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World dictators becoming a big, happy club

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Russia's Putin is in Beijing to confer with China's Schee. The two countries have been getting closer and closer over the years. Yesterday, North Korea's little fat man was greeted by Putin in Vladivostok. The Philippines' murderous Duarte has already expressed his admiration for China, which is slowly buying his country, while Turkey's new Sultan and Putin express mutual admiration for each other.

The world's thugs are feeling very chummy towards each other. Meanwhile the West is in complete disarray, with nothing but weak leaders, shaky coalition governments, and rising anger from their electorates. They have all, except for the US, allowed their military forces to lapse into near obsolescence while they divert funds in desperate attempts to buy off angry, entitled electorates. France has riots in the streets every week, despite having one of the most generous (and unaffordable) welfare states in the world. Germany is consumed with its migrant crisis, while the UK is busy tearing itself apart over tearing itself apart from the EU, and could well elect the next thing to an outright Communist as its next prime minister. And there's us, consumed by virtue signalling and identity politics with a government determined to stop all economic development at any cost.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-putin-backs-xis-vision-of-a-new-world-order-as-russia-china-look-to/

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Correct...except for the U.S.

But this is not the first Sino-Russo seduction, as the first occurred many decades ago between Moscow (Soviets) and China.   It did not end well for either.

This time around, they may get it right.   

President Trump is giving the world what it has wished for after so much bitching about American foreign policies...a less engaged United States.   Unlike Clinton, Bush, and Obama, no new shooting wars have been engaged by Trump.

...be careful what you wish for.

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On 4/26/2019 at 12:55 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Correct...except for the U.S.

But this is not the first Sino-Russo seduction, as the first occurred many decades ago between Moscow (Soviets) and China.   It did not end well for either.

This time around, they may get it right.   

Both are far more powerful economically than they were back then. The Chinese are basically buying Africa, and doing their best to buy up Asia.

On 4/26/2019 at 12:55 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

President Trump is giving the world what it has wished for after so much bitching about American foreign policies...a less engaged United States.   Unlike Clinton, Bush, and Obama, no new shooting wars have been engaged by Trump.

...be careful what you wish for.

The problem with that attitude is the US is not immune to what happens in the world. If the Chinese buy up third world countries then it gets their natural resources and can exclude them from going to Western countries, including the US, or have higher prices charged there. And as its influence abroad grows with its belt and road scheme its economy will strengthen and take over markets the US once profited from. U.S. disengagement is not in American interests. 

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17 minutes ago, Argus said:

Both are far more powerful economically than they were back then. The Chinese are basically buying Africa, and doing their best to buy up Asia.

 

China...yes, but the Russians have only recently eclipsed economic performance of the former Soviet Union era.   Russia stumbled badly after 1991 and the 1998 default/ruble collapse.

 

Quote

The problem with that attitude is the US is not immune to what happens in the world. If the Chinese buy up third world countries then it gets their natural resources and can exclude them from going to Western countries, including the US, or have higher prices charged there. And as its influence abroad grows with its belt and road scheme its economy will strengthen and take over markets the US once profited from. U.S. disengagement is not in American interests. 

 

China will continue to grow in economic and military power, and there is nothing the U.S. can do about it save for defense spending and alliances.   America is broke, and both nations depend on each other for trade and debt.    NATO deadbeat nations like Canada are in no position to dictate what U.S. foreign policy should be.   The U.S. cannot and should not be the world's defender against the Chinese bogeyman.

What is Canada doing about the dictator's club besides virtue signaling from Ottawa ?

Fact is, Canada's economy is more dependent on export trade (mostly with the U.S.) than is China, and the the U.S. is the least dependent on export markets.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China...yes, but the Russians have only recently eclipsed economic performance of the former Soviet Union era.   Russia stumbled badly after 1991 and the 1998 default/ruble collapse.

Have they? The Soviet Union was a lot larger. If much smaller Russia has equaled Soviet performance then it's actually doing a lot better, isn't it?

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China will continue to grow in economic and military power, and there is nothing the U.S. can do about it save for defense spending and alliances.   America is broke, and both nations depend on each other for trade and debt.  

The U.S. is only 'broke' because of a series of incompetent governments, including the present one, which have piled up debt through appealing to people's greed and hatred for their children and grandchildren by cutting taxes.

30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

NATO deadbeat nations like Canada are in no position to dictate what U.S. foreign policy should be.   The U.S. cannot and should not be the world's defender against the Chinese bogeyman.

