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Should Canada suspend relations with China?


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40 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Protestants had already won, it wasn't to protect them,

Sorry? The 'glorious revolution' was to dethrone Catholic King James to make sure he didn't establish a Catholic dynasty after he had a son.

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it was to bring a peace about between them and the Roman Catholics, because the Protestants being the vanguard of Scottish Enlightenment led classically liberal conservatism, wanted to do business, so they could get rich,  and to do so, needed to have a peaceful transfer of power to end the cycle of violence.

Well it did a piss poor job of it then. Their peaceful transfer of power required an invasion, and was hardly peaceful. And it ushered in centuries of brutal persecution of Catholics.

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The country Justin Trudeau most admires because their basic dictatorship can get things done has just sentenced a human rights lawyer who they disappeared several years ago, to another 4 and a half ye

Purposefully misrepresenting my statement is nothing but trolling.

Should we suspend relations? I mean, it would be their loss, since they're exporting way more to us than the other way around. 

On 1/4/2019 at 3:04 PM, turningrite said:

Given the recent deterioration of our relationship with China, should we not simply withdraw our missions and officials from that country and suspend all other formal relations until the situation is normalized via negotiations?

''''

The Canadian government can close our embassy in Beijing and close our consulates elsewhere in China.

It can order all Chinese government officials to leave Canada.

=====

In 2019, we are well beyond this. Millions of Chinese people live in Canada. Thousands of Canadians live in China. Hundreds of millions of people, Canadians and Chinese, deal daily with one another.

 

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8 minutes ago, Argus said:

Sorry? The 'glorious revolution' was to dethrone Catholic King James to make sure he didn't establish a Catholic dynasty after he had a son.

Well it did a piss poor job of it then. Their peaceful transfer of power required an invasion, and was hardly peaceful. And it ushered in centuries of brutal persecution of Catholics.

Indeed, it wasn't called a revolution for nothing, but it was in fact a rout, being executed by way of printing press and pamphleteering to make a case, and so the Dutch Regent and his co-conspirators seized the Crown nary a shot fired for all intents and purposes, and thus a peaceful transfer of power.  The Dutch Regent then founded the modern Westminster Parliamentary democracy to enshrine peaceful transfer of power for all time.

How it did a piss poor job prior to impaling itself on Belgian Neutrality is not clear, as it became the Global Hegemon and arguably the greatest of the them all, until the Americans species altering heights at the Sea of Tranquility on the Moon surpassed it.

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4 hours ago, August1991 said:

The Canadian government can close our embassy in Beijing and close our consulates elsewhere in China.

It can order all Chinese government officials to leave Canada.

=====

In 2019, we are well beyond this. Millions of Chinese people live in Canada. Thousands of Canadians live in China. Hundreds of millions of people, Canadians and Chinese, deal daily with one another.

 

And, your point is? Canada and other Western countries routinely pull their diplomatic contingents, including ambassadors, from other countries when diplomatic disputes emerge. Canada did so with Russia following Russia's takeover of Crimea although there are 500 thousand Canadian citizens and/or residents of full or partial Russian ancestry, thousands of whom are Russian-born immigrants to Canada. In 2012 Canada completely broke off diplomatic relations with Iran despite the fact that over 200 thousand Canadians are of Iranian ancestry, many of whom were born in Iran.

I'm not sure what makes China different? I think that right now one would have to tell Canadians who live there, many of whom are potentially former Chinese citizens as China doesn't recognize dual citizenship and in many cases forces such people to forfeit their Chinese citizenship when they are naturalized abroad, that they do so at their own risk despite the fact that we maintain formal diplomatic relations with China. The U.S. is warning its citizens of the dangers of traveling to and presumably remaining in China in view the risk of arbitrary detention. Despite Trudeau's starry-eyed view of China and the "basic dictatorship" he admires (an odd penchant for a Western leader), China is not a country governed by what anybody in the West would normally consider the rule of law.

