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Should Canada suspend relations with China?

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

I'm all for national security, but red scare scapegoating has little to do with it.

Canada is not responsible for its own natsec anyways, even the Communications Security Establishment is just a creature of the NSA, it's not like CSE is free to conduct its own operations independent of Fort Meade, and other than CSE, Canada doesn't really have any effective national security arms. CSIS not really being an MI5 and the Mounties not really being a Special Branch.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada is not responsible for its own natsec anyways, even the Communications Security Establishment is just a creature of the NSA, it's not like CSE is free to conduct its own operations independent of Fort Meade, and other than CSE, Canada doesn't really have any effective national security arms. CSIS not really being an MI5 and the Mounties not really being a Special Branch.

 

Yeah America has got us covered, they've got a failed state zombie confederation on their northern border to prop up after all.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Yeah America has got us covered

But not by way of Canadian Confederation tho, Elizabeth Windsor defends the right, UKUSSA defends Elizabeth Windsor, we defend and uphold that which defends our Queen, since round about when that climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc for us, in our darkest hour.

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

But not by way of Canadian Confederation tho, Elizabeth Windsor defends the right, UKUSSA defends Elizabeth Windsor, we defend and uphold that which defends our Queen, since round about when that climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc for us, in our darkest hour.

GSTQ, Thanks for the solid UKUSSA.

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2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada is not a small nation for GDP or geographic size.    Trade diversification should be a priority.   The USA and China are #1 trading partners, despite many conflicts.

I know.  The US has fallen into the trap of importing more goods from China than any other country.  At least you still have Canada, which buys more of your goods than any other country. 

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8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I know.  The US has fallen into the trap of importing more goods from China than any other country.  At least you still have Canada, which buys more of your goods than any other country. 

 

But Canada represents only 19% of U.S. exports, followed closely by Mexico (16%).   China has a much larger upside than "small" Canada.   Canada is far more dependent on exports than either China or the United States.

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But Canada represents only 19% of U.S. exports, followed closely by Mexico (16%).   China has a much larger upside than "small" Canada.   Canada is far more dependent on exports than either China or the United States.

Well the US has to maintain its middle class to maintain a market for its goods.  China is trying to build a middle class market for its own goods and is still heavily dependent on exports.  China is a potential market for North American goods, but right now that market is fairly closed.  Banging the drum of human rights is important because it represents bringing China into the modern western democratic era of rule of law and standards for labour, the environment, and so on. Trump is trying to use the protectionist tariff stick to make China come across.  It’s getting mixed results because Trump has made it clear that human rights are secondary to him than economics.  That’s a green light for China to continue to break rules, to say one thing and do another.  You need a president who is beyond reproach, exemplary in multiple ways.  Only then can there be real conversations, because China doesn’t trust the US right now.  Canada is trying to be true to its ally, the US, by honouring a treaty.  The Justice Department claims to have concrete evidence of Huawei’s fraudulence and other charges.  Let the evidence go before the court.  Canada is far from perfect in its application of policy, but I’m sure our leaders are having a hard time trusting either country.  Given a choice, it will almost always be the US.  They don’t detain Canadians for dubious reasons or retry people to add a death penalty.  More exchanges I’m sure will happen with China and other countries like it eventually, but certain things have to change.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well the US has to maintain its middle class to maintain a market for its goods.  China is trying to build a middle class market for its own goods and is still heavily dependent on exports. 

 

But by objective measure(s), Canada is even more dependent on exports.

 

Quote

China is a potential market for North American goods, but right now that market is fairly closed.  Banging the drum of human rights is important because it represents bringing China into the modern western democratic era of rule of law and standards for labour, the environment, and so on. Trump is trying to use the protectionist tariff stick to make China come across.  It’s getting mixed results because Trump has made it clear that human rights are secondary to him than economics.  That’s a green light for China to continue to break rules, to say one thing and do another. 

