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Robert Greene

How Would You Reduce Islamic Extremism?

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

The issues around Islamic extremism.

 

Islam has been a violent entity since the days of Medina. It wasn't Kermit Roosevelt that made Islam into a religious version of Nazism.

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Just now, DogOnPorch said:

Islam has been a violent entity since the days of Medina.

So....you're delving even deeper into ancient history to bolster your argument that it would be impossible for an internationally coordinated legal peace process to understand modern history - living memory in fact?  Quelle surprise.

Quote

It wasn't Kermit Roosevelt that made Islam into a religious version of Nazism.

I also doubt he did it by himself.

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Just now, eyeball said:

So....you're delving even deeper into ancient history to bolster your argument that it would be impossible for an internationally coordinated legal peace process to understand modern history - living memory in fact?  Quelle surprise.

I also doubt he did it by himself.

 

You're free to think Islam didn't get where it is via the sword. You'd be wrong...

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1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're free to think Islam didn't get where it is via the sword. You'd be wrong...

I'm more likely to think extremism is a consequence of fearing communism.  I'm quite certain you'd be free to make that case to the commission if you'd like.  You would like to see that case made wouldn't you?

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2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm more likely to think extremism is a consequence of fearing communism.  I'm quite certain you'd be free to make that case to the commission if you'd like.  You would like to see that case made wouldn't you?

 

Your lack of understanding of Soviet activities in Iran during and post WW2 isn't my problem. You don't get to discount events just because you've never heard of them. But suffice to say that Stalin wanted Iran very bad and decided not to pull-out after WW2. This was the new UN's first crisis. But hey...guess what? Stalin suddenly just up n' died in 1953...causing all sorts of 'interesting times' in the Communist world. So the Tudeh Party threw their weight behind Mossadeq in hopes of a much closer relationship with whomever was the new boss in the USSR when the smoke cleared. When it became obvious to the Tudahs that ol' Mossadeq wasn't quite the comrade they thought he was, they tried to turn the Army's Coup in their favor...but failed. The Army wanted nothing to do with the Tudeh Party and pretty much called the shots in Parliament along with the young Shah.

I most certainly would prefer an Iran with the Royal Family back in place and proper rights restored to the people rather than the vicious Islamic theocracy that took over in 1979. But, whatever...

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1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

You don't get to discount events just because you've never heard of them.

I wouldn't be surprised to find there are lots of events I haven't heard of. And in a duly commissioned reconciliation process you wouldn't be allowed to embellish them.

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Just now, eyeball said:

I wouldn't be surprised to find there are lots of events I haven't heard of. And in a duly commissioned reconciliation process you wouldn't be allowed to embellish them.

 

The only reconciliation your Mullah chums deserve is a noose.

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2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The only reconciliation your Mullah chums deserve is a noose.

I'd rather hear that determination from you know what.  You don't think it could arrive at such a conclusion given your version?

Edited by eyeball

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Just now, eyeball said:

I'd rather hear that determination from you know what.  You don't think it could arrive at such a conclusion given your facts?

 

One: you're making little sense.

Two: what part of history other than the murderous Mullahs needs reconciliation? Iran is a big boy...wears big boy pants. Does it want a ribbon or trophy for having a Military Coup? Well, get in line, bud. There are a few coups ahead of you.

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1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

One: you're making little sense.

I'm making lots of sense. There can be no reduction of extremism without a peace process to help achieve it.

Quote

Two: I don't want a peace process. 

FIFY.

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Just now, eyeball said:

I'm making lots of sense. There can be no reduction of extremism without a peace process to help achieve it.

FIFY.

 

What peace process?

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8 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

What peace process?

Holy fuck are you ever stupid.  Not your Momma's boy I guess.

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Islam was created to destroy the West...pretty simple. There isn't a peace process involved other than capitulation. Many folks already are.

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Too boot...Islam and Nazism share many qualities. 

From hating Jews to the leadership's interest in young girls. It's quite remarkable and probably why the two made such compatible bedfellows during WW2.

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2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Holy fuck are you ever stupid.  Not your Momma's boy I guess.

I'm not trying to be rude, but use some discipline. Some people come here for debate. We need new ideas, because Islam seems to be getting worse. What strategies can be used to bring about reform in Muslim nations? Who will teach them about the dangers of extremism, while honoring their cultural and religious heritage? How can we convince them to separate their criminal justice system from Sharia law?

