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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

What do people think of this thing? I know that I am a man and when I go to get my haircut its at a barber and its done within 10 minutes....buzzzzzzzz

I don't get it styled etc. I guess I am just lost with what this bill really looks to accomplish...anyone care about this one? I think that it is just a bill though...

It probably should be posted in the provincial section seeing as it relates to Ontario but I think that it would set a federal precedent. Do the courts really need to be backlogged with haircut lawsuits?

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Ladies night wouldn't be the same thing. It's specifically advertised as such.

There can be a law and it can be effective, IF (big IF) people, consumers and law enforcement alike, can not go off half crazed and bring frivolous charges for whatever personal reasons they might have.

A woman's shirt should not cost more to dry clean than a comparable man's shirt. A woman's haircut should not cost $35 at the same establishment that charges men $10 and yet takes the same amount of time and skill. Good old common sense could prevail, but given this countries experience in going from one extreme to another, this may just be too much to ask.

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Guest eureka

Doesn.t California have such a law already?

I think, though, that it is more of an opportunistic gambit. A woman's blouse certainly does take far longer, for one example, than a man's shirt. And, if a woman would be satisfied with a short back and sides she could probably get a cheap price, too.

There are many products that sell to women that are more expensive than the same for men. Unless it can be shown that the products are identical, why should there not be a price differential

The, women could buy the "strong enough for a man" product if they wanted. The 'made for a woman" part is baloney.

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A woman's shirt should not cost more to dry clean than a comparable man's shirt. A woman's haircut should not cost $35 at the same establishment that charges men $10 and yet takes the same amount of time and skill. Good old common sense could prevail, but given this countries experience in going from one extreme to another, this may just be too much to ask.

I have a problem with trying to constrict the function of the market in this way.

Pricing is a very nebulous thing. Who is to say that prices are gender-based, race-based, age-based and what's fair ? The fairness of the price is judged by the consumer that buys these goods.

And managing a law like this would be a nightmare. Would there be some kind of judicial body or enforcement group assigned to this area ?

Men and women are different, and they happen to value different things so it makes sense that there would be a price difference for different genders based on how that good is valued.

If there are situations that are blatantly unfair, it would be better for people to raise the consciousness of consumers to highlight the problem, in my opinion.

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Pricing is a very nebulous thing. Who is to say that prices are gender-based, race-based, age-based and what's fair ? The fairness of the price is judged by the consumer that buys these goods.

I totally agree. What's next unfair pricing of egg noodles discriminate against Asians? I think the whole thing is a waste of time and money. Let the market decide the price. If women weren't willing to pay so much for their hair, nails, waxing etc. the prices would drop.

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IMR,

If women weren't willing to pay so much for their hair, nails, waxing etc. the prices would drop.
You and Mr. Hardner are entirely correct, the market decides prices for these things, and so should it.

Now, if a woman walked into a barber shop and said "Give me a US Marine 'Jarhead Special", and the barber charged an extra $10 because the client was a woman, that would be discrimination.

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IMR,
If women weren't willing to pay so much for their hair, nails, waxing etc. the prices would drop.
You and Mr. Hardner are entirely correct, the market decides prices for these things, and so should it.

Now, if a woman walked into a barber shop and said "Give me a US Marine 'Jarhead Special", and the barber charged an extra $10 because the client was a woman, that would be discrimination.

You might be right. But what if the woman had longer hair than a man? It might mean more work. Women's clothing and personal hygene needs differ greatly. I think Michael is right in that it would be impossible to discern what is discriminatory and what is not. I think if there really was a way to provide for women's needs at a better price, people would be doing it. That's the purpose of the free market. I hardly think one could argue that drycleaners and beauticians across the country are collaborating to jack women. The truth is it the underlying costs are higher for women.

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I think this type of bill goes too far. There is usually a legitimate reason for the pricing difference. I worked in drycleaning and can tell you that there is a big difference in pressing women"s shirts and men's shirts.