 

Such virtue signaling is far more important to the present Canadian government.   Trump is going after the trade imbalance, IP theft, dumping, etc.  With Trudeau, Canada is seen as the "weakest link".

 

Quote

You need a president who is beyond reproach, exemplary in multiple ways.  Only then can there be real conversations, because China doesn’t trust the US right now.  Canada is trying to be true to its ally, the US, by honouring a treaty.  The Justice Department claims to have concrete evidence of Huawei’s fraudulence and other charges.  Let the evidence go before the court. 

 

The U.S. has detained, imprisoned, and executed more Canadians than China.   Weng is being extradited for charges stemming from the Obama administrations sanctions, not Trump.

Quote

Canada is far from perfect in its application of policy, but I’m sure our leaders are having a hard time trusting either country.  Given a choice, it will almost always be the US.  They don’t detain Canadians for dubious reasons or retry people to add a death penalty.  More exchanges I’m sure will happen with China and other countries like it eventually, but certain things have to change.  

 

Or not.   The Canadian meth smuggler opened the door for China by appealing his 15 year sentence.

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12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But Canada represents only 19% of U.S. exports, followed closely by Mexico (16%).   China has a much larger upside than "small" Canada.   Canada is far more dependent on exports than either China or the United States.

Upside for what???   Canada has a culture very much in synch with the US, as well as consumerism with a taste and budget for the same things.  Those needs and wants are being supplied by China, since the US long ago considered itself too important to bother with trivial consumer goods, then industrial goods and now high tech, defence and just about every other goods and service.   China simply has no appetite for American (or Canadian) manufactured goods, as they can add the same value to resources far more competitively than we in North America can.  China is a resource customer, and the US doesn't have very much in the line of resources to export any more.   Canada does.  Canada is also one of the few markets for made-in-USA consumer goods (what little of that is left).

I generally dislike having to use analogies, but in this case, there is a good one.  Going back 30+ years, the USA was the absolute center of the general aviation universe.  Virtually all genav and most of commercial aviation design, suppliers, etc. were in the US.  BUT: since it allowed the LLL (Legal Liability Lottery) to become a major factor in business, insurance costs from ravaging hoards of ambulance chasers resulted in total collapse of the light end of genav, and manufacture of almost all light singles and twins came to an abrupt halt in the late '70s.  Today, Eastern Europe certifies more light planes every month than the US does in something like three or four years.  Chinese now own much of the technology by simply buying the business (Continental being a prime example in USA, Diamond in Canada), milking the technology, and will eventually simply shift all production to China to satisfy that big emerging market that you so much desire.  BTW: that infrastructure exists in China since Shanghai has hosted a significant community of subcontractors building major components and subassemblies for business and commercial aviation for decades - as usual - host the production, skim the technology - SOP for China.   

Don't even get me started on how they did this with GM!

Sadly, outside of President Trump, nobody else in the US seems to understand this - nor has the balls to stand up to China and deal with it.  We are simply not in a position to do that - as our real business with them is to provide resources that we have coming out of our arse.

Edited by cannuck

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13 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Yeah America has got us covered, they've got a failed state zombie confederation on their northern border to prop up after all.

Canada has little to no zombies.. They don't do well in the cold.

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12 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Upside for what???   Canada has a culture very much in synch with the US, as well as consumerism with a taste and budget for the same things.  Those needs and wants are being supplied by China, since the US long ago considered itself too important to bother with trivial consumer goods, then industrial goods and now high tech, defence and just about every other goods and service. 

 

China's growing consumer and industrial base have a much larger upside than Canada's.   Team Trump actually begins trade negotiations today for larger U.S. exports (e.g. soybeans, autos, aircraft, etc.)   China is now GM's biggest market.

 

Quote

 China simply has no appetite for American (or Canadian) manufactured goods, as they can add the same value to resources far more competitively than we in North America can.  China is a resource customer, and the US doesn't have very much in the line of resources to export any more.   Canada does.

