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Machjo

Ottawa says Ontario's call to drop retaliatory tariffs would mean 'surrender'

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...iffs-1.5004736 
Let me get this straight. The US raised tariffs against Canada and so essentially shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, we can't have that, so Canada retaliated by raising retaliatory tariffs and so essentially shot itself in the foot in retaliation.
Ontario and Quebec are now asking Ottawa to stop shooting Canada in the foot and Ottawa says it refuses to do that until the US stops shooting itself in the foot first since to do so would equal surrendering to the US. Did I miss anything here?

To be honest, even if Canada unilaterally dropped its tariffs against the US and the US didn't reciprocate, so what? Just because Trump is foolish enough to hurt US consumers doesn't mean Canada needs to act equally foolish so as to hurt Canadian consumers too. Let Trump do his thing, but Canada should focus on wise economic policy, not economic emotionalism.

Edited by Machjo

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It's not about the impact on consumers....if that were the case, Canada would not have such a protectionist tariff scheme for dairy, poultry, etc., years before and regardless of Trump.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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24 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It's not about the impact on consumers....if that were the case, Canada would not have such a protectionist tariff scheme for dairy, poultry, etc., years before and regardless of Trump.

Are you saying that Canada's been shooting itself in the foot for years now already? I agree.

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1 minute ago, Machjo said:

Are you saying that Canada's been shooting itself in the foot for years now already? I agree.

 

No, I am saying that tariff impact on consumer prices is a secondary concern for trade policies.   

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1 hour ago, Machjo said:

Let me get this straight. The US raised tariffs against Canada and so essentially shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, we can't have that, so Canada retaliated by raising retaliatory tariffs and so essentially shot itself in the foot in retaliation.
Ontario and Quebec are now asking Ottawa to stop shooting Canada in the foot and Ottawa says it refuses to do that until the US stops shooting itself in the foot first since to do so would equal surrendering to the US. Did I miss anything here?

To be honest, even if Canada unilaterally dropped its tariffs against the US and the US didn't reciprocate, so what? Just because Trump is foolish enough to hurt US consumers doesn't mean Canada needs to act equally foolish so as to hurt Canadian consumers too. Let Trump do his thing, but Canada should focus on wise economic policy, not economic emotionalism.

Got it straight. You didn't miss anything.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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Canada should not only maintain the tariffs but should NOT ratify USMCA, a shit deal for Canada.  Hopefully the Dem controlled Congress doesn’t give Trump a happy dance over his extortionist trade deal.  No trade deals until US steel and aluminum tariffs are removed!!!!

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8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada should not only maintain the tariffs but should NOT ratify USMCA, a shit deal for Canada.  Hopefully the Dem controlled Congress doesn’t give Trump a happy dance over his extortionist trade deal.  No trade deals until US steel and aluminum tariffs are removed!!!!

Canada should shoot itself in the foot if the US insists on shooting itself in the foot, yeah, would be nice if we just didn't shoot ourselves in the foot instead, not buying. Canada has more ridiculous tariffs on US goods than vice versa, Canada is in no position to pretend like they are the good guys in the trade relationship with America.

Edited by Yzermandius19
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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada should not only maintain the tariffs but should NOT ratify USMCA, a shit deal for Canada.  Hopefully the Dem controlled Congress doesn’t give Trump a happy dance over his extortionist trade deal.  No trade deals until US steel and aluminum tariffs are removed!!!!

I actually agree that we shouldn't ratify the USMCA. Instead, we should show the US the proverbial finger and adopt a policy of unilateral global free trade in tariffs and quotas, and then return to the US to offer to negotiate a more comprehensive free-trade agreement beyond tariffs and quotas (like packaging and labeling, phytosanitary regulations, banking, etc.) if it wants to, but on the condition that any agreement must guarantee Canada's freedom to maintain unilateral global free trade. Should the US refuse to negotiate on that basis, then no-deal it is, and Canada satisfies itself with unilateral free trade in tariffs and quotas with the US.

