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Argus

World dictators becoming a big, happy club

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1 minute ago, Argus said:

What has any of that crap got to do with what I said? Sure, Trudeau is a virtue-signalling clown with no comprehension of life's realities. So? 

SO "ergo' the US should not be expected to look after its own  worldwide interests? Is that what you're suggesting?

 

The relevance is that another "rich, western nation", Canada, explicitly sought to take advantage of Trump's trade war escalations with China, while also insisting that Trump protect the "post WW2 order" with American blood and treasure.

This is not on you personally, but it just illustrates just how half-assed Canadian policies and lack of action can be.

Hence, I do not take such pleading from across the border very seriously.

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1 minute ago, Argus said:

A few are, but there's just so much there. And besides, the US is not really helped all that much by companies relocating from China to Vietnam or Mexico anyway. China is still going to move forward with its efforts at worldwide influence and it's going to ignore Trump if he doesn't play ball, and hope the next guy is easier to deal with. Sure a few companies will leave, but planning to leave, finding a place, and relocating are expensive and take quite some time. I'm sure most will wait and see what happens, expecting the two to settle before too long.

Nah, what I'm saying is that companies know they need to get out because the tariff is permanent. 

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3 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Nah, what I'm saying is that companies know they need to get out because the tariff is permanent. 

 

Other factors are in play as well....China no longer wants to be the cheapest labour pool for foreign corporations, and wants to move up the vertical integration chain.

China isn't so cheap any more, and Trump's tax changes have lured many U.S. corps back to the "states".

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10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Other factors are in play as well....China no longer wants to be the cheapest labour pool for foreign corporations, and wants to move up the vertical integration chain.

China isn't so cheap any more, and Trump's tax changes have lured many U.S. corps back to the "states".

Well sure they want to but they're doing it through IP theft and corporate espionage. That only gets you parity, it doesn't get you to surpass the us. Same thing happen to Japan, they only caught up but never exceeded. 

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Just now, paxamericana said:

Well sure they want to but they're doing it through IP theft and corporate espionage. That only gets you parity, it doesn't get you to surpass the us. Same thing happen to Japan, they only caught up but never exceeded. 

 

OK, but China has a much larger middle class developing than Japan, and that is their long term objective.   China has consistently demonstrated the desire to emulate American steps to becoming a global economic and military superpower, including manned spaceflight.

If it means stealing IP, then that is what China will continue to do.   There is no compelling reason not to, as the consequences are not severe.   Only Trump has dared to call them out, yet he faces severe criticism domestically and abroad for doing so.

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

What has any of that crap got to do with what I said? Sure, Trudeau is a virtue-signalling clown with no comprehension of life's realities. So? 

SO "ergo' the US should not be expected to look after its own  worldwide interests? Is that what you're suggesting?

 

Why more so than the EU, which has a larger population and economy than the U.S., and lots of worldwide interests.

Is that what you are suggesting ?

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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57 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The relevance is that another "rich, western nation", Canada, explicitly sought to take advantage of Trump's trade war escalations with China, while also insisting that Trump protect the "post WW2 order" with American blood and treasure.

I wouldn't say they sought to take advantage so much as sought to find more trading partners once our major one went bananas.

57 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is not on you personally, but it just illustrates just how half-assed Canadian policies and lack of action can be.

Why tell me about it? I've criticized our defense and foreign policies relentlessly. Which means I feel free to criticize yours too.

You, on the other hand, have defended your idiotic foreign policy, so really don't have the right to criticize ours.

 

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42 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Well sure they want to but they're doing it through IP theft and corporate espionage. That only gets you parity, it doesn't get you to surpass the us. Same thing happen to Japan, they only caught up but never exceeded. 

True. But China has a billion people. If they catch up that means they're three times stronger.

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6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Why more so than the EU, which has a larger population and economy than the U.S., and lots of worldwide interests.

