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August1991

Apollo 11 (3 quick lines)

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The background music is irritating, awful. (Apparently, the "music" is based on systems available in 1969. Whatever... )

OTOH, this movie/documentary includes sound clips of the guys talking while behind the moon, and video clips of people. I saw LBJ with long hair, Johnny Carson, Howard Cosell (?). Spiro Agnew. Heck, there's even a reference to Teddy Kennedy.

The movie shows mostly male, American/white nerds. I have a different view of life.

 

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In the last few days of the European theatre of WW2, the Nazis rushed towards west to surrender US for a reason: The systems of US and Nazi were both based on the same ground----racialism. The difference is Nazi was over in 1945 but in some states of USA black students still had no right to share the same school with white kids in 1969. Nobody with normal IQ would expect there were colors in a agency like NASA.

Besides, the core of the so-called American white nerds were Germans, or exactly former Nazis. They did their job well both technologically and politically. The later means making US to spend lavishly on sending talking monkeys on moon to make Americans cheering up like monkeys who have sucked marijuana, meanwhile the fundamental of US industrial power like auto industry was overtaken by Germany and Japan which will result the whole empire like a skyscraper built on sand.

If Hitler knew what they would achieve, he would have added them Golden Oak Leaves on the Iron Crosses which they had already earned for using slave labor to build the vengeance rockets for Hitler...

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Von Braun and Himmler hated each other's guts.

Himmler was always arresting him for lack of loyalty and other mundane reasons.

Von Braun, like many lower rank Nazis, didn't have much in the way of choices once the Nazis were in total power.

Also, Von Braun & crew raced for the Americans because they'd be treated better...pretty simple. The Third Reich had practiced unrestricted total war in the East and now it was time to pay the piper. 

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...and judging by how many V-1s and V-2s went ballistic or exploded in midair...slave labour isn't your best choice when building highly technical rockets.

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On 3/13/2019 at 8:10 PM, August1991 said:

The background music is irritating, awful. (Apparently, the "music" is based on systems available in 1969. Whatever... )

OTOH, this movie/documentary includes sound clips of the guys talking while behind the moon, and video clips of people. I saw LBJ with long hair, Johnny Carson, Howard Cosell (?). Spiro Agnew. Heck, there's even a reference to Teddy Kennedy.

The movie shows mostly male, American/white nerds. I have a different view of life.

 

 

A large swath of the planet's population still thinks we never went there. Can't even imagine how it's done.

I prefer the nerds.

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1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

Von Braun and Himmler hated each other's guts.

Himmler was always arresting him for lack of loyalty and other mundane reasons.

Von Braun, like many lower rank Nazis, didn't have much in the way of choices once the Nazis were in total power.

Also, Von Braun & crew raced for the Americans because they'd be treated better...pretty simple. The Third Reich had practiced unrestricted total war in the East and now it was time to pay the piper. 

When I joked that Hitler would add golden oak leave on Von Braun's already earned iron cross, I didn't know he did have 2 of such things....one in 1943 another in 1944

german-wwii-knights-cross-of-the-war-mer

 

The relationship between Hitler and Von Braun:

Wernher von Braun

Quote

Following von Braun's July 7, 1943 presentation of a color movie showing an A-4 taking off, Hitler was so enthusiastic that he personally made von Braun a professor shortly thereafter.[34] In Germany at this time, this was an exceptional promotion for an engineer who was only 31 years old.

As of his arrest,

Quote

Von Braun had been under SD surveillance since October 1943. A report stated that he and his colleagues Riedel and Gröttrup were said to have expressed regret at an engineer's house one evening that they were not working on a spaceship and that they felt the war was not going well; this was considered a "defeatist" attitude. 

It's nothing related with Hitler. On the other hand, Hitler saved his neck:

Quote

Through the Abwehr in Berlin, Dornberger obtained von Braun's conditional release and Albert Speer, Reichsminister for Munitions and War Production, persuaded Hitler to reinstate von Braun so that the V-2 program could continue[12]:38–40 or turn into a "V-4 program" which in their view would be impossible without von Braun's leadership.[50] In his memoirs, Speer states Hitler had finally conceded that von Braun was to be "protected from all prosecution as long as he is indispensable, difficult though the general consequences arising from the situation."

