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Trudeau lying about SNC

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Butts performed well, of course, but dragging jobs into the argument was a fundamental mistake. Pressuring the AG on a case is either right or wrong on its own merits. How many jobs are involved should be irrelevant. 

It looks like JT will survive this crisis. What a pity to lose two good ministers, especially Philpott. I wouldn’t mind seeing her running the place one day but I doubt if that will ever happen. 

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On 3/7/2019 at 7:30 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Butts performed well, of course, but dragging jobs into the argument was a fundamental mistake. Pressuring the AG on a case is either right or wrong on its own merits. How many jobs are involved should be irrelevant. 

It looks like JT will survive this crisis. What a pity to lose two good ministers, especially Philpott. I wouldn’t mind seeing her running the place one day but I doubt if that will ever happen. 

Ya, Butt did a good job to muddy the waters.

It is relevant. It gives the "JT kool-aid" drinkers an excuse to vote for JT in the next election :rolleyes:

Edited by egghead

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11 hours ago, Rue said:

I apologize for the length it was ridiculously long but I wanted to cover all the issues properly.

I expect no one to read them all but I try cover them all with proper care.

You might be surprised as to how many actually DO read and respect your detailed analysis - and copy them to friends.

Thanks for the insight.

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On 3/7/2019 at 6:26 AM, GostHacked said:

How do you prevent SECRET meetings?

With the most rigorous robust institutions of accountability we can devise.  I'd start with a process that involves audits of digital and written records to validate that specific points of legislation and policies can be traced directly to the discussions and negotiations that produced them.

Penalties for trying to get around the system should be severe and swift.

Near total accountability can be achieved and is being achieved as we speak by some of the most secretive people in the world.

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15 hours ago, Rue said:

I apologize for the length it was ridiculously long but I wanted to cover all the issues properly.

I expect no one to read them all but I try cover them all with proper care.

Well it looks like we may get some answers.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc-lavalin-deferred-prosecution-1.5048561

Prosecution might go forward on this matter ... 

Quote

SNC-Lavalin, the engineering firm at the centre of a political scandal engulfing the Liberal government, has lost its bid for a judicial review of the director of public prosecution's decision to proceed with criminal prosecution of the company on corruption charges.

The company has been seeking a remediation agreement to avoid criminal proceedings related to bribery charges linked to contracts in Libya.

Today's court decision means the Montreal-based engineering and construction firm can only get a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) now if Minister of Justice and Attorney General David Lametti overturns the public prosecutor's Oct. 9, 2018 decision.

 

Not holding my breath or anything.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Near total accountability can be achieved and is being achieved as we speak by some of the most secretive people in the world.

Could you expand on that?

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49 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Could you expand on that?

Sure, many commercial fishermen have cameras on their boats that record what is being caught and discarded. Cameras turn on as soon as the hydraulics used to haul fish are engaged.  This record is audited and compared to written logs (validated) and further validation occurs dockside when delivering. You let authorities know  when you're heading out and when you return to harbour)

Tampering with cameras or the software gathering other data (gps data/lat long, depth etc) is enough to have you eliminated from the fishery - as will trying to offload without a validator present. If there are too many gaps or errors in your record you are required to take a human observer, at additional cost (we're responsible for the costs of our own oversight). If you report that you landed 1000 fish you better unload 1000 fish. It's that simple.

Similar procedures could easily be used to keep politicians honest. Simply put, we need to outlaw in-camera lobbying.  If lobbyists and politicians insist on meeting around the 18th hole or down at the club, fine, just ensure that their discussions are recorded so they can be validated by auditors and directly tied and matched to corresponding elements of whatever policy, legislation or decisions are made.

It's not rocket science, it's political science.

Edited by eyeball
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4 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Well it looks like we may get some answers.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc-lavalin-deferred-prosecution-1.5048561

Prosecution might go forward on this matter ... 

 

Not holding my breath or anything.

 

 

 

Of course Lametti will (try to) overturn the decision. That's why he was made AG. 