Men have traditionally for years worn the same basic style of shirt; most wear a shirt one day. Men's shirts can be processed in an assembly line style with a expensive shirt press that will adjust for most mens regular cotton shirts. Ladies and boys will not fit on the press. They must be pressed by hand which takes much more time. They often have more fragile buttons such as thin shell buttons which break easily. There are not enough ladies wearing straight fit shirts to make a ladies shirt press viable. Ladies shirts tend to have darts and more shape that do not press flat.

The prices will not really change; they will need to justify them by sizes, buttons. straight bottom, too short for press. Hand finish or whatever; women generally would not accept the finish on most men's shirts.

I am sure the hair dresser / barber industry has similar justifications.

Why would we prevent free enterprise. If there is a company that can provide services for ladies garments at the same price as men's ; those who did not follow suit would lose business.

Nobody is forced to use any particular drycleaner or hair dressing salon.

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This gender pricing is very suspicious of course it is always in the favor of men.

I mean men literally save 50% more than women. That is one reason why women are not getting rich.

I mean I don't have to repeat for the hair cut, dry cleaning, these men even score with the ladies night at the bar.

Women’s clothing are far more expensive than men plus they have to buy more variety. I was in a meeting recently that lasted for several days, and I observed the men as usual showed up with their black suits and white shirts and tie - no surprise. If one of them had whispered secretly that he was wearing the same suit for the three day - I am more inclined to believe this. The women of course must change, different hairdo, different suits, different shoes, oh, the variety.

Some retailers noted that the women usually put 1/2 of the bills on a credit card, and pay by cash the other half - this is to explain to their spouses they didn't pay too much. But the 1/2 price example is more like a comparable price to a man's clothing.

Long ago I learnt that being a female has its many disadvantages, but we also learn about the evils around us and make sure to send men to the cleaners instead of trying to be too brave

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I mean men literally save 50% more than women. That is one reason why women are not getting rich.

Are these married men ? Men with families ? In this case, don't these assets qualify as belonging to both ?

I mean I don't have to repeat for the hair cut, dry cleaning, these men even score with the ladies night at the bar.

Women’s clothing are far more expensive than men plus they have to buy more variety. I was in a meeting recently that lasted for several days, and I observed the men as usual showed up with their black suits and white shirts and tie - no surprise. If one of them had whispered secretly that he was wearing the same suit for the three day - I am more inclined to believe this. The women of course must change, different hairdo, different suits, different shoes, oh, the variety.

Well, they can CHOOSE to dress the same way. Just as men can CHOOSE to not pay for dinner, drinks, dates and so forth...

If cultural customs are flawed, then talking about them - raising consciousness - is the best way to deflate them. It has worked in the past.

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Are these married men ? Men with families ? In this case, don't these assets qualify as belonging to both ?

Men nowadays are waiting to secure weath and decidingly are marrying or doing some common law in their thirties. They then acquire some children and gets a divorce when the women are in their forties. Since the emphasis is placed on reproducing wealth among men, women are burden with the helplessness of trying to get rich in a man's world and later handed the children. Remind me how a woman can get rich.

ok so I can disclose that I do have a couple of men's shirt that I bought at the men's store - I specifically went looking for these shirts, firstly because it is cheaper, and secondly the collars are different. Did you know the average man's shirt collar is larger than the regular ladies collar, and the collar is tailored with bindings plus it fits nicely with some of my outfits. I always pay a ladies price to dry-clean my men's shirt even when I point out it is a man's shirt - my guess is they usually go by the smell when the female takes in the shirts.

Sometimes I ask the male runner to take to the dry cleaning, I am always shock at the savings.

Well I naturally draw the conclusion that women are really not plugged into how the system operate with men.

This familiar system is perpetuated to a male advantage and is a problem, for example with the buying of insurance, the buying of auto parts, or a new car. I mean I don't think all men are mechanics and know the ins and outs of car. But in order for women not to be ripped off - they have to take painful efforts to learn the mechanics of the car.

In fact, women have to spend their valuable to shop around for a better price for hair cuts, clothes, cars, insurance because they know they won't be any equal services close to their homes.

Here is what I am thinking that women have to in essence work harder, be paid less, and waste their time on nothingness to receive the same service as men.