Beside, the alleged arrest probably came from Von Braun's tale. If you believed all these tales of these good Nazis', you would think Hitler was a great leader since he could accommodate so many Hitler haters under his command... LOL

If the tale was true, Von Braun earned 2 iron crosses meanwhile after under arrest in 1943? 

 

Edited by xul

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1 minute ago, xul said:

When I joked that Hitler would add golden oak leave on Von Braun's already earned iron cross, I didn't know he did have 2 of such things....one in 1943 another in 1944

german-wwii-knights-cross-of-the-war-mer

 

The relationship between Hitler and Von Braun:

Wernher von Braun

As of his arrest,

It's nothing related with Hitler. On the other hand, Hitler saved his neck:

Beside, the alleged arrest probably came from Von Braun's tale. If you believed all these tales of these good Nazis', you would think Hitler was a great leader since he could accommodate so many Hitler haters under his command... LOL

 

Hitler was well aware of his value. Himmler actually hated his guts.

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2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Hitler was well aware of his value. Himmler actually hated his guts.

Just see the timing:

In July 1943, he was promoted to a professor by Hitler himself.

In October 1943, he was arrested by his direct SS boss Hans Kammler, for saying the war wasn't going well.

I guess it was just because of jealousy. His boss didn't want Von Braun to become Hitler's new pet boy to bypass him, so he got him in the first place.

Albert Speer was once Hilter's architect pet boy. He was promoted into Hitler's inner circle from nowhere by Hitler himself. The other Nazi leaders just didn't want another pet boy over taking them.

Edited by xul

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9 minutes ago, xul said:

Just see the timing:

July 1943, he was promoted to a professor by Hitler himself.

October 1943, he was arrested by his direct SS boss Hans Kammler, for saying the war wasn't going well.

I guess it was just because of jealousy. His boss didn't want Von Braun to become Hitler's new pet boy to bypass him, so he got him in the first place.

Albert Speer was once Hilter's architect pet boy. He was promoted into Hitler's inner circle from nowhere by Hitler himself. The other Nazi leaders just didn't want another pet boy taking over them.

 

Von Braun was barely out of high school when the Nazis took power. His boyhood interest in rocketry had him form a rocketry club that enjoyed some successes which the Nazis took note of. They then mandated that any further use of rockets in the New Germany required a Nazi Party membership. He took the step...pretty unaware what he was in for. Not to excuse him for what he did do...but often folks claim he did more than he actually did. You can bet he'd have preferred proper workers over at Heinkel or Dornier to help build rockets rather than Russian POWs, Jews and other assorted wretches. 

Edited by DogOnPorch

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9 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Von Braun was barely out of high school when the Nazis took power. His boyhood interest in rocketry had him form a rocketry club that enjoyed some successes which the Nazis took note of. They then mandated that any further use of rockets in the New Germany required a Nazi Party membership. He took the step...pretty unaware what he was in for. Not to excuse him for what he did do...but often folks claim he did more than he actually did. You can bet he'd have preferred proper workers over at Heinkel or Dornier to help build rockets rather than Russian POWs, Jews and other assorted wretches. 

If he hated Hitler and Nazism, he wouldn't join Nazi just for the promotion of his career. This is my point.

Good Nazis are still Nazis. The difference is just like Canadian liberal boss vs conservative boss:

PM Justin Trudeau: "Dear President Obama, I regrettably inform you that I have to withdraw Canadian troops from Afghanistan. You know since Canada is a peace loving country, we don't want having blood on our hands. But don't worry, I'll set up a new program to train Afghan army officers in Canada to help you to win the unwinnable war.....in short, train Muslim to kill Muslim instead of killing them by our own hands....that's the difference between my policy and my predecessor's.....:lol::("

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If there is someone who think these "male, white" guys did extraordinary things in their era thus are the proof of their racial superiority, he has misunderstood the history.

The fact is, just within 5 decades, these spendthrifts had squandered over the fortune which their forefathers had accumulated for hundreds years via enslaving other race and plundering on other nations. Then, since they could no longer use slave labors to do the low paying jobs, they out sourced the jobs to foreign countries to continue their extravagant lifestyle thus crippled their country's economy and made themselves from the world biggest creditor to biggest debtor. Their so-called achievements like lunar rockets or F-35, are no better than ancient Chinese emperor's Great Wall. All these things are just expensive splendid engineering success but also economic failure, which will cripple a country's economy and eventually bring the whole empire down.

