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Toxic Masculinity ad from Gillette.

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Just now, Boges said:

Gillette is marketing to topical mens issues, that do exist. 

Sure, and the use of extremist feminists to make a message for males about something totally unrelated to shaving is downright wrong, and it's clear that there are political reasons behind the advertisement. They are deleting the dislikes on the video and on the top comments like crazy on the Gillette Ad.

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2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I think men have been given a warped view of what it means to be a man - Boys will be boys, Only sissies cry, etc.....

 

Those are very broad statements that are most of the times valid. Yes, boys will fight for fun. They may get hurt, sometimes. Just like little girls LOVE to gossip. And some may get hurt by it too. 

 

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Companies making political marketing decisions that aren't related to the widget they sell is nothing new. 

 

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Just now, Goddess said:

I agree that men also get the wrong messages from advertising, along with the pressure to look a certain way physically.  I don't think it's as pervasive as it is with women.

Our culture, despite what anyone might think of gender equality, is still largely that of women trying to attract men, of women trying to persuade men to ask them out, to approach them.

Just now, Goddess said:

I think men have been given a warped view of what it means to be a man - Boys will be boys, Only sissies cry, etc.....

And what supports that warped view? Womens preferences in men for boyfriends and husbands has been fairly consistent over the years and decades and centuries. They want big, strong, tough, confident, assertive men. They don't want men who cry and they don't want men who can be easily intimidated. Bad boys are sexy. Nerds and geeks are definitely not.  Women lust after firefighters, soldiers, forest rangers and cops, not librarians, bookkeepers or software developers.

So if men feel the need to project ruggedness and toughness maybe that's more than slightly related to what women want from men.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Boges said:

Companies making political marketing decisions that aren't related to the widget they sell is nothing new. 

 

I agree with you, and totally on that one.

Hiring feminists to send a message to men as a whole to behave better, well it's clear the feminist/left-wing/corporate establishment are hands in hands.

Corporations, the Government and the Academia work hand in hand together.

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Our culture, despite what anyone might think of gender equality, is still largely that of women trying to attract men, of women trying to persuade men to ask them out, to approach them.

And what supports that warped view? Womens preferences in men for boyfriends and husbands has been fairly consistent over the years and decades and centuries. They want big, strong, tough, confident, assertive men. They don't want men who cry and they don't want men who can be easily intimidated. Bad boys are sexy. Nerds and geeks are definitely not.  Women lust after firefighters, soldiers, forest rangers and cops, not librarians, bookkeepers or software developers.

So if men feel the need to project ruggedness and toughness maybe that's more than slightly related to what women want from men.

 

 

Hmmm.....I see what you're saying.  I'm not sure women are the ones to blame for male aggression, though.  (I know you're not blaming it JUST on women.)  Perhaps like men are not generally attracted to a "butch" looking woman, women are generally not attracted to effeminate males.  And while women in general may be attracted to more "manly" men (I can't think of a better word right now) the vast majority of us are not into getting beaten.

A personal anecdote, I broke up with someone who got into fights everywhere we went - sometimes verbal, sometimes physical.  When I talked to him about it, he said, "I don't start fights, baby, I finish them."  Good-bye.  Thanks for playing.B)  So yeah, not all women are into aggressive males.

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13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Hmmm.....I see what you're saying.  I'm not sure women are the ones to blame for male aggression, though.  (I know you're not blaming it JUST on women.)  Perhaps like men are not generally attracted to a "butch" looking woman, women are generally not attracted to effeminate males.  And while women in general may be attracted to more "manly" men (I can't think of a better word right now) the vast majority of us are not into getting beaten.