 

China has been buying Boeing aircraft for many years, and plans to spend billions on many more.   The U.S. can get oil/gas resources to China far easier than Canada.

chartoftheday_13418_major_exports_from_t

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BC:

Note that the vast majority of what the US sells to China is NOT finished consumer goods (with value already added) but resources or components that will often be sold back to the US (and other markets) as finished consumer goods.

Your point about oil and gas is sadly of course accurate.  BUT: since we have such a large and easy market to the South and PC blocked access to tidewater on the Chinese side, our O&G exports don't (yet) go there.

Yes, Boeing doing fairly well with China right now, but you would be surprised how much is coming out of Shanghai already.  Ultimately, someone in China will make their majority owned Buick...oh, sorry, I meant BOEING that looks strangely similar to the one no longer sold by USA. 

NEVER forget that the 100% strategy of all Chinese business is to be predatory and absolutely victorious/dominant.  They are waging WWIII without having to fire a shot, and we are only to glad to provide them with all of the ammunition they DO use.

Edited by cannuck

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1 minute ago, cannuck said:

Note that the vast majority of what the US sells to China is NOT finished consumer goods (with value already added) but resources or components that will often be sold back to the US (and other markets) as finished consumer goods.

 

This is by design....years ago, Microsoft made more on each Windows license than IBM > Lenovo made on a PC or laptop.    BMW exports SUVs made in the USA to China.

 

Quote

Your point about oil and gas is sadly of course accurate.  BUT: since we have such a large and easy market to the South and PC blocked access to tidewater on the Chinese side, our O&G exports don't (yet) go there.

 

That's Canada's problem...figure it out.   U.S. oil and gas exports to China are the fastest growing segment of trade.

 

Quote

Yes, Boeing doing fairly well with China right now, but you would be surprised how much is coming out of Shanghai already.  Ultimately, someone in China will make their majority owned Buick...oh, sorry, I meant BOEING that looks strangely similar to the one no longer sold by USA.

 

Boeing makes even more money transferring manufacturing tech to China in its global battle with Airbus....witness the COMEC C919.   

 

Quote

NEVER forget that the 100% strategy of all Chinese business is to be predatory and absolutely victorious/dominant.  They are waging WWIII without having to fire a shot, and we are only to glad to provide them with all of the ammunition they DO use.

 

NEVER forget that in the age of globalization, you either engage China...or you lose.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is by design....years ago, Microsoft made more on each Windows license than IBM > Lenovo made on a PC or laptop.    BMW exports SUVs made in the USA to China.

This only happens because it is still a badge of one-upmanship to buy a luxo-brand that was imported - since everyone knows you paid a huge premium (much of it was tax, not sure the level today) to drive a BMTrouble-you that nobody there can fix.  It is co-incidentally made here because this is where the whole SUV thing is over the top.

 

That's Canada's problem...figure it out.   U.S. oil and gas exports to China are the fastest growing segment of trade.

Not for the reasons you think.  It is Trump playing hard ball with Iran that is shifting supply lines more than anything else.  Also, Russia is a HUGE player, but China (once again because Trump is on the job) is becoming more aware of which hand out there feeds them the most.
 

NEVER forget that in the age of globalization, you either engage China...or you lose.

Yes, one must engage, but it is going to be about the same results as when any other cow is engaged by the bull.

 

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2 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Not for the reasons you think.  It is Trump playing hard ball with Iran that is shifting supply lines more than anything else.  Also, Russia is a HUGE player, but China (once again because Trump is on the job) is becoming more aware of which hand out there feeds them the most.

 

Sorry, but the world is not going to stop while Canada tries to figure out oil pipelines, refineries, LNG terminals, and carbon taxes.   Nobody in Russia, China, or the USA will feel sorry for Canada.   Compete...or be left behind.

