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Should Canada suspend relations with China?


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7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

We've heard a lot of noise from the Conservatives that Trudeau is botching up our relations with China but I think its quite safe to say Conservatives are simply displeased that Canada isn't sinking to the morality of our planet's dominant powers fast or deep enough for their liking.  I get the same sense when listening to right-wing criticism of Trudeau's apparent concern with regards to arms sales to Saudi Arabia.

As for the Liberals I think its also safe to say that other than the odd signal they transmit they have as little use for acting virtuously as anyone.  So they're not quite as overt and maybe a little more reluctant - let not your hearts be troubled, economics and bowing to Canada's betters will prevail.

"Let not your hearts be troubled". You must have picked up that saying from watching Hannity on FOX News who says those words every night at the end of his show. Good job. :D

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The country Justin Trudeau most admires because their basic dictatorship can get things done has just sentenced a human rights lawyer who they disappeared several years ago, to another 4 and a half ye

Purposefully misrepresenting my statement is nothing but trolling.

Should we suspend relations? I mean, it would be their loss, since they're exporting way more to us than the other way around. 

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

From the article

Quote

Make no mistake: China is targeting Canada, and not the United States, because they see us as both weak and anxious for closer economic ties, an image reinforced by Ottawa’s previously fawning words for China.

I wonder how much Conservatives screeching bloody blue murder for a pipeline pointing at China has to do with contributing to our economic desperation?  Maybe its their oft-repeated sentiment that we might as sell our oil to China because if we don't someone else will. 

Not a shred of virtue or principle in sight, just the way our customers like.  Heck we'll probably even negotiate a penalty against us in case we develop a moral qualm or ethical cold foot somewhere down the road. 

Edited by eyeball
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6 minutes ago, taxme said:

"Let not your hearts be troubled". You must have picked up that saying from watching Hannity on FOX News who says those words every night at the end of his show. Good job. :D

That's John 14:1

Jesus says to the disciples "Let not your hearts be troubled, Trust in God, and trust also in me"

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6 minutes ago, taxme said:

"Let not your hearts be troubled". You must have picked up that saying from watching Hannity on FOX News who says those words every night at the end of his show. Good job. :D

Yeah but he always leaves out any reference to economics trumping virtue so...he's just as flakey as Trudeau when it comes to avoiding principles.

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

That's John 14:1

Jesus says to the disciples "Let not your hearts be troubled, Trust in God, and trust also in me"

Jesus also kicked over the money changer's tables and was promptly crucified. The moral of the story? You got it.

Economics is to virtue as Godzilla is to Bambi.

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Jesus also kicked over the money changer's tables and was promptly crucified. The moral of the story? You got it.

Economics is to virtue as Godzilla is to Bambi.

Economics is a religion unto itself, by low sell high, everything else is scripture written by clerics.

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26 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

That's John 14:1

Jesus says to the disciples "Let not your hearts be troubled, Trust in God, and trust also in me"

The world has become a place of total bull chit and lies and there is not too much one can believe in anymore by anything being said by our dear leaders and those so called experts of today. Jesus apparently took one for we  the sheeple but the money changers took care of that when they had Jesus crucified. The money changers are still alive and well in the world and are pretty much still crucifying anyone who speaks like Jesus did today. The I love money people are the spreaders of lies and deceit. All they think about is money and power.

The problem for we the sheeple is that we have no Jesus like leaders in the world anymore. Just more money changing devils running and ruining the world as they have always been doing long before Jesus arrived on the scene. I believe that Trump is the Jesus of today and that is why he is attacked and mocked so much every day by the present day money changer communists of the world and their control of the leftist liberal media and they will not stop until they can crucify Trump once and for all. If they can crucify Trump then we can all kiss our asses goodbye. Satan will have won and we the sheeple are doomed to a life of misery and communist hell. Hey, you never know. :(

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39 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah but he always leaves out any reference to economics trumping virtue so...he's just as flakey as Trudeau when it comes to avoiding principles.

It's a tough world for anyone who wants to get the truth out there. Tucker, Gutfeld, Pirro and Watters are four of my favorites to watch on FOX News. Those four pull no punches. They do tell it like it is something we the people are not use to hearing. Someone in the media actually telling us as to what i going on. 

