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Time to Ban AirBNB - It's creating a housing crisis

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On 5/10/2019 at 3:50 PM, jacee said:

Do your own research.

I asked Eyeball as he would have more knowledge on that matter. 

 

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On 5/10/2019 at 6:17 PM, eyeball said:

Anyone else want to ban capitalism?

How about just regulating it?

Ok. HOW do you regulate something that flies so low under the radar? Regulation should have happened from the start when AirBnB came into existence.

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On 5/10/2019 at 3:46 PM, jacee said:

You have provided no evidence of that. 

Ban the predatory developers and realtors.

But what I do with my own rooms is not your business.

I have provided plenty of evidence  for it.   But I can throw it back at you and say 'go do your own research'.

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2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

I have provided plenty of evidence  for it.   But I can throw it back at you and say 'go do your own research'.

You claimed that Airbnb is causing shortages in long term rentals. I just asked for your evidence supporting that claim. You haven't provided any yet. 

Edited by jacee

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5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Ok. HOW do you regulate something that flies so low under the radar? Regulation should have happened from the start when AirBnB came into existence.

Get a better radar - better oversight of the economy in other words, and deep oversight in certain industries.  If the entire economy had been properly regulated before AirBnB came into existence it would have known how to behave properly in the first place.

How we regulate probably isn't as important as the question WHY we need to regulate in the first place.  By not properly addressing why we're left with forever approaching the most common economic problem, i.e. people that are left behind, dealt out of the game or pushed off the playing field, in a piecemeal manner. We spend inordinate amounts of time scratching our heads over how without any guidance stemming from having answered why.

We have a rather vague and therefore weak sense that why is to promote a more fair and just economy but...I'm sure you can also hear the usual suspects filling up with bile and penning opinions laced with lol's and references to Stalin as we speak.

This issue sure seems to push hard on buttons on all sides rich and poor alike.  I'd rather see it pushing hardest on governments myself because I think they're getting a massive free pass on having to do anything about the perennial problem of affordable housing by pretending like just about everyone else that its a brand new problem brought about by short term rentals that can be solved by simply banning them.  Like I said, its completely piecemeal and without any real reason other than short-term political expediency.

Edited by eyeball

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17 hours ago, jacee said:

You claimed that Airbnb is causing shortages in long term rentals. I just asked for your evidence supporting that claim. You haven't provided any yet. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/fairbnb-report-short-term-rentals-entire-homes-lost-1.4971332

Quote

A new report suggests 6,500 homes could be added to Toronto's housing market if the home-sharing platform Airbnb were to comply with proposed city rules on short-term rentals.

Those rules are under appeal, and currently, the city cannot enforce the rules until the appeal at the Local Planning Appeal Tribunal is heard. City council passed the rules in December 2017. 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-airbnb-housing-market-effect-1.5026028

Quote

Hundreds of landlords are still flouting the law almost a year after Vancouver introduced rules around short-term rentals, says a housing advocate who is unconvinced of the bylaw's clout.

City bylaws introduced  April 19 require hosts to obtain a business licence and state that a landlord can only rent out their principal residence, or, if the residence is already rented long term, the tenant may operate a short-term rental with the owner's permission.

The initiative was the city's response to short-term vacation rentals wreaking havoc with housing for long-term renters.

But Vancouver housing advocate Rohana Rezel, a candidate for council in the last municipal election, says a quick scan of 4,000 Vancouver units listed on the site showed at least 800 in clear violation of the bylaws.

https://www.governing.com/columns/public-money/gov-airbnb-affordable-housing.html

Quote

The report contends that the number of vacant and available apartments in New York City would increase by 10 percent if “commercial profiteer” listings -- listings that are booked several times per month and listed for at least three months per year by someone who advertises multiple apartments on Airbnb -- were returned to the rental market. Presumably, rents would drop by an offsetting amount, making for significantly more affordable shelter for low- and moderate-income families.

https://www.realtrends.com/blog/economist-warns-airbnb-rentals-impact-housing-crisis/

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/airbnb-draining-rental-housing-supply-in-canada-s-three-biggest-cities-study-1.3537868

https://globalnews.ca/video/4832491/airbnb-contributing-to-toronto-housing-crisis-report

That should be enough. If you need more evidence, I can easily put that here.

