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Should Canada suspend relations with China?


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Given the recent deterioration of our relationship with China, should we not simply withdraw our missions and officials from that country and suspend all other formal relations until the situation is normalized via negotiations? Reportedly, we're sending a parliamentary delegation to China although its leader apparently doesn't intend to raise concerns about Canadian detainees. (See link to news item below.) Why bother, then?  The U.S. has issued a warning for its citizens traveling to China, noting in particular the risk of arbitrary detention. But Canada has apparently issued no such warning in this regard, which seems negligent, at the very least. Are we not just sticking our heads in the proverbial sand about the situation?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4815410/canadian-parliamentary-delegation-china-detainees/

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The country Justin Trudeau most admires because their basic dictatorship can get things done has just sentenced a human rights lawyer who they disappeared several years ago, to another 4 and a half ye

Purposefully misrepresenting my statement is nothing but trolling.

Should we suspend relations? I mean, it would be their loss, since they're exporting way more to us than the other way around. 

14 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Given the recent deterioration of our relationship with China, should we not simply withdraw our missions and officials from that country and suspend all other formal relations until the situation is normalized via negotiations? Reportedly, we're sending a parliamentary delegation to China although its leader apparently doesn't intend to raise concerns about Canadian detainees. (See link to news item below.) Why bother, then?  The U.S. has issued a warning for its citizens traveling to China, noting in particular the risk of arbitrary detention. But Canada has apparently issued no such warning in this regard, which seems negligent, at the very least. Are we not just sticking our heads in the proverbial sand about the situation?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4815410/canadian-parliamentary-delegation-china-detainees/

We must absolutely not withdraw from our relationship with China! 

Our very best position are regards China is exactly the way Trudeau is handling it. We must very quickly withdraw our trade relations with the US and diversify toward China's markets. If we don't then we will be subjected to more US blackmail that has been going on ever since we became a part of NAFTA. And furthermore, the US is the pariah nation that is totally concerned with more wars of aggression against more small countries. As you can witness with the US's 40 wars of aggression since WW2 alone!

China is a rapidly developing country that has rescued many millions of it's people up out of poverty. China may have not advanced to our Western standard of human rights, but they can't be accused of the wars of aggression the US is guilty of, or the many millions of victims of US wars.

How ridiculous to suggest that we withdraw from trade relations with China as at the same time to trade so heavily with the criminal US aggressor! What on earth could you have been thinking? Could this just be another opportunity to bash on Trudeau?

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6 minutes ago, montgomery said:

How ridiculous to suggest that we withdraw from trade relations with China as at the same time to trade so heavily with the criminal US aggressor! What on earth could you have been thinking?

Oh my! Are you wearing a tinfoil hat?

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1 minute ago, montgomery said:

You are once again attacking me and not my opinions. Please stop it right now! If you have a rebuttal to something I've said then please address it in an appropriate way.

Actually, I think it a fair question in response to your bizarre comment. In any case, quid pro quo...

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We must very quickly diversify away from everything to do with the US. It has become a criminal regime being run by a madman psychopath and our cooperation with such just tarnishes Canada's reputation as a peaceful country. (with the exception of our participation in Nato)

China represents peace and legitimate trade relations for Canada. And if the Con party of Canada ever supposes that it can represent the Canadian people, then it has to be a part of our pulling away from the US.

The entire world is aligning on two sides, the US and it's accomplices vs. the BRICS. Canada is aligned with 'the bad guys' on the block and we need to re-evaluate our loyalties. The BRICS is the non-aggressive side and the side that is much more compatible with Canadians' priorities. Or at the very least, we must not continue to be a part of US/Nato aggression against the small countries of the world!

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21 minutes ago, montgomery said:

We must very quickly diversify away from everything to do with the US. It has become a criminal regime being run by a madman psychopath and our cooperation with such just tarnishes Canada's reputation as a peaceful country. (with the exception of our participation in Nato)

China represents peace and legitimate trade relations for Canada. And if the Con party of Canada ever supposes that it can represent the Canadian people, then it has to be a part of our pulling away from the US.