It's just like in 1941 and 1942,  if some German thought the Nazi's war "success" was the proof of their racial superiority, he was seriously mistaken. Now from history we all have learnt that Hitler's "success" just over stretched German military and economic power, and eventually caused Nazi Germany's downfall.

 

I read from some youtuber's comment that Hitler was actually dictating his Stalingrad speech to his secretary at the beginning of the movie. I really love the humor of these movie makers.:lol:

 

Edited by xul

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10 hours ago, xul said:

If he hated Hitler and Nazism, he wouldn't join Nazi just for the promotion of his career. This is my point.

 

 

Shows how little you understand what was going-on in Nazi Germany.

Before 1939, most Germans were very impressed with the Nazis. Not as a party of war and death...but as the folks who pulled Germany out of the Depression and said FU to France and its war payments.

 

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The first real Moon Shot...

Not sexy enough for a movie, I guess...

 

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18 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Shows how little you understand what was going-on in Nazi Germany.

 

Indeed...also shows little understanding of the German impact on U.S. population:

 

300px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries

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4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Indeed...also shows little understanding of the German impact on U.S. population:

 

 

The Union Army of the Potomac was majority German volunteers for most of its existence.

 

That said: there's some hint that the SLS will no longer get the funding it needs for a variety of reasons. Many of them having to do with Elon's great successes.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/03/what-is-going-on-with-nasas-space-launch-system-rocket/

But there are dangers to putting all the eggs into one basket...as the Shuttle taught us.

 

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5 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Shows how little you understand what was going-on in Nazi Germany.

Before 1939, most Germans were very impressed with the Nazis. Not as a party of war and death...but as the folks who pulled Germany out of the Depression and said FU to France and its war payments.

 

Even before the last day of Hitler's millennium reich, most Germans were not Nazis, that's the fact. Though I'm sure most of them wanted Germany to win the war even if which meant Nazi would rule Europe. But there is still some significant difference between being a Nazi and being a German who wanted Nazi Germany to win.

To the Germans who wanted to overthrow the result of ww1, it wasn't necessary to embrace Nazism. In Guderian's  Erinnerungen eines Soldaten / Panzer Leader, he described how he dealt with Hitler's order which obviously violated the Geneva Convention:

Quote

Shortly before the opening of hostilities the OKW sent an order direct to all corps and divisions concerning the treatment that was to be given to the civilian population and to prisoners of war in Russia. It specified that in the event of excesses being committed against civilians or prisoners, the responsible soldier was not automatically to be tried and be taken at the discretion of the man’s immediate unit commander. This order was obviously likely to have the most unfortunate effect on the preservation of discipline. The Commander-in-Chief of the Army had apparently realised this himself, for an appendix to the order, signed by Field-Marshal von Brauchitsch, stated that the order would only be carried out if there was no danger of discipline suffering thereby. Since both I and my corps commanders were immediately convinced that discipline must suffer if the order were published, I forbade its forwarding to the divisions and ordered that it be returned to Berlin. This order, which was to play an important part in the post-war trials of German generals by our former enemies, was consequently never carried out in my Panzer Group. At the time I dutifully informed the Commander-in-Chief of the Army Group that I was not publishing or obeying this order.

The equally notorious, so-called ‘Commissar Order’ never even reached my Panzer Group. No doubt Army Group Centre had already decided not to forward it. Therefore the ‘Commissar Order’ was never carried out by my troops either.

So even if you were a German general, you still could refuse to execute Nazi's order if it obviously violated your moral judgement. The only consequence was, Guderian ended up with the rank of colonel general, but Rommel and Manstein who were more comfortable embracing Nazi ideology made field marshals.

Of course, after Nazi was defeated, Manstein made a prisoner for war crimes by Nerumberg Trail. Guderian didn't. Some sort of No Gain No Pain....LOL:P

Edited by xul

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2 minutes ago, xul said:

Even before the last day of Hitler's millennium reich, most German wasn't Nazis, that's the fact.