 

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3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Thank you. I still think your knee-jerk "ban Airbnb" response is not appropriate. It's important to assess where the problems really lie, and address that.  

Toronto, Vancouver and New York City, the most expensive and difficult cities for housing. And the most susceptible to predatory developers and realtors renting multiple STR purpose-bought or -built homes and units.

I think the suggestion of only allowing STR's for your principal residence is quite reasonable. Owner's with multiple listings in different locations certainly should be limited and regulated. It's tricky, though, because companies still  skirt around it by having multiple staff listed as 'hosts' on Airbnb.  I think the "commercial profiteer" label for them is appropriate.  

 

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56 minutes ago, jacee said:

Thank you. I still think your knee-jerk "ban Airbnb" response is not appropriate. It's important to assess where the problems really lie, and address that.  

Toronto, Vancouver and New York City, the most expensive and difficult cities for housing. And the most susceptible to predatory developers and realtors renting multiple STR purpose-bought or -built homes and units.

I think the suggestion of only allowing STR's for your principal residence is quite reasonable. Owner's with multiple listings in different locations certainly should be limited and regulated. It's tricky, though, because companies still  skirt around it by having multiple staff listed as 'hosts' on Airbnb.  I think the "commercial profiteer" label for them is appropriate.  

 

This is also an issue where residential and commercial is mixed within a residential building. Meaning different building codes and even getting into zoning issues.  Residential is just that ,, residential. Which does not include hotels, or bed and breakfasts. 

Also these problems I have stated go back to 2015. So if it was a problem then, it's a bigger problem now.  So even if regulation comes in, HOW would that be applied to these places? And how would enforcement of such regulations take place?  I am all for regulation here too, but that means a city is going to need to spend time and money on making new regulations and then money and time and labour on enforcing.

 

 

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2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

This is also an issue where residential and commercial is mixed within a residential building. Meaning different building codes and even getting into zoning issues.  Residential is just that ,, residential. Which does not include hotels, or bed and breakfasts. 

Also these problems I have stated go back to 2015. So if it was a problem then, it's a bigger problem now.  So even if regulation comes in, HOW would that be applied to these places? And how would enforcement of such regulations take place?  I am all for regulation here too, but that means a city is going to need to spend time and money on making new regulations and then money and time and labour on enforcing.

I can't answer those questions. It may be different in each municipality. Ask your municipality how they will regulate and enforce. Complaints from nearby residents play a large role up to now. 

Keep in mind that cities are also  benefiting from drawing more people - business and holiday visitors who spend money in communities - so cities are not trying to ban Airbnb, just regulate it to reduce residents' complaints. MOST complaints relate to the commercial privateers, eg condo buildings with too many STR units, and too many complaints from other residents.

Edited by jacee

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1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

I am all for regulation here too, but that means a city is going to need to spend time and money on making new regulations and then money and time and labour on enforcing.

Deeper oversight is the key but especially of the process of coming up with regulations.  There will be lobbyists to keep an eye on and if UBER is anything to go by there will be public officials with economic/financial links to the industry being regulated - take councillors who own multiple very expensive taxi licences for example.  I have a hard time imagining there aren't financial linkages between developers/realtors/and elected officials in the bigger cities mentioned above.  No doubt money launderers in the real estate industry are up to their eyeballs in this too.

I've seen this playbook before where moral panic, official scrambling and the overhaul of an industry resulted in lots of little people being pushed out and the biggest players come out controlling even more opportunity than they had before.

So what does or could deep oversight come to mean?  How about home inspections, CCTV coupled with AI, host/resident compliance software, biometrically keyed entryways...we have home inspectors and host compliance software where I live.  I don't buy the excuse that municipal governments don't have the means to regulate this, I suspect many simply don't want to. 

Red pill or Blue?    

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ghost-hotel-byward-market-crime-1.5143891

The other side of this that many are not seeing, and I saw this happening in Toronto when I was there. A lot of crime related to AirBnB ghost hotels. There was a shooting incident in another AirBnB only a block from where I was staying. Another relating in a death in another part of town in another AirBnB.

Quote

It's really frustrating that the neighbours are the ones who have to monitor the situation and try to enforce some sort of decent behaviour," resident Kate Laing said.

