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How do we force immigrants to assimilate?

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2 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Now, Dialamah will pretend that that's the way every man is, but I'm sure she would get a very real awakening if she ever heard muslim men speaking to other men

I am often surprised by what men say to each other that they'd never say to me.  I imagine its the same with Hindu men, Sikh men, Italian men, Spanish men.  I just don't happen to believe that Muslim men hold some special monopoly on misogyny.  

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51 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Here is what you fanatics from the far fringes of the right don't ever seem to understand. 

I realize you're uneducated, but if two thirds or three quarters of the population agrees with me that doesn't make me fringe. Or even right wing. 

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Most people don't bother to look at more than the surface: something sounds reasonable

Yes. Like most people accept the continuing bullshit about immigration helping the economy, and how we need immigrants because of an aging population. Neither is true. Also, most people don't realize how many immigrants are coming in. When they find out, their support of immigration drops.

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You, however, go to great lengths to only present "facts" that demean and marginalize immigrants from certain areas.  That's bigotry and racism.  An example:

You took an Environics survey that says "young Muslims attend Mosque more than their parents" and used that to sound the alarm about Muslim youth becoming more extreme

What it actually said was that younger Muslims are more religious than their parents.

Quote

At the same time you disregarded the information in that the same survey about Muslim youth also more accepting of homosexuality and strong support for female equality and other progressive Canadian values.  You insist that going to Mosque more must exclude progressive values for Muslims, without, apparently, the slightest clue that this is exactly what "Islamic reform" means:  Muslims with progressive ideas going to Mosque.

You evidently have never bothered to acquaint yourself with the rules of being in this religion. And what little you have heard you dismiss because as an atheist you can't imagine anyone paying the slightest attention to religious rules. You have convinced yourself Muslims pay no attention to the teachings of their religion, and that the growing number of Muslim girls and women wearing burkas and hijabs are just doing it as a fashion statement, and not because of their devotion to Islam.  Most of us are smarter than you, though, and not as empty headed.

And yes, I DID notice you refused to address the questions. Again.

Edited by Argus
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16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I have neither denied Islamic terrorism nor defended it; I merely refused to give a garbage website any credence.  And as mentioned, this topic isn't about  terrorism.

That's how she rolls, you see. She'll demand evidence to support something, and then when you provide it she'll change the topic to something else. Oh, she really didn't care about THAT! No, no, she's focused on THIS - until you prove her wrong again then she'll be focused on something else.

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3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I am often surprised by what men say to each other that they'd never say to me.  I imagine its the same with Hindu men, Sikh men, Italian men, Spanish men.  I just don't happen to believe that Muslim men hold some special monopoly on misogyny.  

That's what I mean, you seem to think it's all men, but it's about the level of and the consistency of the cultural belief system that I'm talking about.  No, Muslim men don't have a monopoly on misogyny, but this is beyond misogyny.  Misogyny is a hatred towards women, and although I'm sure there are misogynistic Muslims,  Muslims generally don't hate women, they just have a culture that shows very little value in them.  

I can disagree with a Muslim man and have an equal, even respectful relationship with one - as i do, you, however will always be a lower class of human...In their opinion. 

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1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

they just have a culture that shows very little value in them.  

There's a running joke with the Islamic fundamental, there's really only one gender, Men and property. 

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Just now, paxamericana said:

There's a running joke with the Islamic fundamental, there's really only one gender, Men and property. 

Yes, that's why it's actually staggering just how many western women defend Muslim men.

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7 minutes ago, Argus said:

That's how she rolls, you see. She'll demand evidence to support something, and then when you provide it she'll change the topic to something else. Oh, she really didn't care about THAT! No, no, she's focused on THIS - until you prove her wrong again then she'll be focused on something else.

Oh, did you want to discuss the prevalence of Islamic terrorism vs. Leftist terrorism in this thread you created about forcing people to do what you think they should?  I did just get a warning about being off-topic; perhaps you will persuade CA that its ok this time?

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1 minute ago, Hal 9000 said:

Yes, that's why it's actually staggering just how many western women defend Muslim men.

I don't think they actually want to defend it, its just they're acquiring more social justice points, why else would they have a handy camera man nearby. 

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1 hour ago, Hal 9000 said:

I've worked closely with many Muslim men and they all seemed alright, polite to me and my wife and their co-workers - even the females and behave somewhat typical.  That said, these guys all had issues with respecting women - every one.  If any of our female employees rechecked their work, questioned them or had to redo something, then you would see the Islam come out, "you are a woman, you don't disrespect me" and so forth.  That's just the way it is.

 

Integration is defined as the process by which members of immigrant groups and host societies come to resemble one another.

What baffles me is: what about the misogyny that is rampant in Islam do Western countries want to adopt?  No, this is just one  area of difference with Islam where there can be no tolerance of intolerance.  This is an area that we (well, some of us, anyways) do not want to see become a prevalent attitude in Canada.

I have also had to deal with Muslim men and yes, they do not take kindly to women giving them any direction or telling them No.  I was assaulted by one for telling him No.  My sister started a project to set up a medical office with a private doctor who shortly thereafter converted to Islam and brought in other Muslim men to work with him.  She was quickly silenced and shut out, eventually gave up and left them.  None of them had ever set up a medical office before, while she has been doing it her whole professional life.  But she's a woman and so.......

When people say they would like to see immigrants assimilate more, it's about this - it's about everyday life for Canadians.  And you are right - for Western women, the influx of Muslim men is definitely having a damaging effect.  Of course, some do not care about Canadian women - their focus is on "saving" Muslims, who cares who it hurts.