To the Germans who wanted to overthrow the result of ww1, it wasn't necessary to embrace Nazism. In Guderian's  Erinnerungen eines Soldaten / Panzer Leader, he described how he dealt with Hitler's order which obviously violated the Geneva Convention:

So even if you were a German general, you still could refuse to execute Nazi's order if it obviously violated your moral judgement. The only consequence was, Guderian ended up with the rank of colonel general, but Rommel and Manstein who were more comfortable embracing Nazi ideology made field marshals.

Of course, after Nazi was defeated, Manstein made a prisoner for war crimes by Nerumberg Trail. Guderian didn't. Some sort of No Gain No Pain....LOL:P

 

Arguably Germany's greatest general, Guderian was fired after Moscow...then given a few silly jobs that held no real power like Inspector General of Armored Forces. But, the Allies refrained from hanging him post WW2. So they must have figured he was somewhat honorable. They were certainly in a ropy enough mood...

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2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Arguably Germany's greatest general, Guderian was fired after Moscow...then given a few silly jobs that held no real power like Inspector General of Armored Forces. But, the Allies refrained from hanging him post WW2. So they must have figured he was somewhat honorable. They were certainly in a ropy enough mood...

In 1944, he was appointed Chief of Staff of the Army by Hitler after the failure of July 20 Plot, succeeding General Zeitzler. He hold the position until shortly before the last month of the Third Reich, so he was able to meet Hitler everyday during the last year of Hitler's life. If someone who wants to learn the detailed Hitler's personality, Guderian's memo is more valuable than Meistain's, who as a army group commander, only occasionally met Hitler.

To generals, comparing to Stalin, Hitler wasn't a bad boss. On the last day with Hitler, Guderian and Hitler shouted each other before other generals. Hitler only asked him to have 6 weeks leave for his heart disease---a very polite way to relieve a subordinate. And this wasn't the only time he shouted at Hitler. There were other occasions he and Hitler quarreled so loud that Hitler's adjutant had to come in and ask them if they wanted to shut the window since everyone outside could hear them. 

Hitler didn't kill everyone who refused to joint Nazi or disagreed with him. Of course he also didn't promote them. Guderian had served as Hitler's Chief of Staff of the Army for nearly a year without getting any medal from Hitler for being honest to him. Guderian's successor, General Krabs, hold the position for only a month, but Hitler added a Oak Leaver over his Iron Cross for being his yes-man and blind follower.....the general's last following action was to commit suicide in that bunker after his Fuhrer...:(:P 

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15 minutes ago, xul said:

In 1944, he was appointed Chief of Staff of the Army by Hitler after the failure of July 20 Plot, succeeding General Zeitzler. He hold the position until shortly before the last month of the Third Reich, so he was able to meet Hitler everyday during the last year of Hitler's life. If someone who wants to learn the detailed Hitler's personality, Guderian's memo is more valuable than Meistain's, who as a army group commander, only occasionally met Hitler.

To generals, comparing to Stalin, Hitler wasn't a bad boss. On the last day with Hitler, Guderian and Hitler shouted each other before other generals. Hitler only asked him to have 6 weeks leave for his heart disease---a very polite way to relieve a subordinate. And this wasn't the only time he shouted at Hitler. There were other occasions he and Hitler quarreled so loud that Hitler's adjutant had to come in and ask them if they wanted to shut the window since everyone outside could hear them. 

Hitler didn't kill everyone who refused to joint Nazi or disagreed with him. Of course he also didn't promote them. Guderian had served as Hitler's Chief of Staff of the Army for nearly a year without getting any medal from Hitler for being honest to him. Guderian's successor, General Krabs, hold the position for only a month, but Hitler added a Oak Leaver over his Iron Cross for being his yes-man and blind follower.....the general's last following action was to commit suicide in that bunker after his Fuhrer...:(:P 

 

Indeed. Guderian was one of the few people in the Reich who could talk down to Hitler and live. Their shouting matches were well known. He did participate in the kangaroo courts that followed the Plot which I think was his greatest dishonor...but really...he didn't have a choice. They would have "Rommeled" him as well.

But, back to Apollo.