 

"The Airbnb owners make a lot of profit on their properties, and yet it's the city who is paying the money to have the police and bylaw attend on a regular basis."

Laing, who has lived on St. Andrew Street for 21 years, said she's noticed a spike in crime since the short-term rentals moved in.

and

Quote

She described another incident in late April in which neighbours called bylaw because of all the parking violations near one of the buildings. That led to an investigation into prostitution, Laing said.

"The only people going into the property were single men going in, in rotation."

Quote

Crime up near rentals

Coun. Mathieu Fleury, whose Rideau-Vanier ward includes St. Andrew Street, confirmed the city has been seeing an increase in crime around short-term rental properties, particularly in the Lowertown/ByWard Market area.

He said of the about 2,000 units for rent on Airbnb in Ottawa, 600 of them are in those neighbourhoods.

"We're seeing a lot of neighbourhood complaints relating to noise, most recently relating to prostitution and drugs," Fleury said.

 

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We're seeing a lot of neighbourhood complaints relating to noise,

Then do something about it.  Anyone have a rooster for a neighbour?  The one next door to us started crowing at 4:00 this morning, days are getting longer I suppose. The regional district says its hands are tied - apparently we can't have a noise bylaw because we don't have a bylaw enforcement officer.  The rooster and chickens are free range and routinely wander into our yard.  At least 20 chickens have been killed by neighbourhood dogs in the last year, we have a couple piles of feathers where they got the last ones. And now wolves have been seen on our street.  Our neighbour says she needs the rooster to protect the chickens and produce the eggs she sells... I know, I know you don't need a rooster for eggs....

Why is it that local governments in our society can't do more to regulate people's economic behaviour when it becomes disruptive to neighbours?

It seems we have no choice but to take our neighbour to court to seek a remedy.  No doubt we'll face some sort of tit for tat complaint and so it goes.

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21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Then do something about it.  Anyone have a rooster for a neighbour?  The one next door to us started crowing at 4:00 this morning, days are getting longer I suppose. The regional district says its hands are tied - apparently we can't have a noise bylaw because we don't have a bylaw enforcement officer.  The rooster and chickens are free range and routinely wander into our yard.  At least 20 chickens have been killed by neighbourhood dogs in the last year, we have a couple piles of feathers where they got the last ones. And now wolves have been seen on our street.  Our neighbour says she needs the rooster to protect the chickens and produce the eggs she sells... I know, I know you don't need a rooster for eggs....

Why is it that local governments in our society can't do more to regulate people's economic behaviour when it becomes disruptive to neighbours?

It seems we have no choice but to take our neighbour to court to seek a remedy.  No doubt we'll face some sort of tit for tat complaint and so it goes.

You mentioned the noise, but nothing about the criminal element that seems to be plaguing AirBnB locations in many cities.

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2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

You mentioned the noise, but nothing about the criminal element that seems to be plaguing AirBnB locations in many cities.

I was speaking to the apparent inability or unwillingness of authorities to enforce rules that are on the books.  Other areas in our Reg Dist have noise by-laws and one that even pertains to roosters but for some reason they are reluctant to apply them.  We've been trying for over a year now to resolve our issue but nada, and our's is just a civil dispute.

One thing I've noticed is that we keep talking about the rooster but everyone else keeps talking about chickens. It's a stalling tactic, change the subject so they don't have to deal with it.  There's a lot of that going around these days.     

What are the authorities excuses for not doing anything about the criminal element you've mentioned?

Edited by eyeball

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28 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I was speaking to the apparent inability or unwillingness of authorities to enforce rules that are on the books.  Other areas in our Reg Dist have noise by-laws and one that even pertains to roosters but for some reason they are reluctant to apply them.  We've been trying for over a year now to resolve our issue but nada, and our's is just a civil dispute.

One thing I've noticed is that we keep talking about the rooster but everyone else keeps talking about chickens. It's a stalling tactic, change the subject so they don't have to deal with it.  There's a lot of that going around these days.     

What are the authorities excuses for not doing anything about the criminal element you've mentioned?

I would assume the criminal activity is simply rotating through a few of these AirBnB locations.  Making it harder to track that, while causing headaches for the other residents in the area.

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12 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

I would assume the criminal activity is simply rotating through a few of these AirBnB locations.  Making it harder to track that, while causing headaches for the other residents in the area.