 

The U.S. will have a presidential election in less than two years. No political regime is permanent in that country and the Trump era will likely end fairly swiftly. Could China's "basic dictatorship," as Trudeau has fondly albeit bizarrely described it, change that quickly? Of course not. And where would most of those around the world who would like to leave their own countries move if afforded the opportunity? Well, mainly to the good ole U.S., that's where, according to a 2017 Gallup study - and by a good margin. In fact, China (#18) is precisely nowhere among the top ten preferred destinations, which other than wealthy Saudi Arabia (whose reputation has probably since slipped - wonder why?) are democratic Western countries. I have a soft spot for democracy. Apparently, so do a lot of other people. Peace and opportunity, for most, is represented by democracy. I hope this doesn't ruin your weekend.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/

Edited by turningrite
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3 hours ago, turningrite said:

The U.S. will have a presidential election in less than two years. No political regime is permanent in that country and the Trump era will likely end fairly swiftly. Could China's "basic dictatorship," as Trudeau has fondly albeit bizarrely described it, change that quickly? Of course not. And where would most of those around the world who would like to leave their own countries move if afforded the opportunity? Well, mainly to the good ole U.S., that's where, according to a 2017 Gallup study - and by a good margin. In fact, China (#18) is precisely nowhere among the top ten preferred destinations, which other than wealthy Saudi Arabia (whose reputation has probably since slipped - wonder why?) are democratic Western countries. I have a soft spot for democracy. Apparently, so do a lot of other people. Peace and opportunity, for most, is represented by democracy. I hope this doesn't ruin your weekend.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/

There's little doubt that your 'good ol USA' is preferable to millions of pepole living in countries where US bombs are raining down on them daily and continuously. If only the US would accept their responsibility to accept the refugee crises which they have created. I find it totally outrageous that any Canadian could still support their evil regime! 

The criminal Trump regime and Trump in person has been gleefully been accepted by 90% of that country's conservative rigfhties. They own the evil that is Trump and there's no escaping that fact. Let it be a warning to decent Canadians on what conservatism represents. Trump, the corporate psychopath has brought the real conservative agenda out of the closets and it isn't pretty.

Is that what your CPC friends want for Canada??

Trudeau may be too pretty and too manly for you but he'll never be able to descend to the level of bad government that is now on display in the land of the gun. That my friend is sadly the model the Scheer gang of tyrants want to copy! Shame!

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4 hours ago, montgomery said:

We must very quickly diversify away from everything to do with the US. It has become a criminal regime being run by a madman psychopath and our cooperation with such just tarnishes Canada's reputation as a peaceful country. (with the exception of our participation in Nato)

China represents peace and legitimate trade relations for Canada. And if the Con party of Canada ever supposes that it can represent the Canadian people, then it has to be a part of our pulling away from the US.

The entire world is aligning on two sides, the US and it's accomplices vs. the BRICS. Canada is aligned with 'the bad guys' on the block and we need to re-evaluate our loyalties. The BRICS is the non-aggressive side and the side that is much more compatible with Canadians' priorities. Or at the very least, we must not continue to be a part of US/Nato aggression against the small countries of the world!

That is the last thing Canada should ever do is diversify away from America. Have you gone bonkers? Saudi Arabia is a criminal regime. Look what they do to gays as an example. They throw gays blindfolded off of roof tops and chop peoples heads off but yet Canada still deals with them. Why does Canada deal with those psychopaths then? Do you know why? Yet, don't you think that Canada playing with Saudi Arabia could be seen as tarnishing Canada's reputation as a country that likes to make it appear as though it is ready to fight for human rights. If Trump were a madman psychopath then what the hell is he doing as president of the USA? He should be locked up if he were that nuts. Give me a break. Trump is about to pull troops out of Syria. You should be happy as hell  to hear about that. But with most liberals they do not want to hear anything good about what Trump has and is doing for America and Americans. Liberals only want to try and find something bad about Trump. Bloody crybaby snowflake losers. 

