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turningrite

Should Canada suspend relations with China?

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8 minutes ago, turningrite said:

The fact that he shouldn't have spoken his mind in such a fashion as to undermine the government's position is now patently obvious.

The fact he did anyway remains.  It'll make my day it did manage to undermine our governments position and better yet damage our relations with the US.  That said I'm a little put out that Trump wasn't triggered, it probably would have taken some of the heat of his other troubles. Probably to stupid to realize the opening McCallum gave him. 

Quote

Trudeau says he won't replace McCallum at this point, but the ambassador's credibility has certainly suffered. It seems likely he won't serve in the position for much longer.

Maybe he just wanted to go out with a bang.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Maybe he just wanted to go out with a bang.

If he truly disagrees with the government's position, he should have resigned before making his comments. That would have been the ethical and principled thing to do.

Edited by turningrite

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3 hours ago, turningrite said:

If he truly disagrees with the government's position, he should have resigned before making his comments. That would have been the ethical and principled thing to do.

There's no doubt distancing yourself from unprincipled unethical governments is the appropriate thing to do.

I'm glad to see a fairly obvious point I make in most threads around here is finally sinking in.

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4 hours ago, eyeball said:

There's no doubt distancing yourself from unprincipled unethical governments is the appropriate thing to do.

I'm glad to see a fairly obvious point I make in most threads around here is finally sinking in.

That's nice. I guess based on your principles, Canada stop doing business with... itself.

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3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

That's nice. I guess based on your principles, Canada stop doing business with... itself.

Bingo.  Self determination by peaceful democratic means under the Clarity Act.  Sayonara, Quebec, F**k Alberta, Ontario Governor General at Queen's Park ftw,

Because in actual fact, Canada doesn't do business with itself now, trade is entirely north south for all intents and purposes, each province trading with the Americans while protectionsist against each other, otherwise known as no national interest exhibit A

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13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

That's nice. I guess based on your principles, Canada stop doing business with... itself.

Sure, Canadians could stop supporting Canada.  Just put on the brakes, don't comply, complain, like throwing sand into the machinery. 

People can also take their money and go somewhere else but people who do that are more likely to leave when Canada threatens to act on principle.

Edited by eyeball

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Japan's ambassador says we ought to be looking to other countries in Asia for trade, especially now that the Trans pacific trade agreement is in place. I'm thinking Taiwan is another area rich for exploration.

The ambassador said there's a lot of unexploited potential in the trading relationship between Canada and Japan — especially now that the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) is in effect for seven of the 11 countries that have ratified the trade deal. Canada and Japan are charter members of the CPTPP.

"From Japan's perspective, Canada is a country of natural resources — uranium, coal, and natural gas and oil," Ishikane said.

"At this very moment, oil and natural gas are not exported to Japan, but also there are many other potential areas. For example, artificial intelligence is quite on the rise."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/its-high-time-canada-shifted-its-asia-focus-away-from-china-japanese-ambassador/ar-BBSKwn9?ocid=spartandhp

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Sure, Canadians could stop supporting Canada.  Just put on the brakes, don't comply, complain, like throwing sand into the machinery. 

People can also take their money and go somewhere else but people who do that are more likely to leave when Canada threatens to act on principle.

That's already the case, with no national interest, the various entrenched interests simply work at cross purposes and grinds the gears.

Hence why it is broken, nothing works, and it never progresses beyond being Puerto Rico North.

Like Puerto Rico, those who aspire for better move to the mainland and try to make it there.

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5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

That's already the case, with no national interest, the various entrenched interests simply work at cross purposes and grinds the gears.

Hence why it is broken, nothing works, and it never progresses beyond being Puerto Rico North.

Like Puerto Rico, those who aspire for better move to the mainland and try to make it there.

Just not true.  The country is flourishing and is in many ways success on steroids. 

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Just not true.  The country is flourishing and is in many ways success on steroids. 

Causation correlation fallacy.  All prosperity in Canada is by way of the Americans, Donald J Trump was of course merely stating the obvious, in that if America cuts Canada off from American corporate welfare, it would be the ruination of the nation.

Canada is a failed state which is simply propped up by the Hegemon, if the Hegemon were not propping it up, Canada would rapidly decend into civil disorder, and Quebec would immediately break ranks, then Ontario right after, because it would be a race to get the best deal from the Americans, and Ontario would lunge at that and away from falied Confederation in a heartbeat. 

