing that Trumps comments were pathetic and pandering to White supremisists, my mistake.  Your initial post said it was pathetic for the reporter to ask the question, so you can see my confusion

It was pathetic for the reporter to ask the question. They could just as easily ask those types of questions to Democrats, with whom they speak more frequently, but they never do.

And you need to look up the definition of pandering. Trump wasn’t complimenting them or offering them anything. He just didn’t turn his nose up at their votes. 

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You would have to provide a specific example

The whole next paragraph you quoted is the specific example.

It was extremely pathetic that Obama wouldn’t speak out against rioting, looting, public rallies expilicity calling for the murders of police officers and then the actual murders themselves. Obama didn’t speak out against any of that. He didn’t want to distance the Democrats party from all of that violence.

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You make the partisan mistake of thinking because I dislike Trump and Republicans I care particularly about Obama and Democrats ... I don't

Good call. They’re actually worse. If Obama could have gotten elected again the rioting and looting would still be going on.

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Hyperventilating about BLM indicates you should get your news from more varied sources and perspectives.  At its heart it is drawing attention to the factually correct (if not politically correct, amongst some) statement that blacks in general, and unarmed blacks especially, are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites.  It is not about hating cops, although I'm sure some members do, just like I'm sure there is the odd cop that actually hates blacks

The BLM, at it’s heart, is a group of fear mongers stirring up hatred and division. They weren’t talking about problems or solutions, they were rushing to judgement and advancing a false narrative on every police shooting that occurred in 2015. They ignored bad shootings of white people. They’re just a bunch of shitty racists in general.

And the number of police murdered every year is far higher than the number of questionable killings by police every year. 

 

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Regarding Obama's speach, the full transcript is here.  Respectful of those killed, condemning the killer, acknowledging the racial tensions that led to the killings, and attempting to bring everyone together ... disgraceful!

assume your claim of Obama admitting he is a racist is from these debunked misrepresentations and lies, if not, please enlighten:

https://www.factcheck.org/2008/06/obamas-dreams-of-my-father/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/coil-of-rage/

Watch the speech. Watch him say “we’re all a bit racist”. Watch him stand in front of 5 dead cops and link their deaths to “centuries of racism, slavery, and Jim Crowe laws”. The only appropriate comments at that funeral were regarding the repugnance of the crime, and the need to decrease the anti-police rhetoric that was so explicit and so common. 

If Trump stood at the Pittsburgh funeral a couple of weeks back and referenced Zionism, Israeli occupation, and George Soros everyone at CNN would have literally have died of aneurisms. 

If you think Obama’s speech merely “acknowledged racial tensions”, and you can’t see how he made a martyr of the killer, you’re an idiot.

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On 11/18/2018 at 10:10 PM, WestCanMan said:

1. It was pathetic for the reporter to ask the question. 

2. And you need to look up the definition of pandering. 

3. It was extremely pathetic that Obama wouldn’t speak out against rioting, looting, public rallies expilicity calling for the murders of police officers and then the actual murders themselves. 

4. The BLM, at it’s heart, is a group of fear mongers stirring up hatred and division. 

5. And the number of police murdered every year is far higher than the number of questionable killings by police every year. 

6. Watch him say “we’re all a bit racist”.

7. The only appropriate comments at that funeral were regarding the repugnance of the crime, and the need to decrease the anti-police rhetoric 

8. If Trump stood at the Pittsburgh funeral a couple of weeks back and referenced Zionism, Israeli occupation, and George Soros everyone at CNN would have literally have died of aneurisms. 

1.  I love that you think the ultimate softball question is a "gotcha" and "pathetic".  I love that you can claim Republicans and Trump don't pander to racists, but also think it's unfair to ask him to repudiate an endorsement by a famous white supremacist (of whom he is quite familiar with)

2. pander (verb): to act as a pander (noun)

pander (noun): someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others

He is offering a president who does not dismiss their racist views.  He just (wink wink) doesn't know what you're talking about.  Pandering.