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Lighten up, Francis.

Money and power is fun and profitable.  You can't take it with you but there's no mandate to be a pauper if you are a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

The only thing Joshua bar Josef was angry about, was usury.

I love money too, Who doesn't. I am not shy to say that I will take all that I can get my grubby hands on. Lol. And just for you information, this white Anglo Saxon Protestant will be taking his money with him. I may need my money in the next life if there is one. Just going to play safe.  :lol:

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1 minute ago, taxme said:

I love money too, Who doesn't. I am not shy to say that I will take all that I can get my grubby hands on. Lol. And just for you information, this white Anglo Saxon Protestant will be taking his money with him. I may need my money in the next life if there is one. Just going to play safe.  :lol:

Jesus was a businessman, fisherman by trade, all Jesus said is take care of the poor and don't rip people off.

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7 minutes ago, taxme said:

It's a tough world for anyone who wants to get the truth out there. Tucker, Gutfeld, Pirro and Watters are four of my favorites to watch on FOX News. Those four pull no punches. They do tell it like it is something we the people are not use to hearing. Someone in the media actually telling us as to what i going on. 

Every last one of them is a fricken' loon preaching to fricken' loons.

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5 hours ago, cannuck said:

I can agree with your emotions, but not your logic.  There are only three big games on the planet:   US, China and EEC.  For us to cut trade ties with any of them would be suicide.   Attempt to diversify, yes, but until you see what it takes to sell product into a TUV standard (which is intentionally very protectionist) you have no idea what it means for someone outside of the EEC to sell manufactured goods into that market.   We have to first BECOME an actual manufacturing economy (we only fit that mold when it comes to automotive parts and sub assemblies today) before we try to play in that ballpark.  For China, it is fairly easy to DO, but almost totally impossible to do competitively (if you want to see protectionism, look at China)

China is never going to buy anything they can build. If it can't yet build it, it will insist that whatever company sells there build it there, then skim off the technology, send it to it's own companies, and then start building it itself while shutting out the foreigners. More, it will then start selling that product, a near duplicate, in the foreign company's market, competing against it, and will do it cheaper because of low labour costs. In 25 years will the majority of the world's passenger aircraft be coming from Boeing or some Chinese company?

To say China is a big market or a potential market is nonsense. It's only a market for corporations which want to build there and, for the most part, keep their money there, because if they send it home China freezes them out. It's a market for raw resources, sure. But they're just part of the world market. Much like oil, if world demand is X and world supply is Y, then Y finds a buyer somewhere at the world price. It doesn't have to be China.

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7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Question to BC: How are publicly traded GM’s sales in China benefiting the American workers and public?   That’s the heart of the matter.  

 

Helps to keep GM operations viable around the world, including Canada.   American workers are also GM shareholders either directly or indirectly.  

Some Canadians demand that cars sold in Canada must have offsetting auto manufacturing in Canada....so does China.

As for Trump and China, some "short term gains" are welcomed by several auto makers:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/04/17/tesla-gm-volkswagen-china-autos/523374002/

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Helps to keep GM operations viable around the world, including Canada.   American workers are also GM shareholders either directly or indirectly.  

Some Canadians demand that cars sold in Canada must have offsetting auto manufacturing in Canada....so does China.

As for Trump and China, some "short term gains" are welcomed by several auto makers:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/04/17/tesla-gm-volkswagen-china-autos/523374002/

 

As long as this opens the Chinese market to exports from North America.  I hope it does.  

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39 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

As long as this opens the Chinese market to exports from North America.  I hope it does.  

 

Oh great....it's "North America" as long as Trump is willing to do the dirty work.   What is Trudeau/Canada doing about the trade imbalance besides his losing "feminist agenda" ?

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11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Oh great....it's "North America" as long as Trump is willing to do the dirty work.   What is Trudeau/Canada doing about the trade imbalance besides his losing "feminist agenda" ?

Trump has fucked up international relations quite enough thanks, with Canada, China and just about everyone else except North Korea, Russia and the Saudis.  It’s a shit show: 5 GM plant closures in North America and billion dollar losses due to steel and aluminum tariffs.  So much to show for all his clever deal making.  

