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Are humans really responsible for climate change?

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To answer the question, the evidence seems to point that way ever more conclusively:

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It is now a matter of urgency that the US provides leadership in a program of global action against anthropogenic climate change. 

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Spanky:  The Manchester Guradian has about zero for credibility on anything that may have a political component.

The comments in the link are typical of so much of this debate.  While there is good reason for alarm over climate change, using a 2,000 year window and blaming ALL of what is seen on human activity is not technically honest.   Do we contribute?  Unquestionably, of course, we do.   Are we the sole cause?  THAT is where actual scientists disagree.  The climate of this planet has changed far, far more than what we are experiencing, but the cycles are very long (about 405,000 years) and while we are definitely shitting in our own nest, it is still only a small deviation from the inevitable.

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8 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

To answer the question, the evidence seems to point that way ever more conclusively:

It is now a matter of urgency that the US provides leadership in a program of global action against anthropogenic climate change. 

 

Why is it urgent that the US provides the desired leadership compared to another nation ?

The US already provides more investment in climate change research/data collection than any other country in the world.

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24 minutes ago, cannuck said:

1.  blaming ALL of what is seen on human activity is not technically honest.   Do we contribute? 

2. Are we the sole cause?  THAT is where actual scientists disagree. 

3. The climate of this planet has changed far, far more than what we are experiencing, but the cycles are very long (about 405,000 years) and while we are definitely shitting in our own nest, it is still only a small deviation from the inevitable.

1. I haven't heard that before.  Pretty much every theory that blames other factors has died such as those that blame increasing solar activity or Lindzen's iris effect.  Where else have you heard the 'blame' goes for warming.

2. & 3. Which scientists ?  Cite ?

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It’s true that much warming relates to deforestation and the increased surface area of growing urban areas that absorb heat rather than reflect it back out to space.  One of the biggest concerns is loss of ice/snow cover for that very reason, not to mention the release of more greenhouse gasses such as methane from the thawed earth 

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Seems to me who or what to blame, and how much, is of less importance than doing what we can to mitigate it.  Reducing air travel, personal or corporate, carbon pricing, developing green technologies, reducing consumerism, better recycling, less meat eating are all ways that can help.  None alone are the answer.  Regardless of what we do, if the models are even half right, we're in for a rough time.  If they're 100% wrong, so much the better.  I'd rather be wrong but prepared than right but dead.

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Seems to me who or what to blame, and how much, is of less importance than doing what we can to mitigate it.   

Not who but what to blame.  It's essential to know, to make a response.

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14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Not who but what to blame.  It's essential to know, to make a response.

Good point, I stand corrected.  

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2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Seems to me who or what to blame, and how much, is of less importance than doing what we can to mitigate it.

There's nothing we can do to mitigate it.

World CO2 emission rose 3% last year, which is higher than ALL of Canada's emissions. Get it? If we had completely ended all emissions, world CO2 still would have gone up last year! And they'll go up this year. And next year.

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20 minutes ago, Argus said:

There's nothing we can do to mitigate it.

World CO2 emission rose 3% last year, which is higher than ALL of Canada's emissions. Get it? If we had completely ended all emissions, world CO2 still would have gone up last year! And they'll go up this year. And next year.

I know!  Let's throw our hands in the air and give up!

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4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I know!  Let's throw our hands in the air and give up!

 

As long as the Third World keeps having unlimited babies coupled with OTHER nation's unmitigated polluting...we're heading for Permian 2.0. Canada isn't to blame for this...but you'd like to punish us anyways...correct?

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1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

As long as the Third World keeps having unlimited babies coupled with OTHER nation's unmitigated polluting...we're heading for Permian 2.0. Canada isn't to blame for this...but you'd like to punish us anyways...correct?

Punish us?  Maybe we should just take some responsibility, the thing that conservatives claim they're all about. 

The Western industrialized world are the worst offenders on a per capita basis because of our consumer lifestyle.  People in developing countries have a much smaller carbon footprint because most of them are so poor.  We have two cars each, plenty of toys, warm homes, take vacations to foreign climes, eat (and waste) huge amounts of food.  We can cut back; what can a semi-starving person with no vehicle, no stable housing and no toys do to cut back.

