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betsy

Countdown on France

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We saw the violent clashes in France.  Macron decided to suspend the tax hike.   But apparently that's not enough.  There's another protest planned for this coming Saturday - and many groups are joining.  The woman being interviewed said that there are many small groups - and that they seem to be conducting "guerilla-like" tactics.

 

Are we seeing the start of a revolution?

 

 

 

Quote

 

How Facebook Groups sparked a crisis in France

The Yellow Vest movement was organized on Facebook — and now it has spilled into the streets

 

There is also no clear media consensus as to what they are protesting beyond the cost of gas. To some observers, the protesters are primarily angry about what they see as President Emmanuel Macron’s apparent indifference toward tough conditions for working people. To others, the movement is evidence of a middle-class backlash. Meanwhile, it’s not automatically easy to say whether the protest cleaves more to the left or the right.

What commentators are saying, both inside France and out, is that the movement has been organized primarily on Facebook. The writer Frederic Filloux described some of the group’s methods:

 

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/4/18119777/yellow-vest-france-facebook-groups-gilets-jaunes

 

Edited by betsy

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Its always been unstable in France. In fact if you look at the history of labour strife in Paris, its been continuous since WW2. The country has been bankrupt since WW2. It would not exist  as we know it without that huge infusion  of money from the US post WW2. Then and I have nothing against unions per se, the union movement got to the point where the majority of French are in a union and its made work productivity very problematic. As it is the entire country takes the summer off.

Let's be honest, Spain, France, Italy they all are collapsed economies at this point along with Greece. Portugal is an agrarian economy and so you have what in Europe...Germany basically carries the show. Britain and Holland have their own traditional way of doing things with their own deep problems of unemployment. Eire had a brief revolution of sorts with computer technology then went bust again. Denmark is having internal problems with tax rates as well. So? Scandinavia? Sweden and Norway have issues. Everyone in Europe does. Other than Germany who has an economy that works?

You have conditions ripe for another Hitler or Hitlers across Europe. Sweden voted in very right wing people. So did Poland and Hungary. Its a powder keg similar to the Europe prior to WW2.

It has complex regional issues fueled by centuries old ethnic and cultural divisions within countries let alone between countries-then add the influx of poor African, Asian and Middle Eastern migrants and its an explosive mix of anger, resentment. Could France implode. Its happened before. DeGaulles technically got elected a second time round as a reaction to a collapse over the Algerian war. In the 60's it had wide spread riots in reaction to DeGaulles, Pompideau, Valerie Discard Destang who actually was very similar to Macron.  France is an interesting mix of right wing illuminati bankers so to speak and commies. Its a volatile mix. Corrupt as hell too.

 

 

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Demonstrators of all backgrounds and political views seem united on one point – a personal disgust with Macron, whose “arrogance” they cite from televised examples, including the time he told an unemployed person to just “cross the road” to find a job, or when he wagged a finger to tell pensioners they shouldn’t complain.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/07/macrons-arrogance-unites-us-on-the-barricades-with-frances-gilets-jaunes

Must be his version of...."let them eat cake."

 

 

Edited by betsy

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It's spreading now to other countries, Netherlands and Belgium coming up 

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21 minutes ago, scribblet said:

It's spreading now to other countries, Netherlands and Belgium coming up 

There's a good column in today's Toronto Star by Rick Salutin, 'France's yellow vests and the tarsands of Alberta', that addresses the social and economic tensions underlying protests against carbon taxation and, more broadly, environmental policy. As Salutin notes, the globalist neo-libs have in the West imposed an economic model intended to squeeze the incomes of ordinary working people, a circumstance that's being exacerbated by adding the burden of yet new layers of environmental taxation on those who've paid the highest price for globalization, Western workers. If one has to choose between paying a tax and putting food on the table, the choice becomes pretty stark and the decision predictable. While progressives tout the transition to a bright new, renewables-focused, future, they provide no clear path to their nirvana nor any plan to sustain those displaced during the transition. Salutin channels Lenin, noting that real "power lies in the street [i.e. the citizenry], waiting to be picked up by whoever has the guts to take leadership" to impose order in the conflict between the inhumane and unfair outcomes globalization has wrought and the public's reaction to those conditions.