Well, they can CHOOSE to dress the same way. Just as men can CHOOSE to not pay for dinner, drinks, dates and so forth...

If cultural customs are flawed, then talking about them - raising consciousness - is the best way to deflate them. It has worked in the past.

You are right women can choose to do much, but also the means of their success is dependant on how seductive they are. It is the way they look for growth, for a partner. It is the game they play. Some women have to promote how exotic they are. But, women are not the ones with the aces, sorry to say. I mean women will only defeat themselves in rebelling amongst themselves.

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Did you know the average man's shirt collar is larger than the regular ladies collar, and the collar is tailored with bindings plus it fits nicely with some of my outfits. I always pay a ladies price to dry-clean my men's shirt even when I point out it is a man's shirt - my guess is they usually go by the smell when the female takes in the shirts.

If you are talking about a regular men's shirt; you should change drycleaners. What size? many shirts under a size 15 collar would not fit on the press same as boys shirts; and need to be hand finished. Perhaps your shirt has a fair amount of makeup on that requires special pretreatment. To suggest that a drycleaning establishment would go by smell is ridiculous.

Plus, mens shirts are laundered not drycleaned. If you ask for it to be drycleaned you make well pay extra. It is a completely different process cleaning and finishing. Mens laundered shirts are pressed while they are wet.

Men really get a shock when they purchase rayon or silk shirts that require drycleaning and costs the same as ladies. They usually opt to only wear these shirts for special occasions after paying the higher prices..

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many shirts under a size 15 collar would not fit on the press same as boys shirts

Then I also suggest it is discriminating to make a press board based on men's shirt sizes, when in fact the majority of the customer base is female, and we know that females are smaller - the females never gets accommodated and they have to pay dearly

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Then I also suggest it is discriminating to make a press board based on men's shirt sizes, when in fact the majority of the customer base is female, and we know that females are smaller - the females never gets accommodated and they have to pay dearly

Wrong; most women wash and iron their own "shirts" Women's shirts do not press flat; we generally have darts. Females do not wear the same style year after year to make such a press viable. For every thousand men shirts; we may take in 5 ladies. Many these days contain lycra that requires a cold wash or drycleaning.

The majority of drycleaning is still predominantly males. Most ladies tend to wear the same blouse for many wearings; while most men wear the shirts only one time. I suppose it is partly due to them more willing to touch up the press and because of the cost.

Oh, and it is not a "press board" it is generally a 3 piece shirt press. Collars and cuffs / body press/ and sleeves.

ladies cuffs often do not open up and lay flat. Fragile buttons such as expensive shell buttons break easily even when individually wrapped and must be replaced.

As far as suits go; where I have worked; we charge the same price for ladies or men's suits of the same material and style. This of course means pant suits with a regular crease in the slacks. Skirt suits or slacks with no center crease are too varied to have a suitable press that would allow quicker processing.

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Men nowadays are waiting to secure weath and decidingly are marrying or doing some common law in their thirties. They then acquire some children and gets a divorce when the women are in their forties. Since the emphasis is placed on reproducing wealth among men, women are burden with the helplessness of trying to get rich in a man's world and later handed the children. Remind me how a woman can get rich.

How often does this scenario happen, though ? Is this typical ? And even if it does happen, a divorce usually involves a splitting of the assets.

You are right women can choose to do much, but also the means of their success is dependant on how seductive they are. It is the way they look for growth, for a partner. It is the game they play. Some women have to promote how exotic they are. But, women are not the ones with the aces, sorry to say. I mean women will only defeat themselves in rebelling amongst themselves.

You are correctly lamenting the shallower aspects of our society, but again the best remedy is consciousness raising. The counter-example is that of men who once they reveal that they are in low-income professions, find that women aren't interested in them.

Unfortunately, you can't legislate spiritual living...

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Caesar

I ask, which gender designs the machines to process men clothing?. Isn’t it the men who are serving their own interest? Men have no desire to figure a machine to process women’s clothes in masses for efficiency and for cheap.

