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Will Canada follow through and extradite Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou?

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5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Regardless, Trump has confronted China in biggly ways...Trudeau has not...because he is afraid to do so.

Frankly, watching Canada's present putz PM, I am convinced that he has none of the backbone or decisiveness of his father, Pierre Trudeau.

It's entertaining to watch each time Justin gets his tits in the wringer, only to do it again.

 

You can't argue with me about JT.  I probably have a lower opinion of him than you do.  I just have a similar opinion of DT.

Edited by bcsapper

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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You can't argue with me about JT.  I probably have a lower opinion of him than you do.  I just have a similat opinion of DT.

 

Doesn't matter either way...I am outcome based on such matters, and when it comes to confronting China, Trump matters much more than Trudeau.

Trudeau can't even get domestic energy policy right...

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19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I doubt Trump has ever done anything due to backbone.  He probably has bone spurs on it.

 

Ya got that right, he can't even fire someone face to face.

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31 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I reread it, saw how it sounded, and changed my post.

The present abomination in the White House makes the question a lot harder than it should be.

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Now that Trump has basically admitted political interference in Meng's arrest, one wonders if the US extradition request will still hold water.

I can just see his sane advisors (if he has any left) telling him to STF up.

Edited by Wilber

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These stupid remarks by Trump make our arrest of Meng look like a political move orchestrated by the president and further endanger Canadians in China. 

Quote

 

Although it’s heartening to see pushback from Freeland and US politicians the damage has been done. 

Quote

Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland on Wednesday warned the U.S. not to politicize extradition cases, saying that the legal process should not be hijacked for political purposes.

"Our extradition partners should not seek to politicize the extradition process or use it for ends other than the pursuit of justice and following the rule of law," she said when asked about Trump's interview with Reuters where he reportedly said he would intervene in the case if it helped secure a trade deal with Beijing.

...Back in the U.S., Senator Richard Blumenthal said at a Senate hearing on Chinese espionage that he was worried about Trump's comment as it made it look like U.S. law enforcement was "a tool of either trade or political or diplomatic ends of this country."

In response, Assistant Attorney General John Demers affirmed that the Justice Department is not "a tool of trade."

"What we do at the Justice Department is law enforcement. We don't do trade," Demers said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/huaw...intervene.html

 

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On 12/9/2018 at 8:57 PM, jbg said:

First, will Canada follow through and extradite Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou? It should, for the good of the West.

Finally, the U.S. has woken up. Wealthy people who live in unfree and illiberal countries want and need access to the West or life would be miserable. They want access to New York City and Toronto for business and entertainment. Beijing and Shanghai have nothing to match Wall Street, Bay Street or either country's live theater and music.

Excerpt from NY Times article Meng Wanzhou Was Huawei’s Professional Face, Until Her Arrest:

The Chinese are upset about these events. See Huawei Arrest Tests China’s Leaders as Fear and Anger Grip Elite:

Indeed, it's good that they should worry. Theft is theft; I am getting tired of diplomats who are more interested in their popularity at cocktail parties with their adversaries than protecting their own country.

 

 

 

'Canada' can't follow through on anything since 'Canada' has no say in it. It's in the hands of a judge to decide based on the rule of law. That's it.

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On 12/9/2018 at 7:17 PM, paxamericana said:

Yes, Canada will kowtow to Beijing. Question is, what are the consequences for doing that when it comes to America?

Not good for Canada if they butt kiss China and throw America to the side lines. Canada is already a bad boy in the bad books of America now. But was it not our dear leader kid Trudeau who once said that "he admired how China does things". I guess that might mean that the kid wished that Canada was a communist country like his old man. Poor old king Trudeau is indeed now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Although Christy Freeland is trying to play both sides here she better learn very soon as to what side she really needs to be on. Canada does not need China as much as Canada needs America our good friend and neighbor. This is going to be fun to watch and wait and see. :D

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16 minutes ago, taxme said:

.... Although Christy Freeland is trying to play both sides here she better learn very soon as to what side she really needs to be on. Canada does not need China as much as Canada needs America our good friend and neighbor. This is going to be fun to watch and wait and see. :D

 

Very true, and moreover, Chrystia Freeland did not make a speech begging China to continue carrying the burden of protecting the "post WW2" order with blood and treasure.