We got ours, we created the problem with our industrialization and modern lifestyle, but now that its time to pay the piper you bunch whine about how it's not our problem, its them over there.

If an "extinction event" is in our future, it should start with the self-entitled Westerner who blames everyone but themselves and refuses to lift a finger because, like a four-year-old, they're busy pointing at their younger brother and crying "but Johnny isn't helping, why should I".  Maybe once they're gone, the rest of us will be able to accomplish something.  

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31 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Punish us?  Maybe we should just take some responsibility, the thing that conservatives claim they're all about. 

The Western industrialized world are the worst offenders on a per capita basis because of our consumer lifestyle.  People in developing countries have a much smaller carbon footprint because most of them are so poor.  We have two cars each, plenty of toys, warm homes, take vacations to foreign climes, eat (and waste) huge amounts of food.  We can cut back; what can a semi-starving person with no vehicle, no stable housing and no toys do to cut back.

We got ours, we created the problem with our industrialization and modern lifestyle, but now that its time to pay the piper you bunch whine about how it's not our problem, its them over there.

If an "extinction event" is in our future, it should start with the self-entitled Westerner who blames everyone but themselves and refuses to lift a finger because, like a four-year-old, they're busy pointing at their younger brother and crying "but Johnny isn't helping, why should I".  Maybe once they're gone, the rest of us will be able to accomplish something.  

 

You're not going to save anything...and you can pretend I'm the problem rather than China or India with their filthy industries and ballooning populations. 

The Earth will be fine in 20 million years or so...after we're all gone. Eco-diversity will grow out of the survivors...just like KT...or Permian...or whatever.

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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

We have two cars each, plenty of toys, warm homes, take vacations to foreign climes, eat (and waste) huge amounts of food.  We can cut back...

Sure we can...Are you?  Or are you waiting for a "responsible government" to mandate you to?  How many cars or toys have you gotten rid of?  How can you possibly justify warming your home with this apparently eminent disaster hanging over your head?  How responsible are you...do you walk the walk or are you just full of hot air?  I bet you could do more, if only a politician told you to.

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1 hour ago, Spiderfish said:

Sure we can...Are you?  Or are you waiting for a "responsible government" to mandate you to?  How many cars or toys have you gotten rid of?  How can you possibly justify warming your home with this apparently eminent disaster hanging over your head?  How responsible are you...do you walk the walk or are you just full of hot air?  I bet you could do more, if only a politician told you to.

One car, got rid of the other one, take transit to/from work and save car for dog-related tasks and grocery shopping.  Minimal meat, very little prepackaged foods or eating out.  Flown out of country twice in 60+ years, and maybe 3 times in-country.  Take bus to visit kids out of town, about 90% of my clothes are second hand.  Recycle everything I can.  

I don't understand why you insist on going to extremes, btw.  It's not a choice between having a mansion and 12 gas-guzzling trucks or shivering in a cave and hunting food with a spear while wearing a loincloth.

It's making choices to consume less, daily, and being willing to pay a couple of bucks on a tank of gas because carbon taxes reduce carbon use.  Its maybe deciding to get that electric vehicle next time you buy a new car, or deciding to let your lawn go brown during the summer.  There are lots of choices people can make and one "green" choice tends to lead to more.

Framing a bit of adjustment to reduce your personal carbon footprint as unendurable hardship that "won't do any good" is pointless and dishonest.

I got many of my ideas from climate scientists who have made changes in their own life.  Government is not a particularly good leader for this, imo, though I much prefer Canada's stance over Trump's.

 

 

Edited by dialamah
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58 minutes ago, dialamah said:

One car, got rid of the other one, take transit to/from work and save car for dog-related tasks and grocery shopping.  Minimal meat, very little prepackaged foods or eating out.  Flown out of country twice in 60+ years, and maybe 3 times in-country.  Take bus to visit kids out of town, about 90% of my clothes are second hand.  Recycle everything I can.  