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18 hours ago, Argus said:

1.) China is never going to buy anything they can build. If it can't yet build it, it will insist that whatever company sells there build it there, then skim off the technology, send it to it's own companies, and then start building it itself while shutting out the foreigners.

2.) To say China is a big market or a potential market is nonsense. It's only a market for corporations which want to build there and, for the most part, keep their money there, because if they send it home China freezes them out. It's a market for raw resources, sure. But they're just part of the world market. Much like oil, if world demand is X and world supply is Y, then Y finds a buyer somewhere at the world price. It doesn't have to be China.

1.) You are correct. And this doesn't only pertain just to China I have a friend who taught English in S. Korea a few years ago. When she noted to a group of people she met there that almost no consumer products available there were produced outside of S. Korea or, more broadly, Asia, her acquaintances were puzzled, asking her why they'd import anything they could manufacture on their own. S. Korea has built its prosperous modern economy on a protectionist model as China is now doing. Yet, we haven't paid much attention to the extent of protectionism in some prosperous Asian economies. The difference, of course, is that China is much larger.

2.) Again, you are correct. In fact, the trade deals that feckless leaders like Trudeau promote have little to do with "free trade" or even reciprocal trade. Instead, they're mainly investor protection and "managed" trade pacts.

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58 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trump has fucked up international relations quite enough thanks, with Canada, China and just about everyone else except North Korea, Russia and the Saudis.  It’s a shit show: 5 GM plant closures in North America and billion dollar losses due to steel and aluminum tariffs.  So much to show for all his clever deal making.  

Trump is doing what he was elected to do, that's how elections work, trade war for the industrial workers of the rust belt and rein in international obligations.

 

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12 minutes ago, turningrite said:

2.) Again, you are correct.

Not entirely. China is also a cheap labour force, and is able to produce many goods far more cheaply due to a lack of safety and environmental regulations.  Unlike western nations which must necessarily impose them on our industries, driving up production costs. This is one way they maintain an unfair profit margin over western manufacturing processes and standards. Greedy corporations then exploit this, and we have their products on our shelves.

ETA-

In the USA, the Trump administration has made deregulation a priority. Many regulations imposed during the Obama era have been removed, with the intent to lower costs and ramp up production. Economics is trumps virtue.

Edited by OftenWrong
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China is transitioning into a digital service economy, the idea of China being a low wage ghetto is out of date, most of their lower classes are actually peasants not industrial workers, most of their industrial workers endeavor to advance into the service economy.  China is transitioning through all the stages of the twentieth century, just at fast forward speed.

This is why Hauwei is so important to them, Foxconn is the past Hauwei is the future.

Edited by Dougie93
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2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

China is also a cheap labour force, and is able to produce many goods far more cheaply due to a lack of safety and environmental regulations.  Unlike western nations which must necessarily impose them on our industries, driving up production costs. This is one way they maintain an unfair profit margin over western manufacturing processes and standards. Greedy corporations then exploit this, and we have their products on our shelves.

Did you just wake up one day and decide to start talking like a lefty from 25 years ago?

 

Edited by eyeball
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2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Not entirely. China is also a cheap labour force, and is able to produce many goods far more cheaply due to a lack of safety and environmental regulations.  Unlike western nations which must necessarily impose them on our industries, driving up production costs. This is one way they maintain an unfair profit margin over western manufacturing processes and standards. Greedy corporations then exploit this, and we have their products on our shelves.

 

I think you missed the point made by Argus, to which I was responding. The notion that trade opens up our access to China's massive domestic market is largely a pipe-dream, even if our production costs were lower and our products were cost competitive. China will manufacture for its own market and will only import from abroad what it can't provide itself, including raw materials and agricultural goods. There is also a market for luxury goods, but this is not in general Canada's forte.

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Meanwhile due to Trump's trade war Chinese banks and companies are rapidly expanding their footprint in Mexico, along with the rest of the world, in order to bypass tariffs by offshoring to Mexico, to access the North American market,  to include Canada,  via USMCA.

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