3. A simple google search returns multiple direct quotes, as does the speech previously posted

4. Because you find their factually correct position politically incorrect does not make them fear mongers.  Getting folks worked up about imaginary "race wars" is fear mongering

5. Police killed by citizens:

In 2017, 44 cops shot, 1 stabbed, possibly a handful of "other". This was an abnormally low year, 2016 saw 66 cops shot

Citizens killed by police:

1129 shoting deaths in 2017 (27%black)
170 armed with knife (??% black)
147 unarmed (37% black)
~4000 deaths per year on average in police custody for all causes (but does not include some deaths during attempted arrests due to differing state reporting methods)

The majority of the unarmed shootings would be "suspicious", a number of the "armed with knives", a small fraction of the "armed with guns", and a small fraction of the remaining deaths in custody.  Best case there is 3-4x more "suspicious" deaths in custody/during arrests than police killed. Worst case is an order of magnitude more.

Note also that there were about the same number unarmed black people shot by police compared to police shot by anyone in 2017

6.  So we are

7. Obama said those things.  He was also addressing the country regarding all of the events surrounding. As he should.

8. If Trump was the president of Isreal (or Palestine), at a funeral where if was relevant, then no problem. However, while they indirectly support it, the US government or parts of are not involved directly in Zionism or the occupation. In the US, there were no mass protests and riots about Zionism or the Palestinian occupation, and the vast majority of those who get worked up about it are not actually directly affected by it.  The Soros conspiracies are made up.  There is no reason to bring it up (other than to pander)

Edited by TTM

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17 hours ago, TTM said:

1.  I love that you think the ultimate softball question is a "gotcha" and "pathetic".  I love that you can claim Republicans and Trump don't pander to racists, but also think it's unfair to ask him to repudiate an endorsement by a famous white supremacist (of whom he is quite familiar with)

2. pander (verb): to act as a pander (noun)

pander (noun): someone who caters to or exploits the weaknesses of others

He is offering a president who does not dismiss their racist views.  He just (wink wink) doesn't know what you're talking about.  Pandering.

3. A simple google search returns multiple direct quotes, as does the speech previously posted

4. Because you find their factually correct position politically incorrect does not make them fear mongers.  Getting folks worked up about imaginary "race wars" is fear mongering

5. Police killed by citizens:

In 2017, 44 cops shot, 1 stabbed, possibly a handful of "other". This was an abnormally low year, 2016 saw 66 cops shot

Citizens killed by police:

1129 shoting deaths in 2017 (27%black)
170 armed with knife (??% black)
147 unarmed (37% black)
~4000 deaths per year on average in police custody for all causes (but does not include some deaths during attempted arrests due to differing state reporting methods)

The majority of the unarmed shootings would be "suspicious", a number of the "armed with knives", a small fraction of the "armed with guns", and a small fraction of the remaining deaths in custody.  Best case there is 3-4x more "suspicious" deaths in custody/during arrests than police killed. Worst case is an order of magnitude more.

Note also that there were about the same number unarmed black people shot by police compared to police shot by anyone in 2017

6.  So we are

7. Obama said those things.  He was also addressing the country regarding all of the events surrounding. As he should.

8. If Trump was the president of Isreal (or Palestine), at a funeral where if was relevant, then no problem. However, while they indirectly support it, the US government or parts of are not involved directly in Zionism or the occupation. In the US, there were no mass protests and riots about Zionism or the Palestinian occupation, and the vast majority of those who get worked up about it are not actually directly affected by it.  The Soros conspiracies are made up.  There is no reason to bring it up (other than to pander)

1 It's a pathetic question for the reasons I stated. They never ask the Dems to do disavow votes from Antifa, BLM, New Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, etc. Same crap, different pile.