This not any rocket science, these men want to keep women into the hand washing era perpetuating women in a domestic role, first at the cleaners and then keep them washing at their homes.

This laundry concept of hand washing women’s clothing is not about delicate fabrics and buttons but more about a controlled agenda.

But I wanted to talk about price discrimination with regards to laundry. Your argument is hinge on the size and fabric. So why don’t they have a price list based on fabric, why is it gender related? I mean why can’t we displaced a difference in gender and scrutinize items as clothes. Let’s say we create some fair structure of charging the same price for materials. How about 5$ will drive all males away, and encourage more women to bring their clothing to the cleaners.

But I will tell you why the women’s clothing is costlier at the laundry. Women goes out to buy quality items that is more expensive and it co-relates with a predetermined damage that might be had, hence the higher price - similar to insurance, or benefit costs.

In support of your argument that men are the major users of laundry, the price setting is favorable to men.

The idea is a matter of demand and supply for price discrimination.

Look assuming the men are really hygienic and clean folks they show up at the laundry store 90% of the time with low affordable prices.

The genders are price sensitive, put a comparable price to that of a women’s blouse would drive men to wear unlaundered clothes. Which returns us to a stereotype of men – they don’t usually care about their appearance. Women don’t show at the laundry because you set the price higher than they can bargain – but also here is the catch the laundry folks say their profits are increased based of the women showing up.

Your 1000:5 ratio is a bit exaggerated I believe. If you work the math I would say that the profits would significantly rely on servicing women customers.

In my opinion I think there is much monopolizing power to sustain discrimination of prices between the genders or some other reason besides men’s agenda why women’s clothing is so expensive to clean. Maybe the laundry folks are just indeed rather strange.

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  This gender pricing is very suspicious of course it is always in the favor of men. 

You mean like car insurance??? Why is it that a single (unmarried) man has to pay considerably more, in some case almost double, than a single woman to insure his vehicle???

Can you say "Shoe on the other foot"???

I mean men literally save 50% more than women.  That is one reason why women are not getting rich.

But then again, the vast majority of the time, on a night out, the man picks up the tab.

Maybe that's why men aren't getting rich.

I mean I don't have to repeat for the hair cut, dry cleaning, these men even score with the ladies night at the bar.

I think the price for a "cut" vs the price for a "style" holds considerable disparancy.

But, as has been pointed out already, have you ever gone into a barber shop (not salon) and asked for a brushcut???

Do so, and ask what you would be charged. Report back here with the result. TENHUT!!!!

  Women’s clothing are far more expensive than men plus they have to buy more variety. 

Variety??? I am not forcing you to buy "variety". Neither is anyone else.

As for pricing, that depends where you shop, and how expensive your tastes are.

Looking through Sears catalogues and the like, I don't see where women have to spend so much more than men.

If one of them (men) had whispered secretly that he was wearing the same suit for the three day - I am more inclined to believe this.  The women of course must change, different hairdo, different suits, different shoes, oh, the variety. 

The women "must" change??? It seems to me that this is their own choice. Perhaps it's driven by vanity.

Long ago I learnt that being a female has its many disadvantages, but we also learn about the evils around us and make sure to send men to the cleaners instead of trying to be too brave 

Long ago I leaned that being a male has many disadvantages. The difference is we are expected to not whine about it.

______________________________________________

Men nowadays are waiting to secure weath and decidingly are marrying or doing some common law in their thirties. They then acquire some children and gets a divorce when the women are in their forties.

At which point the woman's divorce lawyer secures for her the children, the house, and the vast majority of the "wealth" the man has accumulated. In addition, support payments guarantee that she continues to acquire a fairly large portion of the man's income for many years following the divorce.

Since the emphasis is placed on reproducing wealth among men, women are burden with the helplessness of trying to get rich in a man's world and later handed the children.  Remind me how a woman can get rich. 

Many seem to use the method I pointed out above.

I always pay a ladies price to dry-clean my men's shirt even when I point out it is a man's shirt - my guess is they usually go by the smell when the female takes in the shirts. 