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34 minutes ago, taxme said:

Not good for Canada if they butt kiss China and throw America to the side lines. Canada is already a bad boy in the bad books of America now. But was it not our dear leader kid Trudeau who once said that "he admired how China does things". I guess that might mean that the kid wished that Canada was a communist country like his old man. Poor old king Trudeau is indeed now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Although Christy Freeland is trying to play both sides here she better learn very soon as to what side she really needs to be on. Canada does not need China as much as Canada needs America our good friend and neighbor. This is going to be fun to watch and wait and see. :D

It appears the U.S. has put Canada in a very difficult position. Whether the American intent is to use the extradition treaty between the two countries to exert its extraterritorial clout or more problematically, as Trump has appeared to suggest, to use Ms. Meng as a bargaining chip in a broader trade war between the U.S. and China, Canada's position in this fiasco is increasingly untenable. Were I in charge in Ottawa, I'd tell the Americans to very quickly provide a credible case for Ms. Meng's extradition or Canada will have to release her and allow her to return to China.

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8 minutes ago, turningrite said:

It appears the U.S. has put Canada in a very difficult position. Whether the American intent is to use the extradition treaty between the two countries to exert its extraterritorial clout or more problematically, as Trump has appeared to suggest, to use Ms. Meng as a bargaining chip in a broader trade war between the U.S. and China, Canada's position in this fiasco is increasingly untenable. Were I in charge in Ottawa, I'd tell the Americans to very quickly provide a credible case for Ms. Meng's extradition or Canada will have to release her and allow her to return to China.

 

Canada has put itself in this position, strangling itself by worshiping at the alter of "rules based order" even when there is no advantage in doing so.   China has correctly determined that is was Canada that arrested and detained a Chinese national, not the United States.   China has avoided direct confrontation with the U.S., preferring countermeasures through less powerful nations aligned with the Americans. 

Canada should never have arrested Weng if evidence was not forthcoming in the intial filing.  We don't know yet how much information was shared about Weng before any of this happened.    Maybe Weng will be getting her $10.5 million too after all the dirt comes out.

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23 minutes ago, turningrite said:

It appears the U.S. has put Canada in a very difficult position. Whether the American intent is to use the extradition treaty between the two countries to exert its extraterritorial clout or more problematically, as Trump has appeared to suggest, to use Ms. Meng as a bargaining chip in a broader trade war between the U.S. and China, Canada's position in this fiasco is increasingly untenable. Were I in charge in Ottawa, I'd tell the Americans to very quickly provide a credible case for Ms. Meng's extradition or Canada will have to release her and allow her to return to China.

I do not see having the woman arrested and then trying to use her for some kind of a bargaining chip in the USA trade war with China is puzzling to me. I don't quite get that. I do agree that Canada is indeed been placed in a bad situation right now. There must have been a very good reason for America to have done this. There is maybe more to the story than they will be willing to tell little old me. After all, I am just one of those lowly pawns on that big political chessboard. I am always left out of the loop. :D But it will be interesting to see what is going to happen soon. 

Edited by taxme

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada has put itself in this position, strangling itself by worshiping at the alter of "rules based order" even when there is no advantage in doing so.   China has correctly determined that is was Canada that arrested and detained a Chinese national, not the United States.   China has avoided direct confrontation with the U.S., preferring countermeasures through less powerful nations aligned with the Americans. 

Canada should never have arrested Weng if evidence was not forthcoming in the intial filing.  We don't know yet how much information was shared about Weng before any of this happened.    Maybe Weng will be getting her $10.5 million too after all the dirt comes out.

Well, I believe that the arrest of the Chinese woman was done at the request of the Americans to have her arrested. Canada just went along with it. But as you said, I hope that Canada had a good reason for arresting her or else they have just made a big bad boo-boo. 

Yup, you may have got that right. Canada may have to fork over another 10.5 million tax dollars to the Chinese woman. It will help towards paying off one of her houses in Vancouver. Lol. But hey, what's 10.5 million tax dollars. Peanuts when one compares that miniscule amount to the hundreds of billions of tax dollars that have been already been blown by our dear leaders over the years. But hey! 

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19 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada should never have arrested Weng if evidence was not forthcoming in the intial filing.  We don't know yet how much information was shared about Weng before any of this happened.    Maybe Weng will be getting her $10.5 million too after all the dirt comes out.