If the US wants to raise tariffs against its own consumers (which has already hurt Harley Davidson, talk about backfiring, and that had nothing to do with Canada's tariffs against the US but rather with the US' own foolish tariffs against its own manufacturers who depended on materials imports), then that's its foolish prerogative. Just because Trump decides to shot US manufacturing in the foot with his tariffs, we don't have to follow suit and shoot ours in the foot with our own. Let Trump do what he'll do, and we'll do what we'll do.

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A simple question. Trump's tariffs against Canada actually caused Harley Davidson to move some of its operations abroad and we can reasonably presume that they hurt other US industries that depended on imported materials too. Given that, why would Canada want to copy Trump's example?

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54 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Canada should shoot itself in the foot if the US insists on shooting itself in the foot, yeah, would be nice if we just didn't shoot ourselves in the foot instead, not buying. Canada has more ridiculous tariffs on US goods than vice versa, Canada is in no position to pretend like they are the good guys in the trade relationship with America.

And the worst part is that Canadian tariffs hurt Canadians more than they do anyone else. If the US raises tariffs against Canada, Canada can always just sell to someone else. If Canada raises tariffs against foreign imports, Canadian consumers are trapped.

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7 minutes ago, Machjo said:

And the worst part is that Canadian tariffs hurt Canadians more than they do anyone else. If the US raises tariffs against Canada, Canada can always just sell to someone else. If Canada raises tariffs against foreign imports, Canadian consumers are trapped.

Canadian tariffs hurt Canadian consumers more than they do anyone else and American tariffs hurt American consumers more than they do anyone else. Both sides would be wise to knock it off and come to their senses, but I wouldn't hold my breath on either side realizing that any time soon.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Canadian tariffs hurt Canadians more than they do anyone else and American tariffs hurt Americans more than they do anyone else. Both sides would be wise to knock it off and come to their senses, but I wouldn't hold my breath on either side realizing that any time soon.

And even if one side chooses to remain foolish, that doesn't force the other side to act equally foolishly. If the US wants to maintain tariffs against Canada, so be it. Canada should just adopt unilateral free trade in tariffs and quotas and make the guarantee of its right to maintain that policy a condition of any trade agreement with any state. No trade agreement that Canada signs with one state should ever force Canada to raise tariffs or quotas against any state.

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10 minutes ago, Machjo said:

And even if one side chooses to remain foolish, that doesn't force the other side to act equally foolishly. If the US wants to maintain tariffs against Canada, so be it. Canada should just adopt unilateral free trade in tariffs and quotas and make the guarantee of its right to maintain that policy a condition of any trade agreement with any state. No trade agreement that Canada signs with one state should ever force Canada to raise tariffs or quotas against any state.

Milton Friedman's Hong Kong sure rode that strategy to prosperity, despite being a desolate rock with no natural resources other than a natural harbor.

Don't see Canada adopting that policy though, if the Zombie Confederation ceases to be, perhaps Upper Canada without the baggage of the rest of Canada, would be more likely to adopt such a strategy.

But as long as Quebec remains a part of Canada, they will demand their supply management gulag be propped up by insanely high tariffs against their foreign competition, so that's a non-starter.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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11 minutes ago, Machjo said:

And even if one side chooses to remain foolish, that doesn't force the other side to act equally foolishly. If the US wants to maintain tariffs against Canada, so be it. Canada should just adopt unilateral free trade in tariffs and quotas and make the guarantee of its right to maintain that policy a condition of any trade agreement with any state. No trade agreement that Canada signs with one state should ever force Canada to raise tariffs or quotas against any state.

Under those conditions, why manufacture or produce anything?  How would people be employed and paid?  You need to explain that. 

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1 hour ago, Machjo said:

I actually agree that we shouldn't ratify the USMCA. Instead, we should show the US the proverbial finger and adopt a policy of unilateral global free trade in tariffs and quotas, and then return to the US to offer to negotiate a more comprehensive free-trade agreement beyond tariffs and quotas (like packaging and labeling, phytosanitary regulations, banking, etc.) if it wants to,

 

 

Go for it....Canada is far more dependent on export trade to a single nation than is the United States.    Canada is more dependent on exports than even China.     Canada lacks sufficient market size and domestic capital resources to abandon trade and foreign direct investment with the United States.