And then we'll have politicians running the courts however they choose.

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3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Similar procedures could easily be used to keep politicians honest. Simply put, we need to outlaw in-camera lobbying.  If lobbyists and politicians insist on meeting around the 18th hole or down at the club, fine, just ensure that their discussions are recorded so they can be validated by auditors and directly tied and matched to corresponding elements of whatever policy, legislation or decisions are made.

It's not rocket science, it's political science.

It's time. 

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3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure, many commercial fishermen have cameras on their boats that record what is being caught and discarded. Cameras turn on as soon as the hydraulics used to haul fish are engaged.  This record is audited and compared to written logs (validated) and further validation occurs dockside when delivering. You let authorities know  when you're heading out and when you return to harbour)

Tampering with cameras or the software gathering other data (gps data/lat long, depth etc) is enough to have you eliminated from the fishery - as will trying to offload without a validator present. If there are too many gaps or errors in your record you are required to take a human observer, at additional cost (we're responsible for the costs of our own oversight). If you report that you landed 1000 fish you better unload 1000 fish. It's that simple.

Similar procedures could easily be used to keep politicians honest. Simply put, we need to outlaw in-camera lobbying.  If lobbyists and politicians insist on meeting around the 18th hole or down at the club, fine, just ensure that their discussions are recorded so they can be validated by auditors and directly tied and matched to corresponding elements of whatever policy, legislation or decisions are made.

It's not rocket science, it's political science.

Are you advocating for the 24/7 surveillance of politicians? Unlike fishermen, they’re never off work really. I suspect this would make the frank discussions necessary to make political sausage all but impossible. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland

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3 hours ago, jacee said:

It's time. 

I've been saying so for years.

 

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Are you advocating for the 24/7 surveillance of politicians? Unlike fishermen, they’re never off work really.  

I fish around the clock sometimes.

 

Quote

 

I suspect this would make the frank discussions necessary to make political sausage all but impossible.

 

Then make lemonade.

 

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I am a writer and received a warning for referring to my own scholarly work which is a bestseller on Amazon. This site sucks lol. Too much censorship...what is the point then if you make a polite comment????????? Crazy! Especially if you are the author....

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5 hours ago, jacee said:

Of course Lametti will (try to) overturn the decision. That's why he was made AG. 

And then we'll have politicians running the courts however they choose.

Don't they do that already, ask your self how Justins sexual assault charges doing anyways.....her version of things differ than my version I don't remember groping her....sound familiar...

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9 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure, many commercial fishermen have cameras on their boats that record what is being caught and discarded. Cameras turn on as soon as the hydraulics used to haul fish are engaged.  This record is audited and compared to written logs (validated) and further validation occurs dockside when delivering. You let authorities know  when you're heading out and when you return to harbour)

Tampering with cameras or the software gathering other data (gps data/lat long, depth etc) is enough to have you eliminated from the fishery - as will trying to offload without a validator present. If there are too many gaps or errors in your record you are required to take a human observer, at additional cost (we're responsible for the costs of our own oversight). If you report that you landed 1000 fish you better unload 1000 fish. It's that simple.

Similar procedures could easily be used to keep politicians honest. Simply put, we need to outlaw in-camera lobbying.  If lobbyists and politicians insist on meeting around the 18th hole or down at the club, fine, just ensure that their discussions are recorded so they can be validated by auditors and directly tied and matched to corresponding elements of whatever policy, legislation or decisions are made.

It's not rocket science, it's political science.

Why not just vote for a party that is going to outlaw corporate welfare, pandering to the large companies.....maybe it is time we shook the political parties up and try another party....

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11 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Why not just vote for a party that is going to outlaw corporate welfare, pandering to the large companies.....maybe it is time we shook the political parties up and try another party....

Agreed! The best way to bust up the cozy and corrupt connections of government with business and industry is NOT to elect Liberal or Conservative governments. 