As an IT specialist you should know that tracking what's going is as easy as falling off a log these days. I know an enforcement officer who uses host compliance software for rooting out illegal suites and he says its almost as easy as looking up the scofflaws in a phone book.

I should add by the way that the perspective I've brought forward in my discussions about this with him have caused him to soften his approach. He has a lot of people determined to do something about STR's to account to though so...

As I've said before I think the development and evolution of the so-called share economy is stirring up some fundamental issues about our economy and  how we attempt to manage or control it in more socially beneficial ways - a topic that is anathema to many of the paths our economy takes.

Edited by eyeball

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On 4/30/2019 at 5:09 AM, GostHacked said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/biggest-airbnb-hosts-canada-corporations-1.5116103

It's not the mom and pop's ruining it for the rest of you.  As I said it is corps and property management companies that seem to hold the large majority of available AirBNB units.

There is a lot to take in with this article.  Sums up some of my thoughts well enough.

 

I heard that AirBNB is working in conjunction with the likes of social media leaders like Zuckerberg(zionist) to try and fight conservative opinions and points of view on the internet and on SM sites like Facebook and twitter.  What an accommodation outfit like AirBNB is doing to try and fight against conservatives opinions and points of view on the internet and social media is beyond me.I guess that the part that thy will play is the part where if they find out that you are of the conservative kind they will not help you find a place to stay.  

Source: Website Amazing Polly. What a very bright, intelligent, and a smart well informed real and true conservative woman. The world needs more women like her around who talks common sense and logic and not emotional political correct talk. :)

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On 5/12/2019 at 5:47 PM, eyeball said:

How we regulate probably isn't as important as the question WHY we need to regulate in the first place.  By not properly addressing why we're left with forever approaching the most common economic problem, i.e. people that are left behind, dealt out of the game or pushed off the playing field, in a piecemeal manner. We spend inordinate amounts of time scratching our heads over how without any guidance stemming from having answered why.

 

I haven't been here long enough to know if you're a leftist but "a level playing field" argument is a leftist argument and it does NOT work. Yes it sounds good and on the surface and would seem that nobody but a hardcore capitalist would argue against it. But look, from a purely systemic point you can level the playing field but the playing field will never be level regardless. That's because there are people who just perform better than others. Some people have vision and the drive to make those visions reality while some people just don't have that. I firmly agree that there should be no barriers to being a productive, if not successful member of society, other than your own abilities and your drive and desire to succeed that is.  But if you don't (as opposed to simply can't), then why should I be financially punished so you can have a lifestyle you didn't earn and don't deserve? The problem with the level playing field argument is basically what leftists actually mean is equality of outcome, NOT equality of opportunity.  

The other issue is us in general. By us I mean human beings. Because of the nature of the beast, everything we do as a species has an environmental cost. And ironically, the worst offender is most likely modern medicine. As a result of modern medicine, humans were able to produce a population explosion, despite having fewer kids per couple. But because people live longer and fewer people die before they get old, that means that every year there's always going to be more people with a need for the earth's resources than there was the previous year. That means economies have to continue growing as well. That's what capitalism does, builds and grows. A so-called kinder, gentler capitalism won't be able to supply the continuously growing masses no matter how much we wish it could. I'd like to go further with this but it's almost 5AM now and I should get to bed sometime before sunup. :D

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https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-airbnb-likely-removed-31000-homes-from-canadas-rental-market-study/

Quote

More than 31,000 homes across the country were rented out so often on Airbnb in 2018 that they were likely removed from the long-term rental supply, according to a groundbreaking study by McGill University researchers.

Put another way, that’s more than enough homes for everyone in North Vancouver.

As the popularity of short-term rentals has soared, the effect on rental supply in Canada’s cities, towns and rural areas has grown, according to the study. Shared exclusively with The Globe and Mail, the report is the most comprehensive analysis of Airbnb’s impact to date, and reveals the extent of the global rental service’s footprint, even as local officials implement rules that target the short-term rental industry.

I talked about how it affects the housing market and rental property prices.

Quote

n New York, for instance, Airbnb directly accounted for a US$380 increase in median annual rent costs, according to a separate report from Prof. Wachsmuth last year that was funded, in part, by a hotel-industry organization. “The more Airbnb activity you see in a city, the higher housing prices and the higher rents are going to get,” he said. “There’s no question that [Canadian] cities are now past that point.”