/ˈpandər/

verb
- gratify or indulge 
He's not pandering to a group by the act not telling them to f off. If I was running for election and returning Isis terrorists wanted to vote for me why should I tell them not to do what would end up being the smartest & most meaningful thing that they had ever done to that point in their life?
Pandering would be if he spoke highly of them, or put things in his platform that advanced their cause in a way that was less advantageous to everyone else.
Duke is a former Grand Wizard, just like Hillary's mentor and Democrat US Senator Robert Byrd. Did Byrd ever become part of a group that's not racist? Nope. He died a Demorat. So Duke probably still is a racist too. 
3. Obama's speech in front of those dead cops was disgusting. Every other speech Obama made about rioting was just a bit of lip service with a heaping side of "exactly why the riots are happening in the first place". He never put anything into proper perspective, ever. Instead of  "Only Zimmerman truly knows why Martin got shot" he says things like "That could have happened to my son" or whatever. Obama's comment only makes sense if GZ just walked up and shot him for no reason whatsoever. If a confrontation got out of hand, that's something that was within Martin's control.
4. Getting folks worked up about imaginary "race wars" is fear mongering. IE, BLM are fear mongers. Thanks for the clarification. Here's a public tweet from one of the Canadian BLM leaders: ""Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today. Plz Plz Plz." 'Splain that bit of racism and division away if you could plz TTM. ....***cue cricket sounds****
5. That's not cops "shot", it's cops "killed". Every single one of those is "beyond suspicious".
Of course 2016 was an abnormally high year. Thanks to Obama making martyrs of cop killers.
Zero percent of armed shootings are suspicious, very few with knives are suspicious, and truthfully, incidents which are initially considered suspicious but are found to not be suspicious fall into the "not suspicious" category.  
6. Obama can only speak for himself in that regard. He's a bit racist. All his friends and family are a bit racist. You're a bit racist. No surprises there.
7. Obama's speech should have been about those things, and those things alone. If your dad was a dead cop laying in a coffin behind Obama would you like Obama to say that your dad and other officers were partly to blame for his murder? Or would you find that disrespectful? What if it was your son laying dead there? "Well, it's kid of his fault for wearing the uniform. They all share a bit of that blame". 
8. That's neither here nor there. Trump could have referenced actual things that people don't like about Israel. They've had actual terrorists take on leading government roles. And Israel gets billions from America every year. He could have said that "sometimes, some Jews complain about Christmas decorations". That's actually bigotry against Christians by Jews!!!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! The point is there was nothing you could say that has anything to do with the actual killing of a group of random Jews at a baby naming ceremony than blind, stupid, bigotry. That kind of talk would have been intolerable, hateful and unforgivable. There was no good reason to shoot those cops either. There's no reason to reference anything that ever happened in the US, killing those cops was a plain evil act with no mitigating factors. Period. 
 

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7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1 It's a pathetic question for the reasons I stated. 

/ˈpandər/

2a. If I was running for election and returning Isis terrorists wanted to vote for me why should I tell them not to 
 
3. Obama's speech in front of those dead cops was disgusting. 
 
3a. Every other speech Obama made about rioting was just a bit of lip service with a heaping side of "exactly why the riots are happening in the first place". He never put anything into proper perspective, ever. 
 
3b. "Only Zimmerman truly knows why Martin got shot"
 
3c. Obama's comment only makes sense if GZ just walked up and shot him for no reason whatsoever. 
 
4. Getting folks worked up about imaginary "race wars" is fear mongering. IE, BLM are fear mongers. 
 
4a. 'Splain that bit of racism and division away if you could plz TTM. 
 
5. That's not cops "shot", it's cops "killed".
 
5a. Of course 2016 was an abnormally high year. 
 
5b. Zero percent of armed shootings are suspicious,
 
5c. very few with knives are suspicious,
 
6. Obama can only speak for himself in that regard. 
 
7. Obama's speech should have been about those things, and those things alone. 
 
7a. Would you like Obama to say that your dad and other officers were partly to blame for his murder? Or would you find that disrespectful?
 
8. That's neither here nor there. 

1. Your entire argument hinges on Trump and Republicans should be allowed go after the racist vote unchecked by the media. Whether you can concoct some sort of equivalent Democrat what-if is irrelevant to the ethics of Trump's actions.

