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Should Canada suspend relations with China?


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1 minute ago, Argus said:

That isn't how it works. The US never borrowed any money from China. The US treasury auctions bonds and they are purchased by various entities, including the Chinese. The US has no obligation to repay those bonds until the due date, which is usually 10 -20-30 or more years in the future. They can't be 'called in'. The most the Chinese could do would be to sell them on the open bond market. 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china-owns-us-debt-how-much.asp

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China took the top spot among foreign creditors at $1.17 trillion, followed by Japan, at $1.07 trillion as of January 2018. 

The bold text of your reply is 100% incorrect. Selling their debt to China is the same as borrowing money that has a caveat.

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Consequences of Owing Debt to the Chinese

It's politically popular to say that the Chinese "own the United States" because they are such a huge creditor. The reality is very different than the rhetoric.

 

While around 5% of the national debt isn't exactly insignificant, the Treasury Department has had no problems finding buyers for its products even after a rating downgrade. If the Chinese suddenly decided to call in all of the federal government's obligations (which isn't possible, given the maturities of debt securities), it is very likely that others would step in to service the market. This includes the Federal Reserve, which already owns more than twice as much debt as China.

 

Second, the Chinese rely on American markets to buy Chinese-produced goods. Artificially suppressing the yuan has made it difficult for a growing Chinese middle class, so exports are needed to keep businesses running.

 

Consider what the current arrangement means: The Chinese buy up dollar bills in the form of Treasuries. This helps inflate the value of the dollar. In return, American consumers get cheap Chinese products and incoming investment capital. The average American is made better off by foreigners providing cheap services and only demanding pieces of paper in return.

Yes China makes a bunch of stuff for the USA and that is a problem. But that is mainly due to relaxed regulations in the USA that allowed US corps to outsource to nations like China over the decades.  The US government ALLOWED this to happen.

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The country Justin Trudeau most admires because their basic dictatorship can get things done has just sentenced a human rights lawyer who they disappeared several years ago, to another 4 and a half ye

Purposefully misrepresenting my statement is nothing but trolling.

Should we suspend relations? I mean, it would be their loss, since they're exporting way more to us than the other way around. 

Just now, Argus said:

The current US administration would not give a damn if the dollar went down. In fact, Trump has mused about purposefully devaluing the US buck because that makes imports more expensive and exports cheaper for other countries to buy. China would be cutting its own throat because it would mean everything it sells to the US would then bring in a lower amount once converted into Chinese currency.

What does the USA export these days?

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7 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Incorrect, the petro dollar is the currency used to sell and buy oil on the world markets. Without the petro dollar being the dominant currency, then you can begin to understand the position the USA is in. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-a-petrodollar-3306358

 

That is not what a petro dollar means, a petro dollar is like Canada where the dollar fluctuates with the oil price.  

The US dollar being the reserve currency, in that everything is traded in US dollars starting with oil, is another issue.

That issue being that America floods the world with its dollars because they are largest net importer in the history of the world, so it's not a political choice, the Americans simply buy the most and so their dollar ends up being the reserve currency by default.

Edited by Dougie93
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1 minute ago, GostHacked said:

It's politically popular to say that the Chinese "own the United States" because they are such a huge creditor. The reality is very different than the rhetoric.

While around 5% of the national debt isn't exactly insignificant, the Treasury Department has had no problems finding buyers for its products even after a rating downgrade. If the Chinese suddenly decided to call in all of the federal government's obligations (which isn't possible, given the maturities of debt securities), it is very likely that others would step in to service the market. This includes the Federal Reserve, which already owns more than twice as much debt as China.

This if from your own cite that you just printed. Maye you should read it.

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1 minute ago, GostHacked said:

What does the USA export these days?

Uh... everything. Oil, natural gas, cars, aircraft, tractors and trucks, pipes and steel, high tech services and computers, agricultural products, finely machined parts and tools... basically everything you can think of.

Edited by Argus
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The cycle of Canadian Bolshevism;

Those in Canada who understand the nature of the markets are successful and become wealthy and even rich sometimes.