 

 

Quote

Yes, one must engage, but it is going to be about the same results as when any other cow is engaged by the bull.

 

Deal with China and make some money, or pout and stay out of the game for "principles".    Trump has engaged China like a bull...Canada has not / cannot.

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sorry, but the world is not going to stop while Canada tries to figure out oil pipelines, refineries, LNG terminals, and carbon taxes.   Nobody in Russia, China, or the USA will feel sorry for Canada.   Compete...or be left behind.

 

 

 

Deal with China and make some money, or pout and stay out of the game for "principles".    Trump has engaged China like a bull...Canada has not / cannot.

I agree fully.  I only wish the spineless half-wits on the Hill had at least your grasp of the situation.

I have worked in and with China since the mid '90s.   Even that far back, I was trying to tell everyone that the light at the end of that tunnel is an Allegheny compound about to flatten anyone and anything in its way.  That has not yet changed, and in the meantime, our little band of survivor mice will simply try to figure out how to feed peanuts to the elephant in the corner of our room.

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1 minute ago, cannuck said:

I agree fully.  I only wish the spineless half-wits on the Hill had at least your grasp of the situation.

I have worked in and with China since the mid '90s.   Even that far back, I was trying to tell everyone that the light at the end of that tunnel is an Allegheny compound about to flatten anyone and anything in its way.  That has not yet changed, and in the meantime, our little band of survivor mice will simply try to figure out how to feed peanuts to the elephant in the corner of our room.

 

Well, if you recall, it was Canada/Pierre Trudeau that forged a path to China in the early 1970's.    Something about "constructive engagement".

I did the China thing back in 1997 for automotive flex circuits and interstitial materials like copper on Kapton (polyimide) film.   They were hungry for Yankee technology and were willing to learn how to steal it.   No politics involved.    Hard workers too.   Twenty years later, China is now the largest automotive market in the world.

One could argue that none of the present circumstances are Canada's fault, but one cannot argue that Canada is well served by the present PM/Foreign Minister and their agenda.

Instead of one elephant to deal with, Canada now has two.

 

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14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

One could argue that none of the present circumstances are Canada's fault, but one cannot argue that Canada is well served by the present PM/Foreign Minister and their agenda.

 

Are you saying that the Chinese aren't particularly impressed by vacuous posturing? Go figure.

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10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, if you recall, it was Canada/Pierre Trudeau that forged a path to China in the early 1970's.    Something about "constructive engagement".

I did the China thing back in 1997 for automotive flex circuits and interstitial materials like copper on Kapton (polyimide) film.   They were hungry for Yankee technology and were willing to learn how to steal it.   No politics involved.    Hard workers too.   Twenty years later, China is now the largest automotive market in the world.

I have been out of the car business for about 30 years, but once a car guy, always a car guy.  It is important to appreciate that since WWII, there are only two things you had to do to make your country wealthy:  sell cars to the Americans and let Americans pay your defense costs.   This has worked very well for Canada, Germany, Japan and South Korea.  To really appreciate global economics, trade and some of geopolitics, you had to understand the car business.  But China is a very different situation.  It was the catch-up to the rest for 1/4 of the entire world kept out of pretty much everything for nearly a century.  What we forget is that for the previous 4 millenia, China was THE largest economy and influence in the Eastern hemisphere.   I can recall reading in trade media about how the Chinese car market could be the size of the US one, first a half century in the future, then a quarter and so on.   Most simply laughed in total disbelief - except those of us who were actually on the ground inside of China.  While Tricky Dickey was playing ping pong, Germany was busy making inroads that would result in them being the initiators of the real auto industry in China (and MANY other industrial sectors).   Well, here we are not yet at 2020 and already China is the largest auto market in the world starting at zero less than 30 years ago.  AND the second largest economy (and largest in terms of productivity when you factor out measures of purely speculative gains).

50 years ago as a neophyte in business and politics, I could scarcely imagine there would be a time I would stand in Red Square or Tiananmen Square, never mind have to defer to their leadership in matters of trade!