Cuba, North Korea and China are all communist regimes that put people in jail for expressing their opinions and points of view that the commie regimes does not want to hear but yet Canada does not say a thing about their violating human rights. Communism has been responsible for more than hundreds of millions of innocent peoples deaths around the world more than any wars that America ever got itself involved in. Give me a break. If Trudeau can represent Canadians when the whole world pretty much knows that he is an idiot than Scheer should do just fine. 

Canada will do what the globalist international banker elite tell it to do and not what you want it to do. If you want to see a recession in Canada then go ahead and stop all trade with America. There will be millions of Canadians out of work. Canada and America are too intertwined to just say goodbye to each other. I can agree that I do not want Canada to stay in NATO. I would prefer that Canada had no military at all. Canada should become a neutral country. Why not? Save billions. Works for me. :D

 

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Cuba, North Korea, and China have one thing in common and it is that all 3 are intended targets of US aggression. None are guilty of the 40 US wars of aggression that can be pinned on the US And they are also peaceful communist regimes. 

Trump is a psychopath and should be taken down as quickly as possible before he gets an opportunity to start WW3.

Communism is no longer the enemy to fear, if in fact it every was? The Russians aren't coming and they never really were. The US is laying plunder to the small countries of the world and is the evil aggressor. Canada needs to move away from that sort of evil behaviour as quickly as possible.

Scheer is best described as a Nazi in scheep's clothing. If he ever is forced to reveal the true Con agenda, Canadians would be horrified. 

Trump is pretending to pull troops out of Syria but the US never follows through on promises of troop reductions in aggregrate. US troops will be moved from one victim country to another. Have you any idea at all of how many troops the US has in foreign countries throughout the world, and just how many countries it occupies? 

You at least seem to be getting it right with the suggestion of Canada not needing a military. 

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For Canada to defend its sovereignty and way of life, we need a strong military, as we had in both world wars.  Otherwise we’ll always be beholden to international organizations and/or superpowers that have agendas that may not align with Canada’s.  NATO continues to be a protective shield for the allies who fought fascism in WW2 and totalitarian communism after WW2.  China is certainly seeking to become a unipolar superpower.  We can’t be naive.  Russia has demonstrated the desire for empire in Ukraine and the Arctic.  The US has problems and is quite divided right now, but most Americans have similar progressive values to Canadians.  Our federal Conservatives aren’t so different from the federal Liberals.  Both parties stand for an open society and liberal democratic values.

I would never align myself for life with one party and I never agree with all of the positions of a single party.  Voting is always a form of compromise. I think the best bet for Canada is to stand by our values and seek alliances and multilateral support for those values, as we are a middle power that can’t do it all on our own.

I do think we need to recognize that soon Canada will be a much bigger country and we should recognize the responsibilities that go with that in terms of our infrastructure, defence, and trade.  Diversifying trade away from the US isn’t anti-American; it’s wise.  We’re too dependent on the US and we’ve learned that our southern neighbor can be quite belligerent and damaging to allies. However, that doesn’t mean we should follow another power instead.  I like Canada’s policies more than the US’s and even Britain’s, but I like both of those countries’ policies more than China’s or Russia’s.  We need to improve relations with all countries, but kissing up to countries, especially ones with lousy human rights records, is never the answer. Canada is a model country, maybe the freest one.  We need to build on that and work with all countries for human development. 

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"Strong military as we had in both World Wars?"  Don't be absurd, that was full mobilization for total war, never mind that in the context of those wars, the Canadian military (actually the British military in WWI) wasn't strong in relative terms, utterly dwarfed by the major players and even more beholden to them then as we are now.

 

  The "Strong Canadian Military" of the World Wars simply resulted in the British and then the Americans using us as cannon fodder from Ypres to the Somme, Hong Kong to Dieppe.