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau has much better relations with China than Trump has.  I'll grant the Liberals that. 

lol. Because Canada is a powerless lick spittle sycophant to them while Trump is pushing them around.

The whole thing was brilliantly executed by the Americans, whapped Xi over the head and Trudeau at the same time.

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Just now, Dougie93 said:

lol. Because Canada is a powerless lick spittle sycophant to them while Trump is pushing them around.

The whole thing was brilliantly executed by the Americans, whapped Xi over the head and Trudeau at the same time.

Please, Trump has to get his head out of the Saudi prince's ass and his feet out of Putin's ass.  He was dramatically obsequious when Xi visited the US.  Trudeau has admired China for years.  Harper had short shrift for China.

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Please, Trump has to get his head out of the Saudi prince's ass and his feet out of Putin's ass.  He was dramatically obsequious when Xi visited the US.  Trudeau has admired China for years.  Harper had short shrift for China.

The Trump administration just kicked China where it hurts, which is having a Chinese Communist Party elite arrested on Western soil, but they deliberately bypassed the Liberals and didn't tell them it was going to go down, now the Liberals are the one caught in the crossfire, which was very deliberate on the Americans part, meanwhile as China kidnaps Canadians off the street and throws them in extra-judicial black hole sleep deprivation dungeons, they haven't done anything to upset the Americans at all

lol

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4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Trump administration just kicked China where it hurts, which is having a Chinese Communist Party elite arrested on Western soil, but they deliberately bypassed the Liberals and didn't tell them it was going to go down, now the Liberals are the one caught in the crossfire, which was very deliberate on the Americans part, meanwhile as China kidnaps Canadians off the street and throws them in extra-judicial black hole sleep deprivation dungeons, they haven't done anything to upset the Americans at all

 

True enough...China prefers to squeeze economic allies over direct confrontation with the Americans...having mixed results in the Americas and Africa.  

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5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Trump administration just kicked China where it hurts, which is having a Chinese Communist Party elite arrested on Western soil, but they deliberately bypassed the Liberals and didn't tell them it was going to go down, now the Liberals are the one caught in the crossfire, which was very deliberate on the Americans part, meanwhile as China kidnaps Canadians off the street and throws them in extra-judicial black hole sleep deprivation dungeons, they haven't done anything to upset the Americans at all

lol

Well, China had better be careful in its treatment.  Unfortunately for the US, due its hostile foreign policy, Americans won't get as much international sympathy.

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As if the Americans care about international sympathy, the Americans are aware that the international left are communist sympathizing America haters and always have been, but its never crimped America's style, in fact America loves to troll the international left by rubbing its dick in their faces.  lol

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18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

As if the Americans care about international sympathy, the Americans are aware that the international left are communist sympathizing America haters and always have been, but its never crimped America's style, in fact America loves to troll the international left by rubbing its dick in their faces.  lol

Except that sometimes it gets badly bitten.

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Except that sometimes it gets badly bitten.

Never has been badly bitten, American imperial policing missions are not wars of succession, they're just policing.  The only bad bite America has ever suffered, was its own Civil War.

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59 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True enough...China prefers to squeeze economic allies over direct confrontation with the Americans...having mixed results in the Americas and Africa.  

China, she's big, but she's not big enough to take America on yet.  Contrary to Canadian lefty America bashing, when it comes to realpolitik, the countries which count are with Empire of Liberty, and then there's China and its little buddy Mr. Ivan with an economy smaller than Italy's

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9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trudeau has much better relations with China than Trump has.  I'll grant the Liberals that. 

I don't think China respects Canada or Trudeau but it does continue to court American favor. It tells you which of the two North American countries China actually cares about. Trudeau's obsequious approach in dealing with China has accomplished little or nothing. Ms. Meng is being held by Canada on an American extradition request and Trump is negotiating with the Chinese as he continues to squeeze them with steep tariffs. But which country's citizens are being arbitrarily detained in China right now? The answer to this tells you everything you need to know about Trudeau's and Canada's influence and prestige in China. I think it's time to put an end to this farce and just say bye-bye to Beijing.