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China has less trust in the US than in Canada right now because it sees the way games are played.  It never had such challenges with Canada until this US extradition challenge, and look at the results: China mistreating Canada big time.  Canada should focus as much trade as possible away from these trouble makers.  

Question to BC: How are publicly traded GM’s sales in China benefiting the American workers and public?   That’s the heart of the matter.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

China has less trust in the US than in Canada right now because it sees the way games are played.  It never had such challenges with Canada until this US extradition challenge, and look at the results: China mistreating Canada big time.  Canada should focus as much trade as possible away from these trouble makers.  

I can agree with your emotions, but not your logic.  There are only three big games on the planet:   US, China and EEC.  For us to cut trade ties with any of them would be suicide.   Attempt to diversify, yes, but until you see what it takes to sell product into a TUV standard (which is intentionally very protectionist) you have no idea what it means for someone outside of the EEC to sell manufactured goods into that market.   We have to first BECOME an actual manufacturing economy (we only fit that mold when it comes to automotive parts and sub assemblies today) before we try to play in that ballpark.  For China, it is fairly easy to DO, but almost totally impossible to do competitively (if you want to see protectionism, look at China) IF we had anything to sell outside of resources - and we don't.  For us to do business in the US is extremely easy because we share so many standards, language, culture and complete understanding of the regulatory, tax, import and trade legal environment.

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

China has less trust in the US than in Canada right now because it sees the way games are played.  It never had such challenges with Canada until this US extradition challenge, and look at the results: China mistreating Canada big time.  Canada should focus as much trade as possible away from these trouble makers.  

 

I suspect China respects Trump and the U.S. and not Canada. As the Meng affair has evolved, several MSM outlets have pointed out that China has little respect for Canada or little potato's regime, as indicated in the G&M article linked below. Trudeau's obsequious overtures to the Chinese have met mainly with indifference. After he was basically ignored by the upper echelons in the "basic dictatorship" he so admires when visiting China to try to drum up support for a free (i.e. corporate) trade deal, the Chinese shortly thereafter accorded Macron of France a welcome fit for royalty. And I suspect Xi would take a phone call from Trump in a heartbeat. But from Trudeau? Hmmm.... Wishful thinking does nothing to dispel unpleasant realities.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-china-smells-weakness-so-its-picking-on-canada/

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50 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I suspect China respects Trump and the U.S. and not Canada. As the Meng affair has evolved, several MSM outlets have pointed out that China has little respect for Canada or little potato's regime, as indicated in the G&M article linked below. Trudeau's obsequious overtures to the Chinese have met mainly with indifference. After he was basically ignored by the upper echelons in the "basic dictatorship" he so admires when visiting China to try to drum up support for a free (i.e. corporate) trade deal, the Chinese shortly thereafter accorded Macron of France a welcome fit for royalty. And I suspect Xi would take a phone call from Trump in a heartbeat. But from Trudeau? Hmmm.... Wishful thinking does nothing to dispel unpleasant realities.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-china-smells-weakness-so-its-picking-on-canada/

I think that’s a miscalculation on China’s part because under Trudeau China had a way in.   They’re playing this worse than Canada, which has been forced into this awkward situation by the US.  Trudeau has to go for sure.  Our next PM probably has to be negative on China, as it’s clear that country still respects and adheres to fear more than constructive dialogue.  It’s a shame because I find all of this national protectionism counter-productive.  Good international rules would open up trade and better relations with all countries, but our “leader of the free world” to the south is playing the zero-sum Mercantile game, trying to counter China’s unfair game.  I understand the reasoning but it’s a short-sighted game.  Human development will happen to the fullest through the free exchange of goods, services and ideas.  That dream is clearly postponed. 