Reality check, the World Wars were the reason Canadians turned away from military solutions in the first place. Naive as the minimized military Canadian Peacekeeping Myth may be, cant say it's a worse idea then charging over the top into a 100,000 man meat grinder.

Not to mention that strong is all relative. Strong in comparison to whom?  There's absolutely no conventional military threat to Canada whatsoever.  We're not Israel, we're not even Australia. there's no actual threat warranting any expansion of Canadian military power projection, plenty strong enough to enforce offshore fisheries  and aid to the civil power, there's really not much else for the Canadian military to do, unless you want to go military adventuring as a token force with the Americans,  to no particular gain for us, nor them. 

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On 1/5/2019 at 1:01 AM, Dougie93 said:

Reality check, the World Wars were the reason Canadians turned away from military solutions in the first place. Naive as the minimized military Canadian Peacekeeping Myth may be, cant say it's a worse idea then charging over the top into a 100,000 man meat grinder.

Not to mention that strong is all relative. Strong in comparison to whom?  There's absolutely no conventional military threat to Canada whatsoever.  We're not Israel, we're not even Australia. there's no actual threat warranting any expansion of Canadian military power projection, plenty strong enough to enforce offshore fisheries  and aid to the civil power, there's really not much else for the Canadian military to do, unless you want to go military adventuring as a token force with the Americans,  to no particular gain for us, nor them. 

I've long believed that Canada has no fundamental strategic interest other than in maintaining a reasonably harmonious relationship with the U.S., a nation we could never realistically engage in a military conflict. Other than having a requirement to pay a share for continental defense (i.e. NORAD), I think both peacekeeping and our role in NATO should be seriously re-examined.

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Well, Peacekeeping has already been examined, and as a result and for all intents and purposes, we don't do it anymore.  Not even in Mali., because that's not Peacekeeping what they are doing there, the African Union forces are doing the UN Chapter 6 Peacekeeping mission, and even the small casevac unit we have there now is actually being pulled out early.

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I'm surprised so few have weighed in on this topic. It was the basis of the lead editorial in Sunday's Toronto Star, 'Don't undercut strong message', which noted that we cannot at present deal with China on a business-as-usual basis. The Star editorial questions the purpose of the parliamentary delegation being  in China: "So what on earth is a delegation of Canadian parliamentarians doing jetting off to China prepared to deliver a softly-softly message about how relations between the two countries are really just fine?" These are not normal times and the current dispute with China should prompt the Trudeau government to review its approach to dealing with that country. When the generally pro-Lib Toronto Star has jumped on the issue, you have to wonder why so many Canadians seem blase about the situation. If I were one of the Canadians arbitrarily detained in China I think I'd wish that I held a different passport.

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Not to mention that, strong message is a delusion, either Canada defies the Americans and releases Meng Wanzhou, or we are going to be getting the stick from the Chinese and they ain't gonna stop, strong message ain't gonna do shit,  the Chinese will just send that right back at'chas ten times over.

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9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Not to mention that, strong message is a delusion, either Canada defies the Americans and releases Meng Wanzhou, or we are going to be getting the stick from the Chinese and they ain't gonna stop, strong message ain't gonna do shit,  the Chinese will just send that right back at'chas ten times over.

I disagree. All developed countries resent the trade deficit with China, which banks on exports.  Countries are watching China to see if it follows rule of law and can be trusted before making trade deals and investments.  Many countries can make goods cheaply because of cheap offshore labour.  Doesn’t have to be China. 

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 1:01 AM, Dougie93 said:

"

 

  The "Strong Canadian Military" of the World Wars simply resulted in the British and then the Americans using us as cannon fodder from Ypres to the Somme, Hong Kong to Dieppe.