Because they're totally screwed up in more ways than I could stay awake long enough to innumerate. In any event, the EU is not a country and has no real foreign policy. it can barely figure out what sort of internal policies it should have.

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42 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK, but China has a much larger middle class developing than Japan, and that is their long term objective.   China has consistently demonstrated the desire to emulate American steps to becoming a global economic and military superpower, including manned spaceflight.

If it means stealing IP, then that is what China will continue to do.   There is no compelling reason not to, as the consequences are not severe.   Only Trump has dared to call them out, yet he faces severe criticism domestically and abroad for doing so.

He has? From whom? I don't know of anyone who has criticized him for complaining about Chinese IP theft and hacking. Although I could call HIM out for doing nothing about it. Your government, military and military contractors are sieves, as far as protecting secret information goes.

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15 minutes ago, Argus said:

True. But China has a billion people. If they catch up that means they're three times stronger.

So no not really. A country's economic output is dependent on how efficient its work force is not how many people it has anymore. This is due to technology and hyper specialization. The same is also true of a university's research. What matters is how good your researcher is, not how many. 

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14 minutes ago, Argus said:

I wouldn't say they sought to take advantage so much as sought to find more trading partners once our major one went bananas.

 

No, your government specifically attempted to take advantage of Trump's trade policies directed at China to achieve the very objectives you say are a U.S. responsibility as the largest western economy.  To wit:

 

Quote

The irony is that the Trudeau government came into office criticizing the Harper Conservatives for being too critical of China. The Liberals pitched deeper engagement with Beijing as the key to prosperity. The new team in Ottawa appeared to be blissfully clueless about the regime they were trying so hard to get into bed with.

Those China blinders were quickly ripped off. Ottawa has been treated to a series of disillusionments, and ever-increasing doses of wisdom, via exposure to unpleasant truths about the People’s Republic.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-china-is-changing-the-geopolitical-climate-canada-has-to-mitigate/

 

Quote

Why tell me about it? I've criticized our defense and foreign policies relentlessly. Which means I feel free to criticize yours too.

You, on the other hand, have defended your idiotic foreign policy, so really don't have the right to criticize ours.

 

Well, by your own admission, my country's defense and foreign policies matter a lot more than yours, idiotic or not.

Your government has become more impotent than ever, and Canada is no longer even a middle power.

That still doesn't mean that the burden for limiting Russia or China should fall mostly on the United States, regardless of who is president.

 

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4 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

So no not really. A country's economic output is dependent on how efficient its work force is not how many people it has anymore. This is due to technology and hyper specialization. The same is also true of a university's research. What matters is how good your researcher is, not how many. 

But China can make people work harder - or else. And quantity has a quality all its own.

In China’s tech industry, the 72-hour work week, dubbed the 996, has bosses singing its praises

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-in-chinas-tech-industry-the-72-hour-work-week-dubbed-the-996-has/

  • Haha 1

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16 minutes ago, Argus said:

Because they're totally screwed up in more ways than I could stay awake long enough to innumerate. In any event, the EU is not a country and has no real foreign policy. it can barely figure out what sort of internal policies it should have.

 

So no matter what, you have set your hopes and fears on what the Americans may or may not do, because Canada, the EU, and other "western" nations are not up to the task.

For you and your country, it's America's responsibility even as you criticize how we do it.   Typical....

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4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, your government specifically attempted to take advantage of Trump's trade policies directed at China to achieve the very objectives you say are a U.S. responsibility as the largest western economy.  To wit:

They tried to make trade pacts and in their idiotic pie-in-the-sky way tried to demand progressive social policies too. That isn't what I think the US should do. The Chinese can't be bribed. They need to be flat out blocked.

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Well, by your own admission, my country's defense and foreign policies matter a lot more than yours, idiotic or not.

TEN TIMES THE POPULATION

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

That still doesn't mean that the burden for limiting Russia or China should fall mostly on the United States, regardless of who is president.