Edited by Robert Greene

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2 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

We need new ideas, because Islam seems to be getting worse.

While also getting better. 

Quote

 

The Islamic World Doesn't Need a Reformation

Why a Muslim John Locke would be much more useful than a Muslim Martin Luther

Luckily, efforts toward a Muslim Enlightenment have been present since the 19th century, in the form of the above-mentioned “Islamic modernism.” British historian Christopher de Bellaigue deftly demonstrated the achievements of this trend in his recent book, The Islamic Enlightenment. He also rightly noted that this promising era—also called “the liberal age” of Arabic thought by the late historian Albert Hourani—experienced a major step back in the 20th century with Western colonialism and the reactions it provoked. Then came a wave of “counter-Enlightenment,” which is the fundamentalist revival that created Islamism and jihadism.


 

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What strategies can be used to bring about reform in Muslim nations? Who will teach them about the dangers of extremism, while honoring their cultural and religious heritage?

The best contribution we could make to the process of Islamic enlightenment is to stop interfering in it.

 

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How can we convince them to separate their criminal justice system from Sharia law?

We might start by committing ourselves to a process of truth and reconciliation.

Edited by eyeball

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7 hours ago, eyeball said:

We might start by committing ourselves to a process of truth and reconciliation.

That's one angle to use use, but it's not broad enough. The west has a lot of hypocrisy in the middle east. A perfect example is our appeasement of Saudi Arabia, while we seem to Make Iran the scapegoat. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was a massive mistake, not only costing a few thousand American lives, but hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis. Some claim the Bush administration was worried about future oil supplies, but spending 6 Trillion fighting wars since 9/11 was a huge waste. Had they invested that money in renewable energy, and electric railroads, the United States would have become less reliant on middle east oil.

The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq gave the extremists the excuse to spread propaganda. There is a huge mural in Iran that says "Down with the USA", illustrating their hatred for western nations. While the US was at war, China was aggressively building up their infrastructure. They now have a massive competitive edge over the US. We got to remove our conflict of interest in the Middle east. 

My conservative friends might disagree, but i'd like to see more tourism between western countries and the Muslim world. Maybe we can grow to appreciate the beauty of their countries, instead of just isolating ourselves to fear and hatred. Tourism has diplomatic advantages. 

We need to lead by example, but we also the west needs to learn to become assertive. The liberal doctrine of blind tolerance or over-tolerance, has removed the checks and balances needed for reform. We have to get western Islamic institutions to take on leadership.

Edited by Robert Greene

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3 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

That's one angle to use use, but it's not broad enough. The west has a lot of hypocrisy in the middle east. A perfect example is our appeasement of Saudi Arabia, while we seem to Make Iran the scapegoat. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was a massive mistake, not only costing a few thousand American lives, but hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis. Some claim the Bush administration was worried about future oil supplies, but spending 6 Trillion fighting wars since 9/11 was a huge waste. Had they invested that money in renewable energy, and electric railroads, the United States would have become less reliant on middle east oil.

The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq gave the extremists the excuse to spread propaganda. There is a huge mural in Iran that says "Down with the USA", illustrating their hatred for western nations. While the US was at war, China was aggressively building up their infrastructure. They now have a massive competitive edge over the US. We got to remove our conflict of interest in the Middle east. 

My conservative friends might disagree, but i'd like to see more tourism between western countries and the Muslim world. Maybe we can grow to appreciate the beauty of their countries, instead of just isolating ourselves to fear and hatred. Tourism has diplomatic advantages. 

We need to lead by example, but we also the west needs to learn to become assertive. The liberal doctrine of blind tolerance or over-tolerance, has removed the checks and balances needed for reform. We have to get western Islamic institutions to take on leadership.

I don't think being assertive is the way to go. It's incumbent on the West to initiate not demand a process towards peace.  If liberals are guilty of a doctrine of blind tolerance or over-tolerance its due to not standing in the path or getting in the faces of extremists in the West who insist in denying and exacerbating relations between us and the Islamic world, i.e. selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. The biggest demonstration of Western hypocrisy bar none, is its tolerance and over-tolerance for authoritarian regimes, and there's nothing blind about this, we do it with our eyes wide open.  Don't look now but we are leading by example - autocracy has never had it better.