As I was pointing out, China is a threat to the US, probably more than to most other nations.

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27 minutes ago, Argus said:

Have they? The Soviet Union was a lot larger. If much smaller Russia has equaled Soviet performance then it's actually doing a lot better, isn't it?

 

No, as I am only speaking to the Russian economy component.   Russia was also hurt badly by the 2008 global recession and more recent oil price collapse.   The U.S. now produces more petroleum and distillates than Russia, and much more than China.

 

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The U.S. is only 'broke' because of a series of incompetent governments, including the present one, which have piled up debt through appealing to people's greed and hatred for their children and grandchildren by cutting taxes.

 

Maybe, but what is done is done, regardless of political ideology or governments.   Fiscal conservatism is now out of favour, even for desperate austerity measures.   Debt has been embraced by consumers and governments alike.  

 

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As I was pointing out, China is a threat to the US, probably more than to most other nations.

 

How so ?    China and the U.S. are now #1 trading partners.   Pacific rim nations have far more to fear from China than the U.S., as China is still incapable of projecting military power beyond that region.    Even on a bad day, the U.S. still remains the only global economic AND military superpower.

The world is changing (again), and China will claim its share of markets and resources, competing with other nations just as it should.   The EU is far more threatened than the U.S. for access to Asian and African resources.  

China has no time for the new western/NATO  imperialism...."human rights"...or selective "Responsibility to Protect".   

Chinese counter-terrorism policies actually align quite well with the U.S., maybe too well.....kill them all.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

How so ?    China and the U.S. are now #1 trading partners.  

You have a lot more to lose than the people of the third world. Most have little in the way of freedom anyway. You say China can't project power to the US? Your country is as vulnerable as most, and more than many in the way its politicians can be bribed, often legally. China is doing its best to exert influence in the U.S. by co-opting US corporations and bribing politicians at all levels. They're even bribing your universities to only teach things they approve of with regard to China.  China doesn't need to take over your country through tanks and missiles. It can do it buy buying off your almost endlessly corrupt politicians. 

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

You have a lot more to lose than the people of the third world. Most have little in the way of freedom anyway. You say China can't project power to the US? Your country is as vulnerable as most, and more than many in the way its politicians can be bribed, often legally. China is doing its best to exert influence in the U.S. by co-opting US corporations and bribing politicians at all levels. They're even bribing your universities to only teach things they approve of with regard to China.  China doesn't need to take over your country through tanks and missiles. It can do it buy buying off your almost endlessly corrupt politicians. 

 

Please understand that this sentiment has little credibility coming from a nation (Canada) that is far more dominated and dependent on foreign direct investment and access to U.S. markets.   U.S. public and private interests have exerted such influence on Canada for decades (e.g. your own reference to the Koch brothers).  American corps own 50% of Canada's manufacturing base, and a good portion of oil/bitumen production.

China has not made such gains in the U.S., not even close.   More U.S. corporations have actually set up shop in China than vice-versa.  

Why are you so concerned about what China may or may not do with the U.S. going forward ?    Is Canada dependent on what may happen, or more importantly, completely helpless to determine its own economic and military fate without the Americans ?

Why do you only see China as the enemy ?

As for corruption, I need not remind you of Canada's corrupt politicians and corporations (e.g. SNC-Lavalin).

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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You forgot to include in your list the worse dictators the world has ever seen. Those who murder women and children,  Threaten the world and rule by evil, fear and destruction. Yes Russia and China and North Korea all true but the list skipped the worst ones.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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On 4/30/2019 at 10:13 AM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You forgot to include in your list the worse dictators the world has ever seen. Those who murder women and children,  Threaten the world and rule by evil, fear and destruction. Yes Russia and China and North Korea all true but the list skipped the worst ones.

No, it didn't.

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes you did. You did not mention regimes in Iran and Syria.

North Korea is ten times worse than both of them combined. In any event, Syria's thug is not a 'strongman' in that he needed the Russians and Iranians to save his ass. He's now their bitch.

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On 4/26/2019 at 11:41 AM, Argus said:

The world's thugs are feeling very chummy towards each other.

So the way it works is this, China offer generous amount of loans to host countries with no way of paying it back. They bribe the leadership of said country to keep their position while they hold this debt leverage. Its a vicious cycle, they'll keep financing you to stay in power as long as you sell out your country's strategic asset and do their bidding. You wonder why dictatorship growing, well that's because the CCP is buying them. Case and point, Venezuela, Syria etc...