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This is in fact exactly what is going to happen and the process has already begun, although it doesn't have to be a violent break, it can all be done in an orderly fashion, peaceful self determination by democratic means under the Clarity Act, Quebec goes first, Ontario right after, everybody else will have to figure their provinces  out once we are gone.

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:18 PM, montgomery said:

We must absolutely not withdraw from our relationship with China! 

Our very best position are regards China is exactly the way Trudeau is handling it. We must very quickly withdraw our trade relations with the US and diversify toward China's markets. If we don't then we will be subjected to more US blackmail that has been going on ever since we became a part of NAFTA. And furthermore, the US is the pariah nation that is totally concerned with more wars of aggression against more small countries. As you can witness with the US's 40 wars of aggression since WW2 alone!

China is a rapidly developing country that has rescued many millions of it's people up out of poverty. China may have not advanced to our Western standard of human rights, but they can't be accused of the wars of aggression the US is guilty of, or the many millions of victims of US wars.

How ridiculous to suggest that we withdraw from trade relations with China as at the same time to trade so heavily with the criminal US aggressor! What on earth could you have been thinking? Could this just be another opportunity to bash on Trudeau?

 China is a totalitarian country and does not believe in any kind of human rights.  Without America there is no freedom.  The freedom we enjoy is because America and the west defended it in the world.  You sound like you are on the wrong side.  America and the west are our allies, not China.

Edited by blackbird

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:18 PM, montgomery said:

We must absolutely not withdraw from our relationship with China! ....

....We must very quickly withdraw our trade relations with the US and diversify toward China's markets.

Nope, we should eschew both for the same reason.  Of course we'll have to stop behaving in similar fashion if we expect to be taken seriously - i.e. selling weapons to dictators and otherwise cutting deals with any where human rights are being compromised. 

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On 1/25/2019 at 2:21 PM, turningrite said:

If he truly disagrees with the government's position, he should have resigned before making his comments. That would have been the ethical and principled thing to do.

I have a feeling this was pressure from the USA in order to extradite the Huawei exec to the USA. McCallum seemed to mention things on how she could fight it.  That could have a positive impact on the relations with China, but made it more difficult with the USA.   And yes this is speculation on my part.

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3 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

I have a feeling this was pressure from the USA in order to extradite the Huawei exec to the USA. McCallum seemed to mention things on how she could fight it.  That could have a positive impact on the relations with China, but made it more difficult with the USA.   And yes this is speculation on my part.

I'm sure there was pressure from the U.S., mainly exerted mainly behind the scenes. The U.S. and China are engaged in a titanic trade and economic struggle, the outcome of which is crucial to the world. I'm a bit skeptical of the legitimacy of the charges against Ms. Meng on grounds of side dealings with Iran. I think it more likely this is a tangential skirmish that's just part of the broader struggle. And we got stuck in the middle. But, if we have to pick sides, do we really have a choice as to which side we support? Our relationship with the U.S. is much more important to us than is our relationship with China. That's just a realistic observation and not a slight to China per se.

McCullum didn't seem to understand the limitations he was under in his role as ambassador. It was his role to promote and defend Canada's interests, as determined by the government of the day, rather than to defend China's interests, whether vis-a-vis the U.S. or Canada. How or why would he have thought otherwise?

I predicted in a post under this topic on Friday that McCallum would not retain his ambassadorship for much longer: "Trudeau says he won't replace McCallum at this point, but the ambassador's credibility has certainly suffered. It seems likely he won't serve in the position for much longer." I don't think any other outcome was possible.  

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The country Justin Trudeau most admires because their basic dictatorship can get things done has just sentenced a human rights lawyer who they disappeared several years ago, to another 4 and a half years in prison for 'subversion'. The trial was conducted behind closed doors, and of course, its decision was made before it began.

This is the country the Liberals were considering an extradition treaty with.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-47024825

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On 1/26/2019 at 6:59 PM, Dougie93 said:

Causation correlation fallacy.  All prosperity in Canada is by way of the Americans, Donald J Trump was of course merely stating the obvious, in that if America cuts Canada off from American corporate welfare, it would be the ruination of the nation.

Canada is a failed state which is simply propped up by the Hegemon, if the Hegemon were not propping it up, Canada would rapidly decend into civil disorder, and Quebec would immediately break ranks, then Ontario right after, because it would be a race to get the best deal from the Americans, and Ontario would lunge at that and away from falied Confederation in a heartbeat. 