We need to get our own institutions back on track and our own house in order before we start lecturing Islam on what it needs to do.  The best example we could set would be to do this peacefully but if push comes to shove because less enlightened westerners insist on maintaining the status quo then so be it.  You know what they say about quenching the tree of liberty's thirst from time to time.

I'd love to see more tourism too, its what I do for a living.  People from all over the world stay in my home and I take them out on boats to see my region. It's the happiest industry I've ever worked in and you damn near can please everyone no matter how cranky they are. 

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5 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

We have to get western Islamic institutions to take on leadership.

I agree that it has to be Muslims themselves who lead the way in reducing Islamic extremism.

I don't believe this will happen any time soon, as the mainstream attitude in Islam is that Islamic extremism as nothing to do with them, so they have no need to address it.  And the Muslims who DO want to address it are often faced with death threats for suggesting there might be problems within Islam.

Also, we have many non-Muslims in the West who are also very vocal that Islam bears no responsibility for it's own extremism and keep on assuring Muslims that they do not need to address it and are outraged and scream "Islamophobia!" if anyone suggests otherwise.

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22 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Had he bothered providing a solution, himself, perhaps I'd be more keen on the OP's request. 

As for your T&R bull, you're free to think of Iranians as children incapable of their own action.

False. And you will simply call them a Nazi for suggesting anything,

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Also, we have many non-Muslims in the West who are also very vocal that Islam bears no responsibility for it's own extremism and keep on assuring Muslims that they do not need to address it and are outraged and scream "Islamophobia!" if anyone suggests otherwise.

Even if we got ride of terrorism, they still have to reform Sharia Law. Many would think that Malaysia is a moderate country. At least not as bad as Saudi Arabia and Iran. Well if you make one Small mistake in Malaysia, you could spend a few years in Prison. Not all regions are the same. If a Muslim drink beer in Kuala Lumpur, they will probably get off with warning. If they try it in another State, they can be sent to prison and caned.

They need to learn that Sharia law is not good for economic development and tourism. If they want to compete with Thailand for ecotourism, they better start to reform. This graphic illustrates the different punishments for apostasy. They still have the death penalty, for those who want to quit Islam.

17.jpg

Edited by Robert Greene

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On 3/26/2019 at 3:40 PM, eyeball said:

I'd build a time machine, go back to 1953 and kill the morons that were engineering Operation Ajax.

Failing that, well...it's kinda like climate change where adaptation is probably the only choice we've got left. 

But what if another bunch of morons decided to engineer Operation Ajax?

 

Here is a better idea: 

  • Bring with you all of the modern weapon designs,
  • Bring every battle plan and their dates,
  • Sell it to Hitler and that Japanese guy,
  • Get them to destroy America,
  • Make them give me Washington State

 

There you go..... no more morons to engineer Operation Ajax.

Edited by John Otis

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16 hours ago, Goddess said:

I agree that it has to be Muslims themselves who lead the way in reducing Islamic extremism.

Well, Christianity went through bloody wars and ended up coming to North America to create a new framework for tolerance.  I think North America will again be the cradle for religious reform for Islam.

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8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, Christianity went through bloody wars and ended up coming to North America to create a new framework for tolerance.  I think North America will again be the cradle for religious reform for Islam.

I bet the indigenous people would say something different. But then again they were not tolerant towards European invaders.

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20 hours ago, Goddess said:

I agree that it has to be Muslims themselves who lead the way in reducing Islamic extremism.

We still need to give them a reason to do so. We have a big onus on us as well.

 

Quote

I don't believe this will happen any time soon, as the mainstream attitude in Islam is that Islamic extremism as nothing to do with them, so they have no need to address it.  And the Muslims who DO want to address it are often faced with death threats for suggesting there might be problems within Islam.

Also, we have many non-Muslims in the West who are also very vocal that Islam bears no responsibility for it's own extremism and keep on assuring Muslims that they do not need to address it and are outraged and scream "Islamophobia!" if anyone suggests otherwise.

Your perception is every bit as screwy as the extreme Muslims you just described. You've chosen to equate and conflate understanding with support. Likewise you share the attitude that the West is faultless and bears no responsibility for helping to destabilize so many Muslim societies or any of the grievances or animosities stemming from that. 

Anyone who suggests our side is not without guilt is just as loathed as the moderate Muslim who suggests there are problems within Islam and for the very same reason. 

Edited by eyeball

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