Those people try to explain to other Canadians how to do it.

Most Canadians being knee bolshevists, reject it and refuse to listen.

The wealthy just shrug and move on, often to live in America instead.

The rest are thrown to the mercy of the Liberal Party of Canada and associated CBC propaganda arm nanny socialist welfare gulag.

Wash, rinse, repeat, otherwise known as the Brain Drain.

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3 minutes ago, Argus said:

The current US administration would not give a damn if the dollar went down. In fact, Trump has mused about purposefully devaluing the US buck because that makes imports more expensive and exports cheaper for other countries to buy. China would be cutting its own throat because it would mean everything it sells to the US would then bring in a lower amount once converted into Chinese currency.

Then why hasn't Trump done that?  Sure they're trying to reverse the trade deficit with tariffs, but why doesn't the US go further and say to companies like Apple and Google, if you want to sell into the US market, move your operations, as least a sizable portion of them, out of China?  The next important trade legislation to protect jobs will require that the amount of a company's production in a country be at least somewhat reflected by the amount of sales in the same country.  China isn't fully a rule of law country.  It uses corporate espionage through its requirement that foreign companies be joint ventures with Chinese companies.  What's more, so called "regulators" ask the companies for the blueprints of their products and reverse engineer them. 

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On 1/13/2019 at 11:42 PM, turningrite said:

And, your point is?...

I reckon that the current Chinese government is working under the 1980s Singapore model of Lee Kuan Yew.

But the laws of the universe are neither Buddhist nor Confucian.

====

IMHO, if we followed the Buddha or Confucius, I reckon, there would never have been someone like Mozart who yearned, desired.

So, I'm a bastard of Voltaire. 

Edited by August1991
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13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

China’s party has to end until real change takes place.  This will require a coordinated approach.  

I too believe that the West needs to entirely reevaluate its views about China. Canada's obsequious approach has accomplished little or nothing for us. A column by Brian Lee Crowley this week in the G&M notes that Canada is now a victim of China's perception that we are weak, in no small measure due to the Trudeau government's "fawning" efforts to establish closer ties with China. The Chinese regime, Crowley notes, "respects strength, not weakness." The author goes further, stating that Canada does have some options here: "There are measures we can take immediately: the expulsion of the ambassador; the use of Magnitsky sanctions against specific members of the regime involved in this travesty; and a warming of our relations with Taiwan. Tightening visa restrictions could be considered, though punishing ordinary Chinese for the actions of the regime might be unpalatable." Why unpalatable, though, when China has no apparent reservations about playing this game itself?

We need to take a firm stand here. There may well be negative consequences, including economic ones. But that will be a small price to pay in order to regain respect. If respect is not possible, what is the point of the relationship in any case?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-china-smells-weakness-so-its-picking-on-canada/

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6 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I too believe that the West needs to entirely reevaluate its views about China. Canada's obsequious approach has accomplished little or nothing for us. A column by Brian Lee Crowley this week in the G&M notes that Canada is now a victim of China's perception that we are weak, in no small measure due to the Trudeau government's "fawning" efforts to establish closer ties with China. The Chinese regime, Crowley notes, "respects strength, not weakness." The author goes further, stating that Canada does have some options here: "There are measures we can take immediately: the expulsion of the ambassador; the use of Magnitsky sanctions against specific members of the regime involved in this travesty; and a warming of our relations with Taiwan. Tightening visa restrictions could be considered, though punishing ordinary Chinese for the actions of the regime might be unpalatable." Why unpalatable, though, when China has no apparent reservations about playing this game itself?

We need to take a firm stand here. There may well be negative consequences, including economic ones. But that will be a small price to pay in order to regain respect. If respect is not possible, what is the point of the relationship in any case?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-china-smells-weakness-so-its-picking-on-canada/

But this is realpolitik, that means  backed up by force, so what is your plan for when the Chinese are not impressed with your attempts to make them lose face, and then they retaliate, with naked force?