Canada apparently acted on the basis of an extradition request duly provided by the Americans. Based on news reports, I believe the U.S. has a few weeks to file the formal extradition application, presumably including the actual charges Ms. Meng faces in the U.S. and evidence to support them. Canadian officials were apparently given a heads-up on the request, which makes one wonder why they didn't inform Ms. Meng of the risk of boarding a flight to Canada? It certainly makes Canada look complicit. Hopefully our officials know what they were doing because based on Freeland's meeting with Mike Pompeo earlier today it doesn't appear the Americans are overly concerned about the blowback Canada is facing from China resulting from our participation in what now appears to be American extraterritorial strong-arming.

Edited by turningrite

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1 minute ago, turningrite said:

Canada apparently acted on the basis of an extradition request duly provided by the Americans. Based on news reports....

 

Agreed, but this is all we know so far, and I suspect much more will surface later.   Canada's current government may be clueless at times, but one would hope that Team Trudeau isn't really stupid enough to fall for a stunt by Team Trump against China sans evidence of crimes by Weng that are also illegal in Canada (i.e. bank fraud).   

Trudeau knew about the request, and moved forward anyway knowing the risk, which is far more with China than the United States.   Any competent eighth grader in Quebec could formulate a reasonable human rights objection to the American request....even a convicted U.S. sex offender that escaped to Canada managed to beat extradition back to the USA.   The context is not just Trump's trade war with China, but the more narrow focus on Huawei's penetration into western ally telecom networks.  

 

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2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed, but this is all we know so far, and I suspect much more will surface later.   Canada's current government may be clueless at times, but one would hope that Team Trudeau isn't really stupid enough to fall for a stunt by Team Trump against China sans evidence of crimes by Weng that are also illegal in Canada (i.e. bank fraud).   

Trudeau knew about the request, and moved forward anyway knowing the risk, which is far more with China than the United States.   Any competent eighth grader in Quebec could formulate a reasonable human rights objection to the American request....even a convicted U.S. sex offender that escaped to Canada managed to beat extradition back to the USA.   The context is not just Trump's trade war with China, but the more narrow focus on Huawei's penetration into western ally telecom networks.  

 

That politicization by the Trump administration weakens the case for extradition.  Trudeau may be naive, but you’re basically saying that when the US Justice Department comes forward with a case for extradition, It can’t be trusted.  I hope the US has a much improved presidential branch in 2020 because of all the damage done to the US’s image internationally and to its democracy. As for China, this incident of China’s kidnapping two Canadians while Meng is out on bail should be instructive for Canada.  Not so fast on trade deals with China, which makes over  three times from Canada what Canada makes from her.  The risks of conducting business in China have gone up and the world is taking note.  Access to our 5G networks should be out of the question for Chinese telecoms at this point.  China better free those Canadians right away if they want to rebuild trust. 

Edited by Zeitgeist

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That politicization by the Trump administration weakens the case for extradition.  Trudeau may be naive, but you’re basically saying that when the US Justice Department comes forward with a case for extradition, It can’t be trusted.  I hope the US has a much improved presidential branch in 2020 because of all the damage done to the US’s image internationally and to its democracy.

 

Doesn't matter...no sovereign state should honor extradition without due diligence.   Canada may have / should have had this scenario already vetted because of the narrow window of opportunity as Weng boarded aircraft.  

Don't worry about the USA's image and reputation, because history is filled with such episodes.   BTW, the next presidential term does not begin until 2021.

 

Quote

As for China, this incident of China’s kidnapping two Canadians while Meng is out on bail should be instructive for Canada.  Not so fast on trade deals with China, which makes over  three times from Canada what Canada makes from her.  The risks of conducting business in China have gone up and the world is taking note.  Access to our 5G networks should be out of the question for Chinese telecoms at this point.  China better free those Canadians right away if they want to rebuild trust. 

 

Gee....other nations seem to have already figured this out.   What took Canada so long ?

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17 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed, but this is all we know so far, and I suspect much more will surface later.   Canada's current government may be clueless at times, but one would hope that Team Trudeau isn't really stupid enough to fall for a stunt by Team Trump against China sans evidence of crimes by Weng that are also illegal in Canada (i.e. bank fraud).   