Yes it was sponsored by a hotel chain, but I still have no doubt that AirBNB is affecting these prices.

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6 hours ago, Armchairprophet said:

I haven't been here long enough to know if you're a leftist but "a level playing field" argument is a leftist argument and it does NOT work.

And yet all I need is one example of you changing the subject from playing field to level playing field to know you're just another right-wing conservative itching to pick a fight.

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3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-airbnb-likely-removed-31000-homes-from-canadas-rental-market-study/

I talked about how it affects the housing market and rental property prices.

Yes it was sponsored by a hotel chain, but I still have no doubt that AirBNB is affecting these prices.

It's the business model that's at issue. How do you deal with that without imposing some sort of command economy on society and effectively telling people what they can and can't do to earn money?

As I pointed out above local councillors who advocated strictly regulating and shutting STR's where I live suffered in the last election.

Shut down AirBnb and 3 more will pop up to replace it. Threaten to shut down people's ability to earn money and....

Edited by eyeball

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28 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's the business model that's at issue. How do you deal with that without imposing some sort of command economy on society and effectively telling people what they can and can't do to earn money?

As I pointed out above local councillors who advocated strictly regulating and shutting STR's where I live suffered in the last election.

Shut down AirBnb and 3 more will pop up to replace it. Threaten to shut down people's ability to earn money and....

To me this is no longer about making money. AirBNB is directly contributing to the rising prices in rental markets. And in NYC they said it increased with a median of 380 dollars a month.   So while you need to make money, this is directly increasing the cost of living for those who need affordable housing. In the end it is not doing a city any good.

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10 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

To me this is no longer about making money. AirBNB is directly contributing to the rising prices in rental markets. And in NYC they said it increased with a median of 380 dollars a month.   So while you need to make money, this is directly increasing the cost of living for those who need affordable housing. In the end it is not doing a city any good.

Why isn't the city enforcing rules around increasing rent? In BC the rules are pretty strict. Kicking people out so you can convert is illegal, so to is jacking the rent by more than a small percentage at a time, usually tied to the cost of living and inflation.

I suspect some sort of collusion between property owners, developers, realtors, and city governments myself.  As always I think the solution is more transparency but how likelyis that?

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I really think that the solution to the housing crisis is not to restrict but to loosen.  If regulations were lifted on allowing temporary or non-permanent housing on abandoned or transitional property (land waiting to be redeveloped) and some Greenbelt and parkland, understanding that such property is leased rather than owned, there would be a surge in the supply of modular, mini, and other housing.  Just allowing people to rent out rooms and basements contributes to supply.  Stifling STR’s through regulation doesn’t kill the demand.  Supplying demand is how healthy economies work.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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On 6/21/2019 at 4:53 AM, Armchairprophet said:

I haven't been here long enough to know if you're a leftist but "a level playing field" argument is a leftist argument and it does NOT work. Yes it sounds good and on the surface and would seem that nobody but a hardcore capitalist would argue against it. But look, from a purely systemic point you can level the playing field but the playing field will never be level regardless. That's because there are people who just perform better than others. Some people have vision and the drive to make those visions reality while some people just don't have that. I firmly agree that there should be no barriers to being a productive, if not successful member of society, other than your own abilities and your drive and desire to succeed that is.  But if you don't (as opposed to simply can't), then why should I be financially punished so you can have a lifestyle you didn't earn and don't deserve? The problem with the level playing field argument is basically what leftists actually mean is equality of outcome, NOT equality of opportunity.  

The other issue is us in general. By us I mean human beings. Because of the nature of the beast, everything we do as a species has an environmental cost. And ironically, the worst offender is most likely modern medicine. As a result of modern medicine, humans were able to produce a population explosion, despite having fewer kids per couple. But because people live longer and fewer people die before they get old, that means that every year there's always going to be more people with a need for the earth's resources than there was the previous year. That means economies have to continue growing as well. That's what capitalism does, builds and grows. A so-called kinder, gentler capitalism won't be able to supply the continuously growing masses no matter how much we wish it could. I'd like to go further with this but it's almost 5AM now and I should get to bed sometime before sunup. :D

Pretty much off topic.

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