Oh I'm well aware of it. The problem is that the type of man women are (in general) attracted to are much likely to engage in aggressive behaviour towards anyone who annoys them. The ideal man is, of course, someone like the characters played by John Wayne, say, or the James Bond types. Deadly dangerous, tough, smart, but they'd never hit a woman (well, Bond would, but only spies who try to kill them)

I used to read a detective series called Spenser For Hire. Spenser was a big, bruiser of an ex-heavyweight boxer and ex-cop whose best friend was a gangland killer for hire. He was also endlessly sensitive, caring, into gourmet foods and wines, quoted poetry and consulted his Jewish psychologist girlfriend about how to best nurture victims. It was an entertaining series, but it always struck me an absurd mixture of character traits impossible to find in one man.

If you want a caring, sensitive man not afraid to cry, you're looking at the librarian. And librarians just aren't anything like as sexy as the biker with the days growth of beard on his face and the hunger in his eyes. The biker will be much more exciting, of course, but excitement doesn't always mean good things.

Quote

A personal anecdote, I broke up with someone who got into fights everywhere we went - sometimes verbal, sometimes physical.  When I talked to him about it, he said, "I don't start fights, baby, I finish them."  Good-bye.  Thanks for playing.B)  So yeah, not all women are into aggressive males.

And I bet he found another woman who thought that was sexy. Meanwhile the Librarian is at home alone reading Chaucer - or playing Fortnight.

BTW, that line is not new. My brother in law uses it too. And it doesn't seem to bother my sister - not enough to try to murder him anyway, like his last wife did.

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6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Oh I'm well aware of it. The problem is that the type of man women are (in general) attracted to are much likely to engage in aggressive behaviour towards anyone who annoys them. The ideal man is, of course, someone like the characters played by John Wayne, say, or the James Bond types. Deadly dangerous, tough, smart, but they'd never hit a woman (well, Bond would, but only spies who try to kill them)

I used to read a detective series called Spenser For Hire. Spenser was a big, bruiser of an ex-heavyweight boxer and ex-cop whose best friend was a gangland killer for hire. He was also endlessly sensitive, caring, into gourmet foods and wines, quoted poetry and consulted his Jewish psychologist girlfriend about how to best nurture victims. It was an entertaining series, but it always struck me an absurd mixture of character traits impossible to find in one man.

If you want a caring, sensitive man not afraid to cry, you're looking at the librarian. And librarians just aren't anything like as sexy as the biker with the days growth of beard on his face and the hunger in his eyes. The biker will be much more exciting, of course, but excitement doesn't always mean good things.

And I bet he found another woman who thought that was sexy. Meanwhile the Librarian is at home alone reading Chaucer - or playing Fortnight.

BTW, that line is not new. My brother in law uses it too. And it doesn't seem to bother my sister - not enough to try to murder him anyway, like his last wife did.

See now that's simplistic. 

I'm sure women do like macho strong men. But we're living in a society where the nerd that likes comics and plays video game can pull just as much tail if he takes care of himself as well. 

Since we're talking about generalizations, these guys that have these macho jobs need Unions to protect them and often commit suicide. 

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Just now, Boges said:

See now that's simplistic. 

I'm sure women do like macho strong men. But we're living in a society where the nerd that likes comics and plays video game can pull just as much tail if he takes care of himself as well. 

In what world are you living at present? Or by 'if he takes care of himself' do you mean' if he bulks up at the gym?

How many highly paid software designers at Microsoft do you think can't get a woman vs members of the Hells Angels?

 

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

How many highly paid software designers at Microsoft do you think can't get a woman vs members of the Hells Angels?

Is that entirely rhetorical? 

Looks play into it. I'm sure if the Hell's Angel dude had a boiler and huge beard and the designer dressed well, it would be the designer. 

BTW nothing is wrong with wanting to better yourself physically to attract the opposite sex. For men or women. 

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2 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Is there a razor company that incels can turn to now that Gillette has come out against abuse?

The ones name calling as incels those who oppose feminism are the equivalent of saying women who are feminists are sexually frustrated in the 19th century.