Edited by paxamericana

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4 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

So the way it works is this, China offer generous amount of loans to host countries with no way of paying it back. They bribe the leadership of said country to keep their position while they hold this debt leverage. Its a vicious cycle, they'll keep financing you to stay in power as long as you sell out your country's strategic asset and do their bidding. You wonder why dictatorship growing, well that's because the CCP is buying them. Case and point, Venezuela, Syria etc...

The US used to do their best to prevent that sort of thing, but no more. Now China has a free hand.

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3 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US used to do their best to prevent that sort of thing, but no more. Now China has a free hand.

 

Why is this a US burden ?   What have other nations done about such things ?

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US used to do their best to prevent that sort of thing, but no more. Now China has a free hand.

Not really, that was true of previous administrations until now. That's because China's market is an enticing prize for our corporations and wall-street and they kept previous thin skinned administration from making it public. Trump put an end to that. He's doing what he can to reverse that trend. FYI my money is that the tariff with china is permanent. It's a strategic way of decoupling china from the global supply chain. If I were you I'd invest in neighboring countries like India and Vietnam. So contrary to popular opinion the US is doing something about it. But make no mistake this isn't because of some deluded sense of altruism for freedom. Its in America's strategic interest that China doesn't run the world. It just happens that Canada and the rest of Europe prefer this as well. 

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Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Why is this a US burden ?   What have other nations done about such things ?

Fair question.

A. You're the one with 320 million people.
B. Richest country in the world
C. You have voracious industries which require massive imports from around the world, especially of raw materials.
D. You have many world-wide corporate entities with interests around the world which need protecting.

I imagine the Germans, French and Brits are doing some things, though all three are nearly paralyzed with internal problems. But the US is the main impediment to Chinese and/or Russian expansion of influence, power and control in the world.

Interesting that the four largest, richest, most powerful western countries are all beset with enormous internal political strife at the same time as the Chinese and Russians move to expand their interest in the world, eh? Kinda coincidental like.

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10 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Not really, that was true of previous administrations until now. That's because China's market is an enticing prize for our corporations and wall-street and they kept previous thin skinned administration from making it public. Trump put an end to that. He's doing what he can to reverse that trend. FYI my money is that the tariff with china is permanent. It's a strategic way of decoupling china from the global supply chain. If I were you I'd invest in neighboring countries like India and Vietnam. So contrary to popular opinion the US is doing something about it. But make no mistake this isn't because of some deluded sense of altruism for freedom. Its in America's strategic interest that China doesn't run the world. It just happens that Canada and the rest of Europe prefer this as well. 

Let's face facts. China is the ultimate C*ck-tease. They offer and offer and offer, but never follow through. And even when they say 'yes', they actually mean "maybe at some point in the future'. But that's been enough to keep western countries, including the US and Canada, grovelling before them for the last twenty years at the behest of their national corporations salivating for a chance to get their hands on that booty. 

I approve of the sanctions, but I'm not under much illusion they're going to do much good. Trump has shown since he got elected that he considers the stock market a sort of Neilson rating system for his administration. The Chinese know this. They're more than willing to let things lie in hopes that as the election approaches Trump will get desperate for anything he can pretend is a win, and will settle up. He'll accept some minor commitments from China - which they will ignore - and then triumphantly hold the agreement aloft like Chamberlain with his peace treaty. And even if that doesn't work, the Democrats will likely win in 2020 and they probably figure they can cut a much better deal with them.

Still, you're ignoring the diplomatic moves the Chinese are making, the treaties and agreements they're signing with so many other nations, their expanding influence. I suspect those carriers they're building are as much to blockade and threaten any country which won't pay back its debts as to counter the US. They've already taken over several ports from countries which fell behind, and eventually one is going to refuse to give them what they want and find a Chinese battle group floating offshore. Think that's too outrageous? The Chinese don't care what the world thinks and have no problem with hand-wringing liberals at home. They can do as they want to third world countries.

Edited by Argus

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

Fair question.

A. You're the one with 320 million people.
B. Richest country in the world
C. You have voracious industries which require massive imports from around the world, especially of raw materials.
D. You have many world-wide corporate entities with interests around the world which need protecting.

 

A. India has far more people, and Indonesia is nearly 300 million.

B. The U.S. has over $20 trillion in federal debt, and more at the state and local levels.   Sorry....tapped out.

C.  The U.S. only imports 13% of world exports, and far less per capita.

D.  Other nations do not protect their corporate interests much either, so why must the U.S. ?

 

Quote

I imagine the Germans, French and Brits are doing some things, though all three are nearly paralyzed with internal problems. But the US is the main impediment to Chinese and/or Russian expansion of influence, power and control in the world.