 

I wouldn't count on the notion that Team Trudeau won't fall victim to Trump's current campaign against China, assuming this campaign at least in part underpins the Meng extradition request. I think Trudeau was scared s***less by the recent NAFTA/USMCA skirmish with the U.S. and likely doesn't want to create a pretext for Trump to pull the plug on the new deal. Trudeau's team desperately needed a 'victory' and insofar as it reached a trade deal, even if highly problematic and weak in several aspects, with Trump's crew, it likely has no stomach for more such high-wire existential shenanigans leading up to the 2019 federal election. I heard when watching a news report last night that the Americans have until the end of January 2019 to make their case for Meng's extradition. And as Trump's intervention, by means of suggesting that Meng could be used as a bargaining chip, has politicized the matter, It could be a very long and stressful next few weeks for Team Trudeau.

Edited by turningrite

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14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

1.) That politicization by the Trump administration weakens the case for extradition.  

2.) Trudeau may be naive, but you’re basically saying that when the US Justice Department comes forward with a case for extradition, It can’t be trusted.

1.) Except that it may also force Justin's hand as he doesn't want to provide Trump a pretext to pick on Canada, which is a popular strategy among Trump's base. Canada is a low-risk enemy for Trump and the big risk for JT would be that Trump could threaten to tear up the new USMCA deal if Canada doesn't play along with America's broader trade agenda. Part of that agenda is written into the USMCA's provisions.

2.) This is an issue experienced observers are pondering. Trump apparently believes that only weaklings play fair and observe the niceties of the rule of law. The independence of American institutions up to and including the Supreme Court is being subverted by naked politicization, although to be fair this process began long before Trump's tenure. He's simply exacerbated the situation.

Edited by turningrite

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1 hour ago, turningrite said:

1.) Except that it may also force Justin's hand as he doesn't want to provide Trump a pretext to pick on Canada, which is a popular strategy among Trump's base. Canada is a low-risk enemy for Trump and the big risk for JT would be that Trump could threaten to tear up the new USMCA deal if Canada doesn't play along with America's broader trade agenda. Part of that agenda is written into the USMCA's provisions.

2.) This is an issue experienced observers are pondering. Trump apparently believes that only weaklings play fair and observe the niceties of the rule of law. The independence of American institutions up to and including the Supreme Court is being subverted by naked politicization, although to be fair this process began long before Trump's tenure. He's simply exacerbated the situation.

I hope USMCA gets ripped up.  I say start over with the Dems in office. Parliament shouldn’t ratify without removal of steel and aluminum tariffs. What is our government doing to address those?  

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22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

China better free those Canadians right away if they want to rebuild trust. 

Um giant news flash. China doesn't care what Canada think of them as well.

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6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I hope USMCA gets ripped up.  I say start over with the Dems in office. 

Hillary lost in 2016.... it's 2018... soon to be 2019, you can't say stuff like that anymore. 

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13 hours ago, paxamericana said:

Hillary lost in 2016.... it's 2018... soon to be 2019, you can't say stuff like that anymore. 

The House may not ratify.  Trudeau could be gone next year.  Much can happen.  I’ll say whatever I want. 

Oh and if China doesn’t care about Canada, they don’t need to take our money, which means a lot more to them.  

You and BC always talk about how only the US matters and no one cares about Canada.  Then you don’t understand anti-American sentiment worldwide.  Be thankful that Canada has been an ally, because we’ve taken off some of your rough edge.  The US has caused enough shit on its own.  You’ve blown it with France and Germany.  Don’t worry, you still have support from the fascists. 

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Oh and if China doesn’t care about Canada, they don’t need to take our money, which means a lot more to them.  

Canada is where the corrupt rich chinese who benefited from their position deposit their money. So in fact they don't care about Canada's money. Its the reverse, Canada cares about chinese money.

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You and BC always talk about how only the US matters and no one cares about Canada.  Then you don’t understand anti-American sentiment worldwide.  Be thankful that Canada has been an ally, because we’ve taken off some of your rough edge.  The US has caused enough shit on its own.  

Look, its not like we hate Canada, we just find it amusing to provoke the sort of anti-american sentiment you are referring to because Canada (and the rest of western Europe for that matter) won't admit to its utter dependence on us while simultaneously loathing its own powerless position in the world.  Its more like hazing a little brother. What ever resentment that comes from that goes into a positive feedback loop feeding even more hate amusing us further. As BC put it "it's a gift that keep on giving" 

Edited by paxamericana

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