It does look like the Liberals claim of concern about people's jobs is insincere, a political ploy (not governance), opportunistic  and unfounded. The federal infrastructure projects will still exist so the Canadian workers'  jobs will still exist, just perhaps with different companies.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/criminal-prosecution-of-snc-lavalin-does-not-jeopardize-9-000-jobs-analyst-1.4328995

A criminal conviction in the SNC-Lavalin case could potentially mean a 10-year ban for the Montreal-based giant on bidding on federal infrastructure projects.

But Macklin said there is a skills shortage in the construction and infrastructure industry, so SNC-Lavalin’s workers would be in high demand.

“Without question those 9,000 jobs are needed right here on Canadian soil,” Macklin said.

Macklin explained that ReNew ranks the 100 biggest public infrastructure projects each year and that there are 15 to 18 companies that are similarly large players to SNC-Lavalin. They each work on 20 or more top-100 projects at any given time.

Edited by jacee

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1 hour ago, jacee said:

Agreed! The best way to bust up the cozy and corrupt connections of government with business and industry is NOT to elect Liberal or Conservative governments. 

How many times have we heard that before?  I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

How many times have we heard that before?  I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Starting with minority government ... :)

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Just outlaw in-camera lobbying. 

But as I've said elsewhere if this was actually proposed I have little doubt the usual suspects that rail against corruption and opacity in our governance will soon be parroting their betters who will be arguing that taking too much action against corruption will be too damaging to our economy. The arguments will sound familiar; if we don't peddle arms to dictators or sell fossil fuels someone else will - if we can't be corrupt on occasion you can kiss the quality of life we've become accustomed to goodbye. 

One of the main arguments for DPA's are that we need them because our competitors on the global cat-walk have them.  The real scandal surrounding these things is that they even exist and indicate to me that the race to the bottom is in total free fall and accelerating towards terminal velocity.

I suspect outlawing in-camera lobbying would put such a burden on the powerful and wealthy that it would one day be viewed as being on par with the Magna Carta in terms of how it realigned the relationship between the governed and those who govern them.

    

Edited by eyeball

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15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Why not just vote for a party that is going to outlaw corporate welfare, pandering to the large companies.....maybe it is time we shook the political parties up and try another party....

Well, you see, out here in the hinterlands of the colony, we HAVE tried another party.  You realize of course that the grand daddy of them all, Tommy the Commie Douglas after a lifetime of Marxist philosophy beggaring the economy and growth of Saskatchewan for a half century sat on the Board of Directors of Husky Oil????   Don't even get me started on the scams that MB and SK NDP governments have done in overseas deals where 5% or more was paid to offshore consultants for eventual benefit of the party faithful - or the...ah, heck, I could go on for weeks on this topic.

Sadly, the business of NOT pandering to business or any other special interest is part of basic conservative philosophy - and sure as hell as far away from Liberal structure as you can get - but we really don't have any conservatives in the Conservative parties.  Going further left just gives you governments that ultimately mimic the incredible success of the USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.    Is THAT what you want for Canada???

Edited by cannuck

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27 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

If you were to monitor pols like that, the business would be outsourced to someone not on camera and all you’d see would be mind-numbing platitudes. 

The same thing we see now.  You're happy with that?

 

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Funny, but influence peddling is already illegal in many countries, including Canada, but we openly allow and never bother to police the results of lobbying.

IMHO, if you decide to become a politician, EVERYTHING you do and say should be open to constant and unrestricted oversight by literally everyone.   We also should elimnate lobbying altogether and tighten up dramatically influence peddling law, breach of trust law and conflict of interest law and enforce the hell out of them.

As much as you and I may come at this from polar political opposite directions, reality of good government lies on some common ground in the middle.  I will repeat (and will forever) the very defining test of good legislation and regulation is what I was told by Sir Roger Douglas on the subject.  He stated that they did what they did legislatively and in regulation to recover from economic disaster in New Zealand to these four so important words:   "We simply removed privilege".  You will note that he is from a different part of politics and there is/was no partisan or other qualification to what he said, AND WHAT HE DID.