2. lol. You can't tell me which definition of pander I was using.  I gave you the dictionary definition I was using

2a. Normally because it would turn off the vast majority of your base opposed to ISIS, as well as independents.  Trumps base however seems OK with courting racist voters 

3. Agree to disagree

3a. Moving the goalposts. The constitution allows them to protest. Where it went beyond protest he condemned it

3b. lol. Only O.J. knows why Jessica Simpson was stabbed

3c.  He stalked Martin.  He was told by police dispatch not to follow him shortly before the incident.

4. The race war comments come from the BLM opponents on the right

4a. Analogy: "Fetus Lives Matter" supporters and their leaders sometimes protest, vandalize, issue death threats, and occasionally murder.  But both these groups are at their heart about moral/political disputes.  They are not hate groups. 

5. Yes. Killed with bullets, specifically.

5a. No, 2017 was abnormally low, and I didn't want to appear to be cherry picking, so I gave 2016 as a more typical year

5b. Not always.  For example:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4659397/chicago-security-guard-police-shooting-jemel-roberson/

"happens to have a gun on person, but not wielding"?; "registered gun in glovebox"? (to reference an infamous incident); child with beebee gun (to reference another); opened fire before giving the suspect a chance to put the gun down; etc.

5c. opened fire before when wielder is not actively threatening anyone; opened fire before giving the suspect a chance to put the knife down; suspect happened to have a pocket knife but wasnt actually wielding it; etc.

6. Please attempt to recognize subtlety and figure of speech when you see it.  Tribalism is hardwired into our genes.  Thus colloquially,  "we are all a bit racist". Recognizing this and correcting for it when necessary is the direct opposite of wallowing in these thoughts and acting on them

7. Agree to disagree. 

7a. Had my father been one of the murdered police officers, I would not have been offended by that speech.  I can understand how some could though.

8. You missed my point completely.  

Edited by TTM

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2 hours ago, TTM said:

1. Your entire argument hinges on Trump and Republicans should be allowed go after the racist vote unchecked by the media. Whether you can concoct some sort of equivalent Democrat what-if is irrelevant to the ethics of Trump's actions.

2. lol. You can't tell me which definition of pander I was using.  I gave you the dictionary definition I was using

2a. Normally because it would turn off the vast majority of your base opposed to ISIS, as well as independents.  Trumps base however seems OK with courting racist voters 

3. Agree to disagree

3a. Moving the goalposts. The constitution allows them to protest. Where it went beyond protest he condemned it

3b. lol. Only O.J. knows why Jessica Simpson was stabbed

3c.  He stalked Martin.  He was told by police dispatch not to follow him shortly before the incident.

4. The race war comments come from the BLM opponents on the right

4a. Analogy: "Fetus Lives Matter" supporters and their leaders sometimes protest, vandalize, issue death threats, and occasionally murder.  But both these groups are at their heart about moral/political disputes.  They are not hate groups. 

5. Yes. Killed with bullets, specifically.

5a. No, 2017 was abnormally low, and I didn't want to appear to be cherry picking, so I gave 2016 as a more typical year

5b. Not always.  For example:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4659397/chicago-security-guard-police-shooting-jemel-roberson/

"happens to have a gun on person, but not wielding"?; "registered gun in glovebox"? (to reference an infamous incident); child with beebee gun (to reference another); opened fire before giving the suspect a chance to put the gun down; etc.

5c. opened fire before when wielder is not actively threatening anyone; opened fire before giving the suspect a chance to put the knife down; suspect happened to have a pocket knife but wasnt actually wielding it; etc.

6. Please attempt to recognize subtlety and figure of speech when you see it.  Tribalism is hardwired into our genes.  Thus colloquially,  "we are all a bit racist". Recognizing this and correcting for it when necessary is the direct opposite of wallowing in these thoughts and acting on them

7. Agree to disagree. 

7a. Had my father been one of the murdered police officers, I would not have been offended by that speech.  I can understand how some could though.

8. You missed my point completely.  

1 They didn’t go after the racist vote. 

2 I gave you the definition of pander that fit your comment in the context which it was written. Trump didn’t court the racist vote. Stop quoting CNN stooges.