Von Braun was essential to the early US space program. But it was actually a Canadian that figured out the best way to get to the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Chamberlin

Also...the face in the dictionary next to the term "Brain Drain". A Canadian problem of the time....and still is to a certain degree.

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On 3/23/2019 at 1:50 PM, xul said:

In the last few days of the European theatre of WW2, the Nazis rushed towards west to surrender US for a reason: The systems of US and Nazi were both based on the same ground----racialism. The difference is Nazi was over in 1945 but in some states of USA black students still had no right to share the same school with white kids in 1969. Nobody with normal IQ would expect there were colors in a agency like NASA.

Besides, the core of the so-called American white nerds were Germans, or exactly former Nazis. They did their job well both technologically and politically. The later means making US to spend lavishly on sending talking monkeys on moon to make Americans cheering up like monkeys who have sucked marijuana, meanwhile the fundamental of US industrial power like auto industry was overtaken by Germany and Japan which will result the whole empire like a skyscraper built on sand.

If Hitler knew what they would achieve, he would have added them Golden Oak Leaves on the Iron Crosses which they had already earned for using slave labor to build the vengeance rockets for Hitler...

Huh?

Go back 70 years (2 generations) in my daughter's family, and you meet someone who was illiterate. (My daughter can take a derivative.)

My own great-grandmother was born on a small island in the Atlantic Ocean and had at most 6 years of schooling. She could sign her name. More often, there was an X to indicate a marriage contract. Now, go back 1000 years (about 30 generations). How many of your ancestors were literate?

======

In the past 1000 years or so - aside from virus protection, there has been no fundamental change in the genetic structure of humans.

Heck, a human baby/embryo of 50,000 years ago, brought to the present, could use a mouse and communicate as I am doing now.

BTW, the gene for blue eyes is about 20,000 years old.

 

Edited by August1991

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On 3/24/2019 at 1:09 PM, DogOnPorch said:

Von Braun was essential to the early US space program. But it was actually a Canadian that figured out the best way to get to the Moon.

....

Sorry, wrong. Von Braun figured how to put the weight/payload into space - enough for a trip to the moon in a single mission.

Stages, keeping fuel cold, stabilizing jets to ensure nothing flew apart.

=====

These guys did all the calculations with slide rules. They had no reliable sensors.

I'm still amazed. I would have predicted Apollo 13 for most missions. But these guys were mission/project obsessed.

Is life a mission? 

 

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On 3/24/2019 at 12:47 PM, xul said:

....

To generals, comparing to Stalin, Hitler wasn't a bad boss. On the last day with Hitler, Guderian and Hitler shouted each other before other generals. ..

...

xul, I have given some thought to this.

Hitler and Stalin and Napoleon were psychopaths.

A civilized society creates a method to ensure that if such people have the power of the State, they are limited.

As my PM once said: "create counterweights". 

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On 4/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, August1991 said:

Sorry, wrong. Von Braun figured how to put the weight/payload into space - enough for a trip to the moon in a single mission.

Stages, keeping fuel cold, stabilizing jets to ensure nothing flew apart.

=====

These guys did all the calculations with slide rules. They had no reliable sensors.

I'm still amazed. I would have predicted Apollo 13 for most missions. But these guys were mission/project obsessed.

Is life a mission? 

 

 

What? Von Braun wasn't essential? Think again...

The Saturn V is his...and it's the Pyramids of our times. It didn't just happen. His Huntsville team designed and built that beast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V

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On 3/24/2019 at 1:09 PM, DogOnPorch said:

He did participate in the kangaroo courts that followed the Plot which I think was his greatest dishonor...but really...he didn't have a choice. They would have "Rommeled" him as well.

I think the old ww1German generals like Guderian and Rundstedt were stuck on Rule of Law. After all, Hitler was a legitimate ruler of Germany then. His party won the 1933 election, and he was empowered as the Chancellor via legitimate process. Guderian and Rundstedt would make model citizens of Canada if they were Canadian....

Quote

But, back to Apollo.

Von Braun was essential to the early US space program. But it was actually a Canadian that figured out the best way to get to the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Chamberlin

Also...the face in the dictionary next to the term "Brain Drain". A Canadian problem of the time....and still is to a certain degree.

Most people don't know, the success of most modern areospace and aviation projects reflects the economic and industrial strength of a nation rather than how intelligent the engineers and scientists who work on the projects.