All on your own..without government mandating a thing or taxing you punitively...excellent.  See, you don't need conservatives, liberals, or any other politician forcing you to make good decisions.  Research and a strong desire to change brought you there already.

 

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I don't understand why you insist on going to extremes, btw.  It's not a choice between having a mansion and 12 gas-guzzling trucks or shivering in a cave and hunting food with a spear while wearing a loincloth.

I'm not going to extremes, I'm merely refuting your implication that warming our homes, driving to work, or taking winter vacations is killing the planet.  In a comparatively sparsely populated country that is 9,984,670 sq. km in size, over 5,500 km from coast to coast, the majority of which is covered in snow 6 months of the year, I think cars and home heating are not that extravagant of ideas.

 

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

It's making choices to consume less,

Couldn't agree more.  ...taking personal responsibility.

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

and being willing to pay a couple of bucks on a tank of gas because carbon taxes reduce carbon use. 

couldn't disagree more. ... political garbage.

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1 minute ago, Spiderfish said:

I'm not going to extremes, I'm merely refuting your implication that warming our homes, driving to work, or taking winter vacations is killing the planet.  In a comparatively sparsely populated country that is 9,984,670 sq. km in size, over 5,500 km from coast to coast, the majority of which is covered in snow 6 months of the year, I think cars and home heating are not that extravagant of ideas.

No, we're almost like harmless little Hobbits.

What's extravagant is doing things like opening up our Tar Sands to exploitation so we can ship the worst most CO2 loaded oil on the planet to a dictatorship that has about as much regard for the planet's environment as it does it's own people.

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No, we're almost like harmless little Hobbits.

How about you champ...you have the furnace removed from your home yet?

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1 minute ago, Spiderfish said:

How about you champ...you have the furnace removed from your home yet?

Installed a woodstove actually. 

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Get rid of gasoline (et al) arbitrarily...billions die...simple as that. Better have cold fusion ready to go...heh.

Or does one think the excess billions will make a go of it as hunter gatherers?

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Installed a woodstove actually. 

Wood heat is so nice, and it's a great way to dodge those punitive carbon taxes.  Puttin one over on the man...good job.

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11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Why is it urgent that the US provides the desired leadership compared to another nation ?

The US already provides more investment in climate change research/data collection than any other country in the world.

Because you have people in many smaller countries like Canada claiming that their greenhouse gas output does not matter because their particular country is too small to affect the overall figure. If the US took the lead it could at least force North America to follow. Then we could see a coalition build to put pressure on the developing world to follow suit. Otherwise we are all headed for climate catastrophe.  

Edited by SpankyMcFarland

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20 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

See, you don't need conservatives, liberals, or any other politician forcing you to make good decisions.  Research and a strong desire to change brought you there already.

Which is also how I came to the conclusion that a couple extra bucks on a tank of gas wasn't any more inconvenient than bringing reusable bags and go-cups to grocery stores and coffee shops.

22 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

I'm merely refuting your implication that warming our homes, driving to work, or taking winter vacations is killing the planet

No individual is killing the planet by taking a winter vacation or warming their homes in the winter.  It's millions or billions of us doing so, without any thought or care about the impact of all of us - death by a billion cuts, so to speak.  Perhaps the same number adjusting their habits by a little bit would mean life by a billion small changes.

40 minutes ago, Spiderfish said:

couldn't disagree more. ... political garbage.

Like I said - research led me to believe this was one of the ways which can help.  What is your reason for calling it garbage?

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Birth control for all would be a great step forward. Not just the option...but mandatory birth control. 

Not gonna happen.

Here's the rub...we should have thought about this MUCH earlier...when we were kids...unfortunately. We're already in the middle of Permian 2.0...will we be a victim of it or will some form humanity survive?

Edited by DogOnPorch

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3 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're not going to save anything...and you can pretend I'm the problem rather than China or India with their filthy industries and ballooning populations. 

The narrative from the left is hopeless. They're not even sure what's more important to decreasing carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere. Total CO2 production, or CO2 production per capita? :wacko:

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