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3 hours ago, Goddess said:

Hmmm.....I see what you're saying.  I'm not sure women are the ones to blame for male aggression, though.  (I know you're not blaming it JUST on women.)  Perhaps like men are not generally attracted to a "butch" looking woman, women are generally not attracted to effeminate males.  And while women in general may be attracted to more "manly" men (I can't think of a better word right now) the vast majority of us are not into getting beaten.

A personal anecdote, I broke up with someone who got into fights everywhere we went - sometimes verbal, sometimes physical.  When I talked to him about it, he said, "I don't start fights, baby, I finish them."  Good-bye.  Thanks for playing.B)  So yeah, not all women are into aggressive males.

Is that really what "manly men" means to you, someone who beats their woman?  Wow!  This is the caricature/stereotype that Gillette has put into their ad, and people are buying it up.  I work in a predominately male oriented industry, I know many many men and I don't know any wife beaters, nor do I know any man who would be accepting of a wife beater.  I'm sure it happens, but I think it's pretty rare.  I actually know more men who are afraid of their wives than anything else.  I know that those "yo, baby" dudes get laughed at by us regular guys.  I know very very few men will allow their son to bully another person.  This ad shows the behaviour of about 1% of the men in the western world.

P.S - I've been in a number of street fights and I'll be honest when I say that at least 50% were directly caused by women getting in some guys face..."Ummm, can you cool it dear, I'm the one that'll have to go outside with guy - not you".  Yeah, that's how many fights happen. 

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I love getting lectured by corporations on morality.

 

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42 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

 P.S - I've been in a number of street fights and I'll be honest when I say that at least 50% were directly caused by women getting in some guys face..."Ummm, can you cool it dear, I'm the one that'll have to go outside with guy - not you".  Yeah, that's how many fights happen. 

That's so funny because it's true.

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5 hours ago, Boges said:

Is that entirely rhetorical? 

Looks play into it. I'm sure if the Hell's Angel dude had a boiler and huge beard and the designer dressed well, it would be the designer. 

BTW nothing is wrong with wanting to better yourself physically to attract the opposite sex. For men or women. 

Nobody said there was anything wrong with bettering yourself. And nobody said there was anything good about acting like an asshole. I'm simply pointing out that at a part of male aggression displays are related to them seeking female approval. And that this works more often than not. In high school and college, it's not the members of the chess club who have legions of girls going after them, but the the guys on the football and hockey teams.

And you know something else you get for aggression? Financial success. Who are the rich and powerful? Nice, gentle, sensitive, caring folks? Or people like Bill Gates, who was, from all accounts, a miserable bastard when building Microsoft, though not as miserable as Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook. Of course, Apple was founded by the gentle, kindly Steve Jobs. I understand his nickname was "Mister nice guy"? Or maybe not.  And then there's Amazon's Steve Bezos, a tyrant bulldozering the world. You think there are a lot of nice guy CEOs in their corner offices? You think law firms offer partnerships to a lot of nice guys? You think you rise to the top anywhere by being Mr. Nice Guy?

Women reward tough, aggressive men. Society rewards tough, aggressive men (or women) It's more than a little hypocritical to bitch about male aggression and urge men to be kinder and gentler and more sensitive when aggression is rewarded so much more often.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

And you know something else you get for aggression? Financial success. Who are the rich and powerful? Nice, gentle, sensitive, caring folks? Or people like Bill Gates, who was, from all accounts, a miserable bastard when building Microsoft, though not as miserable as Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook. Of course, Apple was founded by the gentle, kindly Steve Jobs. I understand his nickname was "Mister nice guy"? Or maybe not.  And then there's Amazon's Steve Bezos, a tyrant bulldozering the world. You think there are a lot of nice guy CEOs in their corner offices? You think law firms offer partnerships to a lot of nice guys? You think you rise to the top anywhere by being Mr. Nice Guy?

Women reward tough, aggressive men. Society rewards tough, aggressive men (or women) It's more than a little hypocritical to bitch about male aggression and urge men to be kinder and gentler and more sensitive when aggression is rewarded so much more often.