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16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

But this is realpolitik, that means  backed up by force, so what is your plan for when the Chinese are not impressed with your attempts to make them lose face, and then they retaliate, with naked force?

The real question is, what could they do? Cut off imports of some commodities, of course. Equally, we could apply huge tariffs, as Trump has done. Maybe they'd pull their visa students and make it more difficult for their citizens to invest in Canada? This would be a double-edged sword, with both drawbacks and benefits for Canadians. But we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. As I said, there would likely be economic consequences but we might as well absorb these right now, while we can. China is counting on us to cave in and do nothing. That's been the Trudeau government's approach but it gets us nowhere with the Chinese. Maybe it's time to mix things up, as Crowley suggests.

Edited by turningrite
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7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Covert paramilitary war against Canadian targets worldwide, to include cyber, so that you would know it was them but they would simply deny it?

 

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Seize a Canadian warship in the China seas and take the crew hostage?

Why do any of these things? Just isolate the Chinese. Close our diplomatic offices and missions in that country and refuse to issue new visas to its citizens. Align our approach to trade with China with Trump's. Military action won't prove anything. Downgrading our economic and diplomatic relationship with China will be much more effective and useful.

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Why be a communist dictatorship in the first place?   I think you're vastly underestimating how dangerous these people are, and how arrogant they are now that they cannot be easily contained by the Americans, and Asian politics is all about face, and a loss of face is actually a casus belli in China.

This a big dog, this is a very mean dog, and thermonuclear weapons is the only thing that is really restraining them.

 

But moreover, they are the second largest economy on earth, they can freeze you out, in that all your "friends" would stop being your friends, just to maintain access to China, so you would be the one isolated not them.

Edited by Dougie93
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Bear in mind, there's been an internal putsch in China, this is not the China Jean Chretien was dealing with, they've back slided into Stalinism and that's who Xi Jinping is, except he's much more powerful than Stalin was because China is more powerful than the Soviet Union ever was.

This is not necessarily a rational actor by the Canadian standards of rational, in the realpolitik of thermonuclear standoff, Hegemons place a premium on power for its own sake in of itself.

Edited by Dougie93
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I would submit, China is far most Stalinist and repressive than the Russians, in Russia, basically don't agitate against Putin and you'll be fine, in China, they are running Orwellian Panopticon with a million people in concentration camps, you don't see the Kremlin doing mass executions, but its going on in China all the time.

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So now ask yourself this;  Is a Stalinist hyper repressive brutal dictatorship running an Orwellian Panopticon and making claims over the China Seas that will be World War Three if they ever try to enforce them. . .

 . . . really a rational actor behaving rationally?

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I mean, I love dogs, I don't have children I have dogs, and dogs are for the most part the sweetest nicest most lovable things on earth.

But when you encounter an enraged and ferocious pit bull mastiff yanking at a chain to rip your throat out . . .

 . . . don't pet that dog.   Certainly don't pick a fight with it.  Just back away slowly.

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And again, back to Canadian Confederation being of no particular use to you;

Canada cannot defend you nor your interests, the only thing standing between you and the howling winds of thermonuclear realpolitik, is again;

The United Kingdom - United States Security Agreement and associated Anglo-American Joint Strategic Deterrent and Five Eyes intelligence alliance.

In Westphalian terms, that is your real country, Canadian Confederation is just for show.

Edited by Dougie93
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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

But this is realpolitik, that means  backed up by force, so what is your plan for when the Chinese are not impressed with your attempts to make them lose face, and then they retaliate, with naked force?

We'll call in the Star Trek Enterprise from the future to zap them with its photon torpedos.

Because there's as much chance of the time traveling Enterprise existing as there is of China retaliating with 'naked force'.

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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Covert paramilitary war against Canadian targets worldwide, to include cyber, so that you would know it was them but they would simply deny it?

So nothing new, then?

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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Seize a Canadian warship in the China seas and take the crew hostage?

Bullshit. You like to postulate these nonsensical overreactions on the part of everyone to justify your defeatism. If you were a soldier and were ever attacked it seems, from your postings here, the first thing you'd have done was surrender.

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