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Macron is down to an 18% approval rating with riots in streets, Paris on fire, and the economy in ruin.  The middle class revolt is spreading, but is it enough to stop globalism’s attempt to take down the west’s independence, sovereign rights and success while attempting to bring homogenization to the world?    

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1 hour ago, turningrite said:

There's a good column in today's Toronto Star by Rick Salutin, 'France's yellow vests and the tarsands of Alberta', that addresses the social and economic tensions underlying protests against carbon taxation and, more broadly, environmental policy. As Salutin notes, the globalist neo-libs have in the West imposed an economic model intended to squeeze the incomes of ordinary working people, a circumstance that's being exacerbated by adding the burden of yet new layers of environmental taxation on those who've paid the highest price for globalization, Western workers. If one has to choose between paying a tax and putting food on the table, the choice becomes pretty stark and the decision predictable. While progressives tout the transition to a bright new, renewables-focused, future, they provide no clear path to their nirvana nor any plan to sustain those displaced during the transition. Salutin channels Lenin, noting that real "power lies in the street [i.e. the citizenry], waiting to be picked up by whoever has the guts to take leadership" to impose order in the conflict between the inhumane and unfair outcomes globalization has wrought and the public's reaction to those conditions.

It's as I said earlier, somewhere else (I can't remember where!  Is that a problem?)  globalism is like colonialism.  Like it, hate it, say what you will about it, it is inevitable. 

It's the same with Climate Change.  Those in Poland at the moment might as well hit the bar.  Take Sir David with them.  He deserves a beer.  The French protests have pretty much put the last nail in the coffin of any serious attempt to come up with a plan for effective mitigation.  Arm up, tie yourself down, and ride it out.  See what the world looks like when attrition has done the job humans couldn't do.

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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It's as I said earlier, somewhere else (I can't remember where!  Is that a problem?)  globalism is like colonialism.  Like it, hate it, say what you will about it, it is inevitable. 

 

All ideologically grounded economic systems are essentially self-limiting as they generate the contradictions and conditions that lead to their own destruction. Call this dialectical process, or whatever other analytical framework might pertain, but it is inevitable. No ideological system can be sustained over the long run without competition. The most prosperous form of capitalism yet devised, the so-called mixed market economy, developed in response to both the decline of colonialist mercantilism and the emergence in communism of a competitive ideology. The decline and fall of the Soviet bloc in the late 1980s, accompanied by capitalist triumphalism, resulted in the ascendancy of neo-lib globalism. But neo-lib corporate globalism cannot survive for long if its consequences become so negative that democratic electorates reject it. Some politicians, like Trudeau, think they can soften its hard edges but I don't think they understand the degree of damage their ideology is causing. When it all collapses, as it must do if it fails to adopt necessary reforms, things could get very messy.

Edited by turningrite

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6 minutes ago, turningrite said:

All ideologically grounded economic systems are essentially self-limiting as they generate the contradictions and conditions that lead to their own destruction. Call this dialectical process, or whatever other analytical framework might pertain, but it is inevitable. No ideological system can be sustained over the long run without competition. The most prosperous form of capitalism yet devised, the so-called mixed market economy, developed in response to both the decline of colonialist mercantilism and the emergence in communism of a competitive ideology. The fall of the Soviet bloc in the late 1990s, accompanied by capitalist triumphalism, solidified the ascendancy of neo-lib globalism. But neo-lib corporate globalism cannot survive for long if its consequences become so negative that democratic electorates reject it. Some politicians, like Trudeau, think they can soften its hard edges but I don't think they understand the degree of damage their ideology is causing. When it all collapses, as it must do if its fails to adopt necessary reforms, things could get very messy.