But the same people who whine about "male aggression" also whine about financial success and want to tear down the rich and successful, too. It is, at least, consistent. 

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15 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

Is that really what "manly men" means to you, someone who beats their woman?  Wow! 

 

 

Ummm, no.  That's why I made the distinction between "manly" men and men who are physically aggressive with women.  I was stumped before for a word instead of "manly" but I think I'm talking about general "man" traits, the ways men and women are different.  Not in a bad way, but let's face it - men and women often think differently about things.  

 

Quote

This ad shows the behaviour of about 1% of the men in the western world.

I would say it's more than 1%.

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I don't see this ad as attacking masculinity. I see it as redefining it.  I see it as expanding it.  

I'm not sure why that frightens and offends some men.

MY BF says that his father taught him to be respectful of women - opening car doors, etc.  Which is great.  But his father also said things like, "I will never vote for a woman politician.  It's not their place." and every time his mother talked about buying something, he would chastise her with, "Yeah, with MY MONEY!!!" like she had no hand in and contributed nothing to the 58 year marriage and didn't deserve to spend $20 on that new whatever.  Respecting women is much more than just opening car doors for them.

I'm not judging his dad - he was 81 when he died last year and was really just a product of his times.  But thank the Goddess, men with those views are a dying breed.

I also think equality scares some men.  Maybe they think if they give up any power to women, women will take over and dominate them in the same way men have dominated women through the centuries.

I've also seen relationships where the wife is clearly calling the shots on everything.  That is just as dysfunctional and detrimental to families as when the man calls the shots on everything.

 

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34 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I don't see this ad as attacking masculinity. I see it as redefining it.  I see it as expanding it.  

I'm not sure why that frightens and offends some men.

MY BF says that his father taught him to be respectful of women - opening car doors, etc.  Which is great.  But his father also said things like, "I will never vote for a woman politician.  It's not their place." and every time his mother talked about buying something, he would chastise her with, "Yeah, with MY MONEY!!!" like she had no hand in and contributed nothing to the 58 year marriage and didn't deserve to spend $20 on that new whatever.  Respecting women is much more than just opening car doors for them.

I'm not judging his dad - he was 81 when he died last year and was really just a product of his times.  But thank the Goddess, men with those views are a dying breed.

I also think equality scares some men.  Maybe they think if they give up any power to women, women will take over and dominate them in the same way men have dominated women through the centuries.

I've also seen relationships where the wife is clearly calling the shots on everything.  That is just as dysfunctional and detrimental to families as when the man calls the shots on everything.

 

I'll tell you that without a doubt I know a lot more relationships where the wife/woman is calling the shots than the man, and it's not even close.  Most men I know don't even see the money that they - or either of them earn.  I see a vast majority of women driving the newer/safer vehicle while the man drives the older pick-up, I see women going out to sushi night with the girls way more often than any guy will go out for a hockey and beer night.  Men nowadays have very little control over their own lives.  I get that your father -in-law had his belief system, but believe me, that pretty much died out about 30 years ago for all but a tiny group of people.  This isn't a Don Draper world and hasn't been for quite some time.

I don't take issue with the message of the ad, I take issue with the presumptions that the ad reaches.    

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

 I'm not judging his dad - he was 81 when he died last year and was really just a product of his times.  But thank the Goddess, men with those views are a dying breed.

Well, not really, if he were 81 in 1995 I would agree, but in that case society evolved, he's just a douche, just as some men are, as some women are. too.

What do you propose to 'expand' femininity if you which to 'expand' masculinity? What should women learn too?

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3 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

 

What do you propose to 'expand' femininity if you which to 'expand' masculinity? What should women learn too?

Why do you feel that men do not have any changing to do in their thinking or behaviours but women do?

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6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Why do you feel that men do not have any changing to do in their thinking or behaviours but women do?

You're totally flipping the argument. It's actually crazy.

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8 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

You're totally flipping the argument. It's actually crazy.

You're flipping the argument.  This is about men and the Gillette ad - not about women.

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