Reality check, the World Wars were the reason Canadians turned away from military solutions in the first place

Without a doubt the most stupid post I have ever read on this forum and that says a lot. Reality check? What a selective revisionist take on history with no reference to Hitler, Korea, the invasion of Canada by the US. You are a classic example of a pimple face historian. Go look that up. Before you pose as an expert on Canadian military history and tlk down to others clear up your pimples and learn about Canadian military history. Start with who Hitler was.

Good God do you even read books? Of course not. Life is a ten second fractured message on the cell phone followed by infinite universal wisdom and awareness.

Someone get me my tranquilizer gun. I need two shots to his left buttocks.  Its clearly out of control.

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7 minutes ago, Rue said:

Without a doubt the most stupid post I have ever read on this forum and that says a lot. Reality check? What a selective revisionist take on history with no reference to Hitler, Korea, the invasion of Canada by the US. You are a classic example of a pimple face historian. Go look that up. Before you pose as an expert on Canadian military history and tlk down to others clear up your pimples and learn about Canadian military history. Start with who Hitler was.

Good God do you even read books? Of course not. Life is a ten second fractured message on the cell phone followed by infinite universal wisdom and awareness.

Someone get me my tranquilizer gun. I need two shots to his left buttocks.  Its clearly out of control.

I agree. He also doesn’t appear to understand the incredible sacrifice Canada made in WW1.  

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10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Not to mention that, strong message is a delusion, either Canada defies the Americans and releases Meng Wanzhou, or we are going to be getting the stick from the Chinese and they ain't gonna stop, strong message ain't gonna do shit,  the Chinese will just send that right back at'chas ten times over.

Either or. Yah I know in your world its all black or white, nice and simplistic, rigid left or right choices.

No that is not how diplomacy or conflicts start or are resolved or communicated. Its all about nuances-what's not said, what is not done, inneuendo, timing, inferences. God would you go clear up your complexion and come back when you can shave-your comments about Canadian military history and international relations and conflict resolution are past naïve and idiotic to the point of absurd.

Stop and think. Hua Wei has been turned down and unable to do business in Australia, New Zealand, the US and Britain. Ring any bells? Ding a ling. Those are intelligence sharing partners. Trudeau told our intelligence sharing partners he didn't care about the intelligence leaks and how Hua Wei platforms were being used to spy on these nations and Canada and Trudeau was on the verge of announcing huge research contracts with Hua Wei that would have compromised intelligence for all these nations. So of course not Trump but the behind the scenes intelligence interest in this issue had the CEO of Hua Wei operating in Vancouver bribing government officials issued with a deportation order.

It was a warning to Trudeau by all these nations not just Trump and it is precisely why the UK, Australia, New Zealand and the US have all said nothing as Canadians get arrested in China.

As for China is hoped by arresting Canadians, to get Trudeau to panic and release this CEO. In fact it did the exact opposite. China finessed itself because international relations is all about saving face. If China really wanted this CEO released it would have never played its hand. In fact Trudeau could have played ignorant and let the CEO plead diplomatic immunity or claim no deportation to the US on the grounds the charges were based on political not legal considerations. Either way she had and still has a very strong legal argument.

China misread Trudeau's idiot statement. Had Trudeau not stated he had full knowledge of the CEO being arrested and instead said he had no knowledge, his foreign affairs office would have intervened and sent her back to China by "bureaucratic mistake" saying the extradition notice didn't get to them in time to stop her from returning to China. Instead the idiot Trudeau immediately claimed he knew she had been served notice, taking away that card to play. Trudeau can not resist the urge to shoot his mouth off in public to make himself look like he knows everything. What an idiot. China not realizing Trudeau is a moron, thought he said what he did  on to side with the US. China thought it was being back stabbed by Canada because they did not realize, no, Trudeau is just a moron.

Canada was the only nation to state it would continue to do business with Hua Wei after all our intelligence allies refused saying they were a spy operation.

Trudeau phacked up big time. He does not understand intelligence priorities and how Hua Wei is a Chinese intelligence platform that piggybacks on all communications systems illegally to suck out confidential trade secrets.

Trudeau is an idiot. . He admires China.