Then stand there and tell them you refuse to pay "ladies" price for "mens" shirts. If they object, say the shirt belongs to your husband. Write a letter to the papers. Take them to Small Claims Court.

Rather than complaining, take action.

  This familiar system is perpetuated to a male advantage and is a problem, for example with the buying of insurance, the buying of auto parts, or a new car. 

Re: insurance, see my statement above.

Re: buying a car, anyone can get ripped off.

  I mean I don't think all men are mechanics and know the ins and outs of car.  But in order for women not to be ripped off - they have to take painful efforts to learn the mechanics of the car. 

In ANY business you will find predatory practices. The trick with these kind of people is all a matter of appearances.

There's a book, "Auto Repair for Dummies".

Get it. Learn a few VERY basic things from the book. Then learn a bit of jargon.

You'd be amazed what happens when you approach a mechanic, and rather than saying "It's broken", you say something like "It seems to be starved for fuel, perhaps the filter is clogged". Or "It's pulling to the left, I think it needs an alignment", or "A couple cylinders are missing, might just need plugs or wires".

Virtually any sympton your vehicle displays can be found in this book in a matter of minutes (there's a table of symptoms/solutions in the back pages). By doing this, you can fool a mechanic into thinking you know what you're talking about. Eventually, you DO know.

Un-educated consumers have no one to blame but themselves. Period.

  Here is what I am thinking that women have to in essence work harder, be paid less, and waste their time on nothingness to receive the same service as men.

On the other hand, men don't have the leisure to say "I'll just make myself pretty, and marry someone rich so I don't have to work".

Or better yet "I'll let some drunk, rich guy knock me up, then sue him for support".

women can choose to do much, but also the means of their success is dependant on how seductive they are.  It is the way they look for growth, for a partner. It is the game they play.  Some women have to promote how exotic they are.  But, women are not the ones with the aces, sorry to say.  I mean women will only defeat themselves in rebelling amongst themselves.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here???

As who holds the aces, we are all born with potential tools. How we choose to develop and use these tools varies with each individual. Women have a far wider range of choices available to them. Rather than repeatedly chanting your mantra about how oppressed women are, try developing and using some of the tools you have available to you. You might find more satisfaction that way.

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Michael Hardner

Posted on Mar 18 2005, 09:16 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE 

Men nowadays are waiting to secure weath and decidingly are marrying or doing some common law in their thirties. They then acquire some children and gets a divorce when the women are in their forties. Since the emphasis is placed on reproducing wealth among men, women are burden with the helplessness of trying to get rich in a man's world and later handed the children. Remind me how a woman can get rich.

How often does this scenario happen, though ? Is this typical ? And even if it does happen, a divorce usually involves a splitting of the assets.

Source: Statistics Canada

mean age of male marrying

year 2000 - 33.5 years

year 2001 - 33.6 years

year 2002 - 33.6 years

Please visit here for Statistics Canada

Divorce:

year 2002 - 34%

year 2003 - 37%

most divorces occur within 3 years of marriage

separation would be an add on figure - might climb to 50% I didn't check that stats

but 60% of the children born to common-law partners saw their parents separate

In 2001, 81% of lone-parent families were headed by a woman

Now the splitting of the assets - for common law you leave with what you brought into the relationship - and split the time you were together

For marriage as males you get ruined - I think it is about this 'till death vow that you make

But the women never gets rich off your tiny bits of assets since you saddle them with greater than 3 kids

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Not bad, but I disagree with some of it...

Now the splitting of the assets - for common law you leave with what you brought into the relationship - and split the time you were together

For marriage as males you get ruined - I think it is about this 'till death vow that you make

But the women never gets rich off your tiny bits of assets since you saddle them with greater than 3 kids

I don't think that's true of common law, and especially not if you have kids to support.

You admit that males get 'ruined' ?

And... how many families have more than 3 kids ?

I'll grant you that there are a lot of poor single-mother families, but how many of them have a wealthy male that's refusing to pay up ?

Not sure...

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I ask, which gender designs the machines to process men clothing?. Isn’t it the men who are serving their own interest? Men have no desire to figure a machine to process women’s clothes in masses for efficiency and for cheap.