Edited by Zeitgeist

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:00 PM, montgomery said:

Cuba, North Korea, and China have one thing in common and it is that all 3 are intended targets of US aggression. None are guilty of the 40 US wars of aggression that can be pinned on the US And they are also peaceful communist regimes. 

Trump is a psychopath and should be taken down as quickly as possible before he gets an opportunity to start WW3.

Communism is no longer the enemy to fear, if in fact it every was? The Russians aren't coming and they never really were. The US is laying plunder to the small countries of the world and is the evil aggressor. Canada needs to move away from that sort of evil behaviour as quickly as possible.

Scheer is best described as a Nazi in scheep's clothing. If he ever is forced to reveal the true Con agenda, Canadians would be horrified. 

Trump is pretending to pull troops out of Syria but the US never follows through on promises of troop reductions in aggregrate. US troops will be moved from one victim country to another. Have you any idea at all of how many troops the US has in foreign countries throughout the world, and just how many countries it occupies? 

You at least seem to be getting it right with the suggestion of Canada not needing a military. 

And why should communist countries like China not be on the hit list? They are regimes of tyranny that treat their citizen's like slaves and deny them their right to be free. That is just as bad as America starting a war somewhere. American aggression and communism have not done one thing to make the world a safer and free place to live.

The wars of US aggression were all done by the globalist international elite cabal warmongers who have been running America since the Vietnam war. It's not Trump that started all those past wars. Maybe those communist countries like China are not aggressors as of yet but China sure has shown the rest of the free world as to why the rest of the world does not need a communist government around like China. 

Trump is not the psychopath here. It is the people that he keeps listening too like those globalist international elite cabal warmongers. It's hard for any leader to be able to get things done right when you surround yourself by traitors who want to get you to do everything wrong. So far Trump as not got America into any new wars. But the traitorous elite keep trying. 

Scheer is best described as just another liberal and the leader of another liberal party. The man lacks conservative bal-s. Trudeau has said that he admired China. So we have tweedle dee and tweddle dumb who both think that China is a wonderful country even though they both know that China is in the spy business like other countries in the world. Canada stopped dealing in trade with South Africa over apartheid so why doesn't Canada call for sanctions and trade embargoes against a dictatorship communist regime like China? Why? Because one could say that Canada is well on it's way to becoming a communist country as freedom of speech is always under attack in Canada. The hate laws of Canada tells me that. 

Trump is going by his advisers as to what to do about Syria and his advisers keep telling him that he needs to stay in Syria. Of course his advisers take their orders from the globalist elite warmongers in Washington who make millions from the profit of war. Trump is not the enemy here. Trump does not believe in getting involved in foreign wars. China is an enemy of America but fools out there are brainwashed into believing that Trump is the problem. China is involved in many countries and their affairs. That is why Canada should suspend relations with China.  

Darn right Canada does not need a military. Instead what Canada needs is something more along the lines of a national guard that are needed today at our Border with America to stop all the criminal illegals from entering our country illegally. Don't let them in, keep them out. Even if we have to push them back into America. I sure wish that Canada had more politicians with ba-ls rather than having politicians who are full of emotion. Emotion is what is going to kill off Canada as we know it today if nothing is done about our present day immigration policy. I am pretty sure that China does not just sit idly by and watch thousands of illegals just walk right on into their country like Canada allows everyday. Disgusting. 

Edited by taxme

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We've heard a lot of noise from the Conservatives that Trudeau is botching up our relations with China but I think its quite safe to say Conservatives are simply displeased that Canada isn't sinking to the morality of our planet's dominant powers fast or deep enough for their liking.  I get the same sense when listening to right-wing criticism of Trudeau's apparent concern with regards to arms sales to Saudi Arabia.

As for the Liberals I think its also safe to say that other than the odd signal they transmit they have as little use for acting virtuously as anyone.  So they're not quite as overt and maybe a little more reluctant - let not your hearts be troubled, economics and bowing to Canada's betters will prevail.

Edited by eyeball

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