China is also a large blood clot like Trudeau's brain. No oxygen is getting to the head of the Communist Party.

These idiots are too stupid to study the laws of Canada to understand how they work and how no one gets extradited for political reasons.

Trump openly stated he was going to use the CEO of Hua Wei as a trade chip to get a better bargain for the US in trade with China. That stupid public comment evidences the arrest is for political not legal reasons this providing a golden opportunity to vitiate the extradition request.

As well the trade sanctions the US has charged the CEO with breaking are not recognized by Canada.

People need to slow down and understand this is just another manufactured crisis.

We are dealing with intelligence concerns, spying, compromising trade secrets, trade battles between Canada and the US over who gets a better deal with China and out intelligence allies pissed off at Canada.

In the meantime the Stalinist thug running China evidences he is one stupid man. He got to where he was by being a Kim of Korea-someone who does not create or initiate and only reacts and creates power through murdering his opposition.

The leader of China is a Stalinist-a thug dictator. Mao tried that. He lasted as long as he did by killing millions. This man is now doing the same but Mao eventually had strokes and dementia and was surrounded by back-stabbing vipers who took out all his teeth and left him to gum at his porridge. Eventually the same will happen with this latest Stalin-Maoist thig if an internal revolution by his own military does not dethrone him.

He has made a big show in the South Pacific sea with man made islands and a huge increase in naval ships, but his air force is a joke and he can barely feed his soldiers and his state of the art warships have defective surveillance, radar and electronic technology easily jammed.

China is a credit threat not military thread. It can take down our Western economy in minutes. It doesn't need a military to screw us.

Eventually this woman will fly back to China. This is just another fake crisis.

Now if you ask me I think Canada should take its air force whose jets no longer operate and non existent navy and attack China.

What a joke. Trudeau the genius ordered the replacement of rotting of F-18's with rotting F-18's from Australia. Brilliant move. How about or navy. We have I believe at this point 3 vessels that can operate. But hey who needs a military. You know the world is a great place. Never mind the illegals flooding our borders, the drugs coming in our unguarded borders, the sex trafficking-who needs borders patrolled? Oh come on man, like wow, military is like so like so imperialist man. Let's have a doobie and export or laws of smoking doobies to China man. We have so much to share, man.

 

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 4:03 PM, montgomery said:

 

China represents peace and legitimate trade relations for Canada. And if the Con party of Canada ever supposes that it can represent the Canadian people, then it has to be a part of our pulling away from the US.

China does not represent peace OR legitimate trade relations. Canada does not get the same reciprocity from China, they can buy land, but we cannot. That kind of thing. China is a huge threat via cyber threats and they are a huge thief of intellectual property on a global scale.

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10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The delegation that went to China were not sent by the Government, those are MP's not under the control of Trudeau deciding to go on their own, so I can't hold him nor the Government responsible for that.

It's irresponsible, one way or the other. They should have had the good sense to stay home. The fact that Trudeau didn't order Lib MPs to cancel their participation in the trip in fact generates an impression of government consent.

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1 hour ago, turningrite said:

It's irresponsible, one way or the other. They should have had the good sense to stay home. The fact that Trudeau didn't order Lib MPs to cancel their participation in the trip in fact generates an impression of government consent.

That's not how the office of Prime Minister works, Trudeau is not King, he can't order people around like that.   It's not an official delegation, they're traveling as private citizens,  there's no Oval Office in Canada, Prime Ministers can't just go around denying people exit from Canada with no legal basis.

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1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

China does not represent peace OR legitimate trade relations. Canada does not get the same reciprocity from China, they can buy land, but we cannot. That kind of thing. China is a huge threat via cyber threats and they are a huge thief of intellectual property on a global scale.

What could any Canadian have against Chinese people buying land in Canada. They're wonderful immigrants and usuallly excel in anything they do. 

And why would China want outsiders to buy land in China when they already have a billion and a half people.

Does your objection have something to do with racial differences? 

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