That’s absurd.  Canada’s institutions are as old as England’s.  Australia has managed fine.  It would be a major readjustment but not insurmountable.  It would be stupid and inconvenient for both countries to stop trading.  For what?   You suffer from slave morality, the mindset that says, “My master is powerful and can destroy me and therefore I should bow and admire his glory.”   No you should not. Call out the problems as you see them and negotiate your wishes based on political realities, but don’t give credit or admiration where it isn’t due, whether that be for Canada, America, or anywhere else. 

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Canada is simply a Domestic Self Governing Federation of the British Empire, you have fabricated "Canada" to be something which is not, Canada does not actually meet the definition of a Westphalian Nation State, and is also a total failure as a Confederation, as it has not fulfilled one stated purpose of, in fact the opposite is the case by every term, to include Confederation itself, as Quebec has de facto already left and is just taking bribes from Ottawa right now in return for not formally announcing independence.

Australia is not a failed state, but Australia is a Commonwealth not a Confederation, there's no such thing as Australian Quebec.

Edited by Dougie93

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On 1/27/2019 at 11:30 AM, GostHacked said:

I have a feeling this was pressure from the USA in order to extradite the Huawei exec to the USA. McCallum seemed to mention things on how she could fight it.  That could have a positive impact on the relations with China, but made it more difficult with the USA.   And yes this is speculation on my part.

Good speculation. It's my speculation as well!

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5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s absurd.  Canada’s institutions are as old as England’s.  Australia has managed fine.  It would be a major readjustment but not insurmountable.  It would be stupid and inconvenient for both countries to stop trading.  For what?   You suffer from slave morality, the mindset that says, “My master is powerful and can destroy me and therefore I should bow and admire his glory.”   No you should not. Call out the problems as you see them and negotiate your wishes based on political realities, but don’t give credit or admiration where it isn’t due, whether that be for Canada, America, or anywhere else. 

America has plenty of admirable qualities, if Dougie failed to give America dap for those qualities, then that would be calling it as he doesn't see it. Dougie is calling out problems as he see's them, you're just mad that he points out too many of Canada's flaws and points out too many of America's strengths for your knee-jerk anti-American sentiment to handle.

You may not see America's admirable qualities, and lots of Canadian Eskimo Communists clearly don't, but that doesn't mean everyone else is as blind as y'all are.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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Most admiral quality being the Declaration of Independence.  

The associated constitution is the best in play right now, but the Declaration of Independence, otherwise known as The Shot Heard Round The World, was the species altering event.  

When it went on to force Cornwallis to capitulate at Yorktown, the American revolutionaries called it; The Miracle.   So they were aware at the time.

Edited by Dougie93

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23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Most admiral quality being the Declaration of Independence.  

The associated constitution is the best in play right now, but the Declaration of Independence, otherwise known as The Shot Heard Round The World, was the species altering event.  

When it went on to force Cornwallis to capitulate at Yorktown, the American revolutionaries called it; The Miracle.   So they were aware at the time.

When the British were on top of the world, and had basically just finished whooping up on the French in North America, America pulling that off was essentially considered impossible, until a ragtag group of Revolutionary Americans proved it wasn't. The Miracle and The Shot Heard Round The World, are labels that don't even do it justice, really.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

When the British were on top of the world, and had basically just finished whooping up on the French in North America, America pulling that off was essentially considered impossible, until a ragtag group of Revolutionary Americans proved it wasn't. The Miracle and The Shot Heard Round The World, are labels that don't even do it justice, really.

Tru, operationally it would be like Canada now beating the Americans in a war, with the help of Russia.  

But that was not actually the species altering aspect.  The species altering event was a revolution in the name of property rights for their own sake. 

Those property rights are the source of the American Hegenomy and all of its other species altering events, thermonuclear world peace, interplanetary exploration, global information age, etc

Edited by Dougie93

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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Tru, operationally it would be like Canada now beating the Americans in a war, with the help of Russia.  

But that was not actually the species altering aspect.  The species altering event was a revolution in the name of property rights for their own sake. 

Those property rights are the source of the American Hegenomy and all of it's other species altering events, thermonuclear world peace, interplanetary exploration, global information age, etc

The American Revolution went so well, that people all over the world wanted to try it for themselves, but what they found out was, rebelling against Monarchs is nowhere near as easy as America made it seem, and no one managed to replicate their success on the same level, not even close. France knows.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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