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10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Never has been badly bitten, American imperial policing missions are not wars of succession, they're just policing.  The only bad bite America has ever suffered, was its own Civil War.

What the USA is doing is not policing, it is terrorism.

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9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

China, she's big, but she's not big enough to take America on yet.  Contrary to Canadian lefty America bashing, when it comes to realpolitik, the countries which count are with Empire of Liberty, and then there's China and its little buddy Mr. Ivan with an economy smaller than Italy's

China already owns the USA. All China needs to do is sell their petro-dollars to bankrupt the USA overnight. China owns a lot of the USA debt and they can easily tell the USA to pay up. The USA can pay up, by printing more money and devaluing their currency to the point of being worthless. That's how the USA has done it each time. Each time making the USA more weaker on the global stage because people are ditching the petro-dollar. And that really is the only think keeping their large military alive. Without that funding their ability to project their forces becomes significantly less. Maybe they can ask the Saudis to pay for the wars that the USA fought for them.

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9 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

China already owns the USA. All China needs to do is sell their petro-dollars to bankrupt the USA overnight. China owns a lot of the USA debt and they can easily tell the USA to pay up. The USA can pay up, by printing more money and devaluing their currency to the point of being worthless. That's how the USA has done it each time. Each time making the USA more weaker on the global stage because people are ditching the petro-dollar. And that really is the only think keeping their large military alive. Without that funding their ability to project their forces becomes significantly less. Maybe they can ask the Saudis to pay for the wars that the USA fought for them.

GostHacked, you clearly don't understand much about economics or international finances. China can't tell the US to do thing one. It owns bonds. It can sell those bonds on the open market, and reduce their value, but that's not going to hurt the US so much as other bond holders. It also doesn't have any petro-dollars, because it has no oil.

Edited by Argus
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12 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

China already owns the USA. All China needs to do is sell their petro-dollars to bankrupt the USA overnight. China owns a lot of the USA debt and they can easily tell the USA to pay up. The USA can pay up, by printing more money and devaluing their currency to the point of being worthless. That's how the USA has done it each time. Each time making the USA more weaker on the global stage because people are ditching the petro-dollar. And that really is the only think keeping their large military alive. Without that funding their ability to project their forces becomes significantly less. Maybe they can ask the Saudis to pay for the wars that the USA fought for them.

Er, no.  That's not how it works.   The Americans don't have a petro dollar, that's not what petro dollar means, Canada has a petro dollar, the American dollar is propped up by the value of the dynamism of America's economy and the world's want to participate in it, otherwise known as the Flight to Quality.

In terms of the Chinese, they've got nothing, they sold a lot of product to America, so in the process they now have trillions of US dollars flooded into China, but it doesn't give the Chinese any particular leverage over the Americans.  Even if they are want to dump their dollars, which is doubtful, that doesn't do much to the USA, and in fact as the dollar goes down US exports go up, so it would help workers in the USA>

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

GostHacked, you clearly don't understand much about economics or international finances. China can't tell the US to do thing one. It owns bonds. It can sell those bonds on the open market, and reduce their value, but that's not going to hurt the US so much as other bond holders. It also doesn't have any petro-dollars, because it has no oil.

You need the petro dollar to BUY oil. This is why some nations are moving away from the US Petro dollar and trading oil in other currencies.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-oil-futures-dollar/china-oil-futures-launch-may-threaten-primacy-of-u-s-dollar-ubs-idUSKBN1H227E

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NEW YORK (Reuters) - China’s launch on Monday of its crude futures exchange will improve the clout of the yuan in financial markets and could threaten the international primacy of the dollar, argues a new report by Hayden Briscoe, APAC head of fixed income at UBS Asset Management.

“This is the single biggest change in capital markets, maybe of all time,” Briscoe said in a follow-up telephone interview.