Canada will never, ever win a full out trade war with the United States.   

As for Harley-Davidson...Canada doesn't have one...or any domestically owned auto makes.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Under those conditions, why manufacture or produce anything?  How would people be employed and paid?  You need to explain that. 

Simple, manufacturing and production would go up, because there would be no tariffs on any materials that manufacturers need to import to do that, which would reduce their cost of doing business, especially in relation to the competition located in foreign nations with higher tariffs on those same materials.

Edited by Yzermandius19
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8 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Simple, manufacturing and production would go up, because there would be no tariffs on any materials that manufacturers need to import to do that, which would reduce their cost of doing business, especially in relation to the competition located in foreign nations with higher tariffs on those same materials.

We can’t undercut such low offshore wages.  I don’t think it would matter how low our other input costs are.  

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11 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Milton Friedman's Hong Kong sure rode that strategy to prosperity, despite being a desolate rock with no natural resources other than a natural harbor.

Don't see Canada adopting that policy though, if the Zombie Confederation ceases to be, perhaps Upper Canada without the baggage of the rest of Canada, would be more likely to adopt such a strategy.

But as long as Quebec remains a part of Canada, they will demand their supply management gulag be propped up by insanely high tariffs against their foreign competition, so that's a non-starter.

Let me propose a radical solution to that. What if Ontario and Quebec and other provinces got together to propose a simple constitutional amendment to transfer international economic policy to the provinces. This would mean that provinces that want protectionism could have it while those that want free trade could have that. Each province could adopt its own foreign trade policy. This would include its own packaging and labeling, phytosanitary, banking, and other standards too.

Of course this would mean that a province could raise tariffs against other provinces too, but so be it. It would do so to its own economic peril and the other provinces would have no obligation to reciprocate the foolishness.

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10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Under those conditions, why manufacture or produce anything?  How would people be employed and paid?  You need to explain that. 

Simple. As more factories move to the US, the USD would rise relative to the CAD. It wouldn't take long before Canadians couldn't afford US products and Americans start willingly paying the tariffs for better-priced Canadian goods. The US would soon paint itself into a corner in its dependence on tariffs.

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10 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Simple, manufacturing and production would go up, because there would be no tariffs on any materials that manufacturers need to import to do that, which would reduce their cost of doing business, especially in relation to the competition located in foreign nations with higher tariffs on those same materials.

That's what happened to Harley Davidson. Trump raised tariffs on products that Harley Davidson depended on, so Harley started to relocate out of the US.

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10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Go for it....Canada is far more dependent on export trade to a single nation than is the United States.    Canada is more dependent on exports than even China.     Canada lacks sufficient market size and domestic capital resources to abandon trade and foreign direct investment with the United States.

Canada will never, ever win a full out trade war with the United States.   

As for Harley-Davidson...Canada doesn't have one...or any domestically owned auto makes.

Who said anything about a trade war? I'm talking about unilateral global free trade.

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34 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We can’t undercut such low offshore wages.  I don’t think it would matter how low our other input costs are.  

Look at Hong Kong. Tariffs increase the cost of living which thus forces our wages up so we can survive. Free trade would reduce the cost of living which would thus make us more willing to work for lower wages while still maintaining the same standard of living. It's the tariffs themselves that are forcing our wages up.

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3 hours ago, Machjo said:

Let me propose a radical solution to that. What if Ontario and Quebec and other provinces got together to propose a simple constitutional amendment to transfer international economic policy to the provinces. This would mean that provinces that want protectionism could have it while those that want free trade could have that. Each province could adopt its own foreign trade policy. This would include its own packaging and labeling, phytosanitary, banking, and other standards too.

Of course this would mean that a province could raise tariffs against other provinces too, but so be it. It would do so to its own economic peril and the other provinces would have no obligation to reciprocate the foolishness.

Canadian provinces already have tariffs against other provinces, that's one of the biggest problems with confederation, a lack of internal trade, it not like America where no state tariffs the products of another other state, America is a free trade zone, Canada is not. 

Edited by Yzermandius19

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