Now a days it could be male or female. Men wear a basic shirt style year after year; women do not. These machines are expensive and take up space. How do you design an effective pressing machine that allows the always changing womens styles. Women would have to decide to wear a uniform style clothing to make this financially viable.

Clothing is charged by different materials and colours.

Dark colours where the colours may run in laundry (male or female) are charged more.

Changing materials and clothing styles can get complicated; to have a expert at the counter that can discriminate effectively would be expensive and staff hard to find so some cleaners take the easy route and charge more for ladies. Shell buttons and other fancy buttons are a concern,

Myself, I do have a knowledge of drycleaning, spotting, pressing and laundry beyond the average cleaner or counter personnel.

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As who holds the aces, we are all born with potential tools. How we choose to develop and use these tools varies with each individual. Women have a far wider range of choices available to them. Rather than repeatedly chanting your mantra about how oppressed women are, try developing and using some of the tools you have available to you. You might find more satisfaction that way.

There is something called male privilege. The mere fact that a male is born, he is already placed into an advantageous position in society. It is difficult for men to acknowledge their position because then they would have to submit to giving up some of those unearned privileges.

My assessment of women's issues is usually shape by the discrepancies and controversies that I have observed.

And I have observed that male privileges negates the needs and rights of others such as women

So you can't really conclude ... that the sexes should begin at the same starting point to pursue their own interest. To start off there is unfairness, there is the usual inequitable opportunity, limited rights and now you want to turn around in expectancy and look for fair outcomes. Question yourselves how come men are successful. Oh, and I am fed-up with the conceited line men usually give "I am smart"

I am glad you mentioned we are born with potential tools. When I look at say men and war as in Iraq war it all conjures up imagery of maleness and power. Here is the example of maleness and war. It is all about weaponry with major thrusting of missiles with its piercing and explosive sounds. I mean these are all languages women know (that tool word), its mimics of the phallic side of sex. How interesting, a major overgrowth of men.

Micheal Hardner seem to think that there needs to be a cultural shift and a rise to some conscious level of the available choices that people should not be influenced or pressured

I am more incline to believe that the role of feminism can over power and dominate masculinity serving to neutralise this aggressiveness men seem to be born with.

But, as has been pointed out already, have you ever gone into a barber shop (not salon) and asked for a brushcut??? Do so, and ask what you would be charged. Report back here with the result.

14$ for males 45$ for females

Looking through Sears catalogues and the like, I don't see where women have to spend so much more than men.

Maybe the men are smarter in their buying habits, well the males excutives usually order custom shirts from the stichers @ $12 per shirt and they order supplies to last at least 6 months. Recently some of the females have joined that group. A comparable ladies shirt would be worth greater than 70$ and ladies suit cost 400$.

The ladies wear variety because they are fashionable, it is an expectation, they want to be promotable and receive handsome rewards for dressing the part.

At which point the woman's divorce lawyer secures for her the children, the house, and the vast majority of the "wealth" the man has accumulated. In addition, support payments guarantee that she continues to acquire a fairly large portion of the man's income for many years following the divorce.

The statistics don't paint the picture of divorce or single women with custody of the child being rich. They bearly survive and are mostly poor. But, one of the characteristics of women as was Eve is well just being vindictive and cunning. But, women also pay alimony to men even when they have the child - the law is fair.

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Maybe the men are smarter in their buying habits, well the males excutives usually order custom shirts from the stichers @ $12 per shirt and they order supplies to last at least 6 months. Recently some of the females have joined that group. A comparable ladies shirt would be worth greater than 70$ and ladies suit cost 400$.

Where can you get a custom made shirt for 12 dollars. Order me 100. A cheap custom made regular cotton shirt is $80. Most executives, lawyers, bankers that I know wear shirts costing about $200.

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Dear RB,

I am more incline to believe that the role of feminism can over power and dominate masculinity serving to neutralise this aggressiveness men seem to be born with.
You seem to want to fight fire with fire, trying to beat aggressive dominance with even greater aggressive dominance. That will never work, escalation's logical conclusion is annihilation.
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