The launch of the oil futures <0#ISC:> denominated in China’s renminbi currency, also known as the yuan, is China’s first commodity derivative open to foreign investors. This marked the culmination of a decade-long push by the Shanghai Futures Exchange (ShFE) to give the world’s largest energy consumer more power in pricing crude sold to Asia.

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This helps cement the exchange’s viability and challenges the petro-dollar system, in which oil deals are executed in dollars. This would decrease demand for the greenback and boost U.S. inflation.

China surpassed the United States in 2017 to become the world’s largest oil importer. Nevertheless, the existing price benchmarks - Brent and WTI crude - are both in dollars, and importers across the world must buy dollars in order to conduct oil deals.

I understand plenty.

Foreign investors (that would include China own about 7 trillion worth of the USA's debt. Which seems to be about 1/4 of the USA's total debt load. Let's say China owns 1 trillion of those dollars and asks the USA to buy that all back, is the USA in a position to pony up the money?

 

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2 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Foreign investors (that would include China own about 7 trillion worth of the USA's debt. Which seems to be about 1/4 of the USA's total debt load. Let's say China owns 1 trillion of those dollars and asks the USA to buy that all back, is the USA in a position to pony up the money?

That isn't how it works. The US never borrowed any money from China. The US treasury auctions bonds and they are purchased by various entities, including the Chinese. The US has no obligation to repay those bonds until the due date, which is usually 10 -20-30 or more years in the future. They can't be 'called in'. The most the Chinese could do would be to sell them on the open bond market. 

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5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Er, no.  That's not how it works.   The Americans don't have a petro dollar, that's not what petro dollar means, Canada has a petro dollar, the American dollar is propped up by the value of the dynamism of America's economy and the world's want to participate in it, otherwise known as the Flight to Quality.

In terms of the Chinese, they've got nothing, they sold a lot of product to America, so in the process they now have trillions of US dollars flooded into China, but it doesn't give the Chinese any particular leverage over the Americans.  Even if they are want to dump their dollars, which is doubtful, that doesn't do much to the USA, and in fact as the dollar goes down US exports go up, so it would help workers in the USA>

Incorrect, the petro dollar is the currency used to sell and buy oil on the world markets. Without the petro dollar being the dominant currency, then you can begin to understand the position the USA is in. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-a-petrodollar-3306358

Quote

In 1971, U.S. stagflation prompted the United Kingdom to redeem most of its U.S. dollars for gold. President Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard to protect the remaining gold reserves. As a result, the value of the dollar plummeted. But according to the history of the gold standard, the gold standard abandonment served to spur economic growth for the United States and other countries.

Although, that hurt the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries. This was because their oil contracts were priced in U.S. dollars. Their oil revenue dropped along with the dollar. The cost of imports, denominated in other currencies, increased.

In 1973, Nixon asked Congress for military aid to Israel in the Yom Kippur War. OPEC halted oil exports to the United States and other Israeli allies. The OPEC oil embargo quadrupled the price of oil in six months. Prices remained high even after the embargo ended.

 

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The power of the US economy is in the faith of the investors of the world that America is always going to be the best option. America doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than everybody else, which it is, because everybody else are knee jerk bolshevists, while the Americans are the opposite.

In terms of the US debt, it's like a mortgage, they owe the markets $20 trillion, but since they put out over $20 trillion a year, they can cover.  A $20 trillion mortgage is not hard to carry when you're  making $20 trillion a year.

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4 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Incorrect, the petro dollar is the currency used to sell and buy oil on the world markets. Without the petro dollar being the dominant currency, then you can begin to understand the position the USA is in. 

The current US administration would not give a damn if the dollar went down. In fact, Trump has mused about purposefully devaluing the US buck because that makes imports more expensive and exports cheaper for other countries to buy. China would be cutting its own throat because it would mean everything it sells to the US would then bring in a lower amount once converted into Chinese currency.

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