For example: 

India is capable to lunch lunar rocket and sent something to the surface of the Moon but Canada isn't. It's nothing about Indians brown ass' gene is superior than Canadian white ass gene. It just reflects the rise of Indian economic and industrial power and the fall of Canadian economic and industrial power.

Honestly, US should still take the most credits of the success of Appolo Program. If Von Brauwn fled to South America like most of Nazis, US would still send men to the Moon, might have a few years of delay, meanwhile he would rot in some  ranch and his name would be forgotten.  

Edited by xul

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On 4/1/2019 at 10:46 PM, August1991 said:

xul, I have given some thought to this.

Hitler and Stalin and Napoleon were psychopaths.

Hitler was merely a patient of depression anxiety. He was a ww1 veteran and probably got the problem during an enemy chemical attack.

Many years ago, when I read the books of ww2 and memos of those German generals, I wondered why Hitler made so many bizarre decisions as if he lost the sense of seriousness of the situation  of the war. I had thought he might be a psychopath until a couple of months ago when my friend's wife was hospitalized due to some serious disease. I called him and told him "try to keep her in optimistic mood." 

"She is more optimistic than me," my friend replied. "The doctors give ICU patients some drugs so they all are optimistic."

That night when I randomly picked up a ww2 book, I suddenly realized what happened to Hitler. Methamphetamine, of course. Methamphetamine was widely used to treat depression and doctors didn't know its side effects then. So Hitler's doctors naturally used it on their Fuhrer to treat his depression. When the war went wrong, Hitler went to his doctor:"The dose of drug is no longer effective. I feet bad again" The doctors didn't know Hitler's feeling was normal because Dr. Goebbels told them the war was going well, so they injected more methamphetamine into Hitler's blood to treat his "depression" and kept him always optimistic about the war.

As of Stalin, he was a cruel man but not a psychopath, so was Chairman Mao. They did kill and destroy, but they did these for purpose. For example:

Hitler breaks into a store, then burns it and kills its Jewish owner for no reason. He is a psychopath.

Stalin breaks into a store for stealing money, then he burns up the store and kills its owner for covering up his crime. He was a criminal and cruel man, but not a psychopath. He was perfectly sane when he did these.

Quote

A civilized society creates a method to ensure that if such people have the power of the State, they are limited.

As my PM once said: "create counterweights". 

If engineers put tons of counterweights in the front part of a Boeing 737 max, it will no longer need MCAS and will no longer be problematic. But they will not do this because the weights may lower fuel efficiency so the plane won't sell.

Besides, German was once a civilized society but it didn't prevent Nazi rose to power. If you think Gemany had not been civilized long enough then, just see France:

Vichy France

Quote

After being appointed Premier by President Albert Lebrun, Marshal Pétain's cabinet agreed to end the war and signed an Armistice with Germany on 22 June 1940. On 10 July, the French Third Republic was dissolved, and Pétain established an authoritarian regime when the National Assembly granted him full powers. The Vichy government reversed many liberal policies and began tight supervision of the economy, calling for "National Regeneration", with central planning a key feature. Labour unions came under tight government control. Conservative Catholics became prominent and clerical input in schools resumed. Paris lost its avant-garde status in European art and culture. The media were tightly controlled and stressed virulent anti-Semitism, and, after June 1941, anti-Bolshevism.

 Marshal Petain didn't seize power with help from his army. He was empowered by legitimate representatives of French people to turn his country to a fascist state.

And there is Trump. He only got half of the voters as his hardcore supporters, he has behaved more like a Fuhrer than a normal president. If he did have achieved what he promised, I mean build great walls, consentration-camp immigrants, reboot economy, get jobs back, build huge military, make US a slave state again....it won't be hard to imagine how many Americans would become his new followers. And once he got over 90% votes in an election like Nazi did in November 1933,  what kind of counterweights could stop him to become a Fuhrer if he wanted to?

The economic situation in US nowadays is no way close to the situation of Germany or Russia in 1933 or.1918, but we all have seen how Americans has changed the civilization of their society. Once the situation was as worse as the one under which Nazi or Bolshevik rose in power, how far would they go to decivilize their system?  

Edited by xul

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