I don't think there is any argument on the messy part.  When I say globalism is inevitable I mean from the aspiration and practical application point of view.  If you already have what you want, you're not going to tell anyone else they can't have it.  I didn't say it would result in us moving forward into "broad, sunlit uplands".  Rather, it's probably going to result in disaster for many.

Edited by bcsapper

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Even though I don't give monkeys about that pos Macron but who would there to be replace him if he resigned? Believe it would never be Le Pen. 

Namely, Le Pen and her and her father's party are too closely associated with the most humiliating episode of French history, the Vichy-regime. 

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Macron is going to be around until 2022 as that's when his term as president ends. However, he is already a lame duck. Three and half years is a long time to be a lame duck president. 

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On 12/7/2018 at 10:04 AM, scribblet said:

It's spreading now to other countries, Netherlands and Belgium coming up 

I read this morning that the government of Belgium could fall in the wake of that country's government signing the UN's Compact for Migration. This, of course, follows the protests that have emerged in Belgium along similar lines to the bigger ones in France relating to the grievances of lower income working people. You have to wonder whether these conflicts will be contained or, instead, spread to other Western countries. The instability generated by globalism's repression of Western workers and citizens of ordinary means will no doubt be more acutely felt as time passes. One of the most likely scenarios is the election of more populist politicians on both the right and left.

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On 12/7/2018 at 3:28 PM, -TSS- said:

Even though I don't give monkeys about that pos Macron but who would there to be replace him if he resigned? Believe it would never be Le Pen. 

Namely, Le Pen and her and her father's party are too closely associated with the most humiliating episode of French history, the Vichy-regime. 

People in democracies have short memories.

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This is why we need protections, both from corporate pressure to automate and offshore/outsource the middle class on the one hand, and from drastic measures  that governments impose on human freedom, including protections from exhorbitant taxation (with and without representation) and wreckless environmental deregulation or over-regulation, uncontrolled immigration, and other policies that destabilize regions and threaten cultures.  It’s a tricky mid-path, but inaction is irresponsible.  Overemphasizing the importance of one factor or side of the equation is also damaging.  It’s not really about fighting globalism, because fair global rules are needed to fix the negatives of globalization.  The rules can’t be onerous, whatever level of government implements them.  What’s happening in France is a rebellion against harsh national tax policies. We’ll see how Trudeau fares with the carbon tax. 

Edited by Zeitgeist

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20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

This is why we need protections, both from corporate pressure to automate and offshore/outsource the middle class on the one hand, and from drastic measures  that governments impose on human freedom, including protections from exhorbitant taxation (with and without representation) and wreckless environmental deregulation or over-regulation, uncontrolled immigration, and other policies that destabilize regions and threaten cultures.  It’s a tricky mid-path, but inaction is irresponsible.  Overemphasizing the importance of one factor or side of the equation is also damaging.  It’s not really about fighting globalism, because fair global rules are needed to fix the negatives of globalization.  The rules can’t be onerous, whatever level of government implements them.  What’s happening in France is a rebellion against harsh national tax policies. We’ll see how Trudeau fares with the carbon tax. 

You don't think the measures required to fight AGW are going to be onerous?  At least now we know we don't have to put up with them.  Vive la France!  Tossers.

Edited by bcsapper

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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

You don't think the measures required to fight AGW are going to onerous?  At least now we know we don't have to put up with them.  Vive la France!  Tossers.

Do you propose giving up on putting a price on pollution?  Do you think technology will save us from climate change or that we might as well give up and focus on adapting?  I also oppose a carbon tax the way Trudeau has structured it, but some kind of cap and trade is needed.  I think the adaptation route is disastrous. 

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13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Do you propose giving up on putting a price on pollution?  Do you think technology will save us from climate change or that we might as well give up and focus on adapting?  I also oppose a carbon tax the way Trudeau has structured it, but some kind of cap and trade is needed.  I think the adaptation route is disastrous. 

A carbon tax would be okay, but I think the burning cars might be a mixed blessing.  On the one hand, you take all those cars out of the equation, but on the other, the pollution!

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