3 a)thoroughly disgusting. 

BjThe goalposts aren’t moving. If he makes that speech that ends in “there are a whole lot of great reasons to be out there protesting” it’s not a speech against the riots.

C1)Whatever reason OJ had for stabbing NBS it was illegal. That was a stupid analogy. C2) If Martin was being perfectly compliant, and not belligerent, then Obama made a salient point. There’s zero evidence on the face of the earth that supports his position, and one witness to the contrary. If Obama was wrong then he caused extensive rioting, looting, arson and cop killing for no reason.

4 BLM is all about division and fear mongering, which is actually worse than hate mongering. Humans kill things they fear. Pro life people aren’t racist, BLM is.

5 cop killI got bad. Non-compliant criminals posing a threat to police and getting killed, Darwinism. 

6 if Trump said he was a bit racist you wouldn’t be 1% forgiving, and tribalism isn’t racism. Cultural differences are real. Racism is just racism.

8 My point can’t be missed TTM. Giving reasons why random Jews or cops were murdered, at their funeral, is thoroughly disgusting no matter who does it. There’s no reason for Obama to bring up things from 150 years ago when a BLMer or new black panther kills some random cops today.

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On 11/22/2018 at 12:36 AM, WestCanMan said:

1 They didn’t go after the racist vote. 

2 I gave you the definition of pander that fit your comment in the context which it was written. Trump didn’t court the racist vote. Stop quoting CNN stooges.

3 thoroughly disgusting. 

a) The goalposts aren’t moving. If he makes that speech that ends in “there are a whole lot of great reasons to be out there protesting” it’s not a speech against the riots.

b) Whatever reason OJ had for stabbing NBS it was illegal. That was a stupid analogy.

c) If Martin was being perfectly compliant, and not belligerent, then Obama made a salient point. There’s zero evidence on the face of the earth that supports his position, and one witness to the contrary. If Obama was wrong then he caused extensive rioting, looting, arson and cop killing for no reason.

4 BLM is all about division and fear mongering, which is actually worse than hate mongering. Humans kill things they fear. Pro life people aren’t racist, BLM is.

5 cop killI got bad. Non-compliant criminals posing a threat to police and getting killed, Darwinism. 

6 if Trump said he was a bit racist you wouldn’t be 1% forgiving, and tribalism isn’t racism. Cultural differences are real. Racism is just racism.

8 My point can’t be missed TTM. Giving reasons why random Jews or cops were murdered, at their funeral, is thoroughly disgusting no matter who does it. There’s no reason for Obama to bring up things from 150 years ago when a BLMer or new black panther kills some random cops today.

1. assertion, not argument

2. Changing the meaning of my words to fit your narrative. Unsupported assertion. Incorrect accusation.

3. Opinion

3a. That was the definition of moving the goalposts: "Obama wouldn’t speak out against rioting, looting, public rallies expilicity calling for the murders of police officers and then the actual murders themselves" (which he did) becomes "Obama wouldn't speak out against legal protests" 

3b. Not an analogy, I was showing how obnoxious and dismissive that comment was

3c. The evidence of what happened was conflicting, and I certainly would not have convicted him based on what is public. But if you can't see why people who as a fairly common experience are followed, pulled over, and generally harrassed for no reason than their race would find the facts of this incident particularly galling, then there is no point discussing this further.

4  Unsupported assertion. People also kill things they hate, so I'm not sure of your point. Sexism is not particularly better than racism, and you still have not refuted the basic facts about blacks and especially unarmed blacks being shot at much higher rates than whites.

5. Juvenile sloganeering 

6. Possibly ... It does not appear Trump is capable of metaphor, figure of speech or subtlety in general, so unless he was reading prepared remarks I'd have to assume he meant it literally. Racism is just a nasty offshoot of tribalism

8. The point is that where there are current tensions actually exist, failing to comment is tantamount to taking sides. You cannot ask two sides to come together by denying the truth of one of the sides.

Edited by TTM

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