Edited by cannuck
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3 hours ago, cannuck said:

Funny, but influence peddling is already illegal in many countries, including Canada, but we openly allow and never bother to police the results of lobbying.

That's because we've chosen to believe the magic words politicians say over a holy book when they're being sworn in - we quite literally rely on a politician's fear of the consequences of the Almighty monitoring them so why should our having a look-see be of any concern?

 

Quote

 

IMHO, if you decide to become a politician, EVERYTHING you do and say should be open to constant and unrestricted oversight by literally everyone.

 

No. This was the fear fishermen had when told they had to install cameras on their boats.  Most fishermen crap in a bucket out on deck so you can see the problem clearly enough.  They had to come up with solutions to protect privacy while preventing secrecy.  The solution after everyone calmed down and actually started thinking about how to do this on the deck of a boat was that the cameras only start recording when the hydraulics that are used to haul gear are engaged.  Simple. 

The solution for maintaining the privacy of lobbyists and politicians would be something like an app on a phone or tablet or something that turns recorders on whenever registered lobbyists are in close proximity with politicians and other senior civil servants.  The only time everything they say needs to be monitored is when they're actually communicating with one another.

Anyone caught trying to get around the system would need to be attended by human observers, at their cost.   

 

Quote

We also should elimnate lobbying altogether.

People said we should eliminate salmon fishermen.  After throwing thousands of people and hundreds of business' out of work on the coast BC's richest billionaire wound up controlling some 40% of the quota.

Problem solved?    I don't think so.

Edited by eyeball
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10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

People said we should eliminate salmon fishermen.  After throwing thousands of people and hundreds of business' out of work on the coast BC's richest billionaire wound up controlling some 40% of the quota.

Problem solved?    I don't think so.

Dude, give yourself some credit!!!!   Eliminating any kind of sustainable fishing would be equivalent of eliminating farming.   You are talking about our food supply - one of the most important things for the country and the economy to have.

Lobbyists, on the other hand, contribute nothing but privilege for their sponsors to tilt what should be level playing fields of marketplaces and other advantages to screw the world out of $$$$$$$$.   Hardly productive and contributory.   Also, ever lobbyist is a potential worker who is removed from the possibility of contributing to the country and the economy instead of their boss.

I agree with your comments of at least letting politicos take a dump in private - as long as they are doing so without communicating with the outside world.  So, give them a private home, and when they are in it, keep it 100% off line.   Every other minute of their life should be subject to full transparency.

As I was trying to explain: the business of government should be to govern = create a dead level playing field for everyone, legislate such, regulate and enforce.   99% of what government does now is grant privilege in a world of rule-by-special interest.  IMHO, the ultimate test of ANY legislation, regulation or enforcement is does it grant anyone any special privilege?   If so, it is simply not right (please note this very much applies to virtually EVERYTHING the current government and cabinet does - especially dealing with SNC).

Edited by cannuck

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6 hours ago, cannuck said:

Well, you see, out here in the hinterlands of the colony, we HAVE tried another party.  You realize of course that the grand daddy of them all, Tommy the Commie Douglas after a lifetime of Marxist philosophy beggaring the economy and growth of Saskatchewan for a half century sat on the Board of Directors of Husky Oil????   Don't even get me started on the scams that MB and SK NDP governments have done in overseas deals where 5% or more was paid to offshore consultants for eventual benefit of the party faithful - or the...ah, heck, I could go on for weeks on this topic.

Sadly, the business of NOT pandering to business or any other special interest is part of basic conservative philosophy - and sure as hell as far away from Liberal structure as you can get - but we really don't have any conservatives in the Conservative parties.  Going further left just gives you governments that ultimately mimic the incredible success of the USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.    Is THAT what you want for Canada???

Don't get me wrong I am not pushing anyone towards the communist party, or the Rhino party etc etc.....but there is a large number that seem to be filling the middle ground in , more right than left.....who recently plugged into the federal politics....the more I here about all these back room deals and how corrupt our government is, the more I like the fringe parties, although I have not done much research on mad max people are starting to look at these types of parties.

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