It's in your own interests to limit Russia and China.

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

So no matter what, you have set your hopes and fears on what the Americans may or may not do, because Canada, the EU, and other "western" nations are not up to the task.

And so far neither are you. 

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30 minutes ago, Argus said:

He has? From whom? I don't know of anyone who has criticized him for complaining about Chinese IP theft and hacking. Although I could call HIM out for doing nothing about it. Your government, military and military contractors are sieves, as far as protecting secret information goes.

 

It is happening right now with cases like Huawei, Meng, and Canada's waffling over 5G network contracts with China.

Canada is caught between a rock and a hard place, wanting to counter the Americans as usual, but not wanting China to kick its ass even worse.

Trump's tariff actions on trade, IP theft, transshipments, dumping, etc. were roundly criticized, while nothing better/different is/was offered to counter China, especially from a weakened Canada.

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004

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5 minutes ago, Argus said:

And so far neither are you. 

 

Nor do I want to be....already won my generation's Cold War with other nations that had real backbones...including Canada, but those days are long gone.

China will continue to grow in power and influence, and there is nothing that will stop it.

America does not exist to help you sleep better at night in Canada, a NATO deadbeat nation.

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16 minutes ago, Argus said:

TEN TIMES THE POPULATION

It's in your own interests to limit Russia and China.

 

EU is larger...complain more to them...Russia is right next door.

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

EU is larger...complain more to them...Russia is right next door.

Conrad Black suggests a trading and foreign policy block between Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Singapore and other high standards Commonwealth countries.  It would rival the US in economic muscle and be smaller than the EU and certainly larger than Russia.  It would of course be a close ally of the US but could provide a third counter to China and, if it ever got any ideas, Russia.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Conrad Black suggests a trading and foreign policy block between Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Singapore and other high standards Commonwealth countries.  It would rival the US in economic muscle and be smaller than the EU and certainly larger than Russia.  It would of course be a close ally of the US but could provide a third counter to China and, if it ever got any ideas, Russia.  

 

Unfortunately, this idea still requires the United States to remain the military muscle and backstop.   Russia is not an economic threat in any current scenario, not even with higher oil prices, save for short term natural gas stoppages to Europe.   China will continue to grow, beyond being just a regional military power.  

The current state of world affairs is certainly not of President Trump's making, but I give him credit for attacking what many agreed to be the economic threat (China) while being unwilling to do much about it.   The U.S. has never been in the dictator removal business unless it specifically serves U.S. interests, supporting favourite dictators of its own.

 

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When Confederation took place Canada had one fourteenth the population of the US.  That has come down to around one ninth (perhaps one tenth counting illegals).  If that growth pace continues, Canada will have about 50 million people by the 2050’s, roughly the size of 1950’s Britain.  Australia and New Zealand are also growing.  With the right procurements and investments, there is much that these fairly new countries will contribute.  Europe has an internal security problem.  Russia is focused mainly on non-EU Eastern European expansion.  The Baltics and Norway/Finland remain at risk.  China is making huge investments in Africa, building a new Silk Road to Europe, and sabre rattling throughout the South Pacific.  It’s also trying to dominate internet and communications hardware and EV’s.   Their wages are rising, yet they still have relatively cheap labour.  Trump is using tariffs to level the playing field.  They’re a blunt instrument and I’d rather see better international rules, better enforced, but tariffs are the strategy he is banking on.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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That's because Trump is limited by what he can do, using the tariff tools that are permitted by WTO rules, the same tariffs that other nations use.   Europe was very comfortable living under American protection post WW2 in exchange for being able to spend more on butter than guns.   Canada has followed a similar path recently.

Trump is right in that the U.S. can no longer afford to spend American blood and treasure to continue this game.   U.S. social programs already outspend the DoD, and this will grow with aging boomers. 

China will expand wherever there is little to no resistance or protected American interests.   It is a nation of 1.3 billion people with its own aspirations for economic and military power.

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