 

Not really...China is growing quickly in power and influence and Russia annexed the Crimea without much of a fuss.  

 

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Interesting that the four largest, richest, most powerful western countries are all beset with enormous internal political strife at the same time as the Chinese and Russians move to expand their interest in the world, eh? Kinda coincidental like.

 

Oh well....the weaker nations of the world are even more useless when faced with such challenges, and certainly don't want to pay to stop any of it.

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3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

A. India has far more people, and Indonesia is nearly 300 million.

They're not rich western countries.

Quote

B. The U.S. has over $20 trillion in federal debt, and more at the state and local levels.   Sorry....tapped out.

You only have that debt because you insist on repeatedly cutting taxes but never cutting spending. There is vast wealth available to be tapped should that ever stop.
And don't even try to say this would 'destroy the economy! Aaagh!'. Lots of countries have higher taxes and strong economies.

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C.  The U.S. only imports 13% of world exports, and far less per capita.

We're talking raw materials.

Quote

D.  Other nations do not protect their corporate interests much either, so why must the U.S. ?

No one has as anywhere near as many huge multinationals as the US does.

 

Edited by Argus

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It was the present Canadian government who sought closer ties with China as Trump pulled back and imposed tariffs, think it was a big opportunity.

Ergo, it is laughable that there be an expectation that the U.S. continue to protect the "post WW2 order" while not even meeting NATO's 2% of GDP spending commitment.

Now China is kicking Canada's ass.

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14 minutes ago, Argus said:

They're more than willing to let things lie in hopes that as the election approaches Trump will get desperate for anything he can pretend is a win, and will settle up.

I don't think this is true actually, not because I trust what trump says but because I see companies doing exactly what I said, getting out of dodge in China. They're anticipating a long term permanent tariff. I suspect this is due to the fact that the core American demand is intellectual property protection. China as it currently stand is unable to provide such mechanism. Simply put what I'm saying is that they are unable to meet the US's trade demand. Businesses knows this and are exiting China because of it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/07/30/trade-war-casualties-factories-shifting-out-of-china/#34e07055103e

Edited by paxamericana

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7 minutes ago, Argus said:

They're not rich western countries.

 

So ?   Does the burden only fall on "rich" western countries ?   If so, what is Canada's problem ?

 

Quote

You only have that debt because you insist on repeatedly cutting taxes but never cutting spending. There is vast wealth available to be tapped should that ever stop.
And don't even try to say this would 'destroy the economy! Aaagh!'. Lots of countries have higher taxes and strong economies.

 

The U.S. could cut defence spending by 80% down to levels of other deadbeat nations, but then you would bitch about that too.   Why don't these other "strong economies" stand up to China and Russia ?

 

Quote

We're talking raw materials.

 

Raw materials are only a portion of world exports.   The U.S. is only 13%.   Cutting imports from Canada would not be well received in...Canada...because it is so dependent on exports to the United States...even more than China.

 

Quote

No one has as anywhere near as many huge multinationals as the US does.

 

Sorry, but there will be no wars for Google or Facebook.

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

It was the present Canadian government who sought closer ties with China as Trump pulled back and imposed tariffs, think it was a big opportunity.

Ergo, it is laughable that there be an expectation that the U.S. continue to protect the "post WW2 order" while not even meeting NATO's 2% of GDP spending commitment.

Now China is kicking Canada's ass.

What has any of that crap got to do with what I said? Sure, Trudeau is a virtue-signalling clown with no comprehension of life's realities. So? 

SO "ergo' the US should not be expected to look after its own  worldwide interests? Is that what you're suggesting?

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2 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

I don't think this is true actually, not because I trust what trump says but because I see companies doing exactly what I said, getting out of dodge in China. They're anticipating a long term permanent tariff. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/07/30/trade-war-casualties-factories-shifting-out-of-china/#34e07055103e

A few are, but there's just so much there. And besides, the US is not really helped all that much by companies relocating from China to Vietnam or Mexico anyway. China is still going to move forward with its efforts at worldwide influence and it's going to ignore Trump if he doesn't play ball, and hope the next guy is easier to deal with. Sure a few companies will leave, but planning to leave, finding a place, and relocating are expensive and take quite some time. I'm sure most will wait and see what happens, expecting the two to settle before too long.

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