I agree with Dia in that - you can't "force" them to change their opinion of women - especially when misogyny is a way of life and a religious obligation for them.  So, I'm with Argus - don't bring in so many from these cultures. In smaller numbers, they may assimilate and adopt some Western views but in larger numbers with the influence of their Islamic communities and mosques, there is no impetus to change. And we have a government right now that is telling them they do not have to change anything to integrate into Canadian society and telling Canadians to basically just "suck it up" and tolerate the intolerance.

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You can't pick and choose cultures under the current constitution, the only way to get what you want is to open up the constitution, and no way you will get what you want within the current Confederation, so you're either revolutionary or you're not, if you're not, you're just hand waving.

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27 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I agree with Dia in that - you can't "force" them to change their opinion of women - especially when misogyny is a way of life and a religious obligation for them.  So, I'm with Argus - don't bring in so many from these cultures. In smaller numbers, they may assimilate and adopt some Western views but in larger numbers with the influence of their Islamic communities and mosques, there is no impetus to change. 

Indeed, the internal report, obtained under an access to information request, shows that immigration analysts are worried that the “absorptive capacity” of Canada is going down.

“Declining outcomes of recent immigrants have shown that integration is not automatic,” says the report, which surveys emerging problems with immigration flows and the pressure it’s putting on Canadian sectors.

Integration slowing

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All you ZOMG immigrant whiners have zero chance of getting anything you want in the face of the Charter, what you want has been unconstitutional since 1982.

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Never mind restricting immigration based on ethnicity or culture, that all went away in 1982, but moreover,  if you even try to bring that up as an issue, you are subject to both HRT lawsuit and potentially criminal charges for Hate Speech.

The leftist kooks took this country over a long time ago, what you are advocating for is Thought Crime in Canada now.

"Muslim men discriminate against women"?  It is literally a criminal offence to speak that in Canada now.

Your choices are; suck it up and learn to live with ever more of that, or overthrow the constitution, make up your minds.

All that shit they used to do pre-1982, directing who could come in, directing where they could go, that's all against the law now.

So long as you cling to "Canada", you will live under the totalitarian rule of the Liberal Party of Canada dogma, and no, the Cuckservatives will not save you.

The Cons don't  even want to because immigrants are now a big part of their base, but even if they wanted to, they can't, because it's unconstitutional.

Edited by Dougie93

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On 5/13/2019 at 2:34 PM, Argus said:

 Only 42% of Somali men who came here decades ago are employed. The rest live on welfare, and they get bigger cheques with every kid they have.

It's ridiculous that people keep getting more and more money the more kids they have. Basically, they more of a burden they are to society the more they are rewarded.

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

It's ridiculous that people keep getting more and more money the more kids they have. Basically, they more of a burden they are to society the more they are rewarded.

The government wants more kids, if you try to say "Somalis shouldn't get that" you're a criminal, that's a crime to say that, they can prosecute you for Hate Speech.

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22 hours ago, dialamah said:

This is just such ongoing bullchit.  Our country offers freedom and equality for *everyone*, not just first settlers or "old stock" Canadians.  If people come here and present a case for some kind of accommodation, our country gives them that right.  That is part of what makes Canada (and the States, for that matter) great.   Snowflakes crying foul because OMG a new Canadian is allowed to do something they've never seen before are the ones who don't understand (or accept) Canada.   And it's funny that, when asked, these people can't really describe any way in which Canada's culture has changed because "immigrants demanded that we change to make them happy" - other than to become ever-more progressive in terms of human rights and equality.   

 

You're totally off topic dialamah. 

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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

The government wants more kids, if you try to say "Somalis shouldn't get that" you're a criminal, that's a crime to say that, they can prosecute you for Hate Speech.

If the government wants more kids then they should make daycare cheaper. 

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

If the government wants more kids then they should make daycare cheaper. 

Immigrant women don't need daycare, they stay home and raise the kids while the husband goes off to work, just like the British used to before leftist Feminism became the norm.

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Understand that if you want to go back to the Canada of the 1950's, that's literally going to require a revolution to overthrow the constitution, and plausibly borderline fascism to terrorize the left into submission.

Not Hitler and the Nazis per se, but something  like Franco and the Phalange.  

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The left is not going to vote for you, they outnumber you, they can outvote you, so unless you're prepared to use brute force and terror, don't waste your time  complaining.

Edited by Dougie93

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It's like women who are uncomfortable with Muslim men being allowed in, have they considered what it would take to put a stop to it?

Are they prepared to unleash someone like me upon the leftist establishment?

Because it wouldn't be pretty. They would fight back.  We'd have to use force.  We'd have to kill them.  Not just men.  Women.  Children.

We'd have to get up to our armpits in blood.

Are you prepared to go to war? Are your prepared to liquidate people?  What are you prepared to do, to overthrow the constitution?

You want to overthrow Allende? That's going to require Pinochet, lefties would have to get chucked out of helicopters, make no mistake.

Canada is majority leftist bleeding heart Muslim huggers, and they wrote the constitution, there's no way to put a stop to it without force.

You're not going to get a law passed, that will be overthrown by the judiciary.

You're not going to win an election to overthrow the Charter, you don't got the votes.

So what do you want?   What are you gonna do?  There is no democratic solution.

You're not prepared to stage a coup de tat, you're not prepared to use force, and you're not even close to voting it out, so what are wasting your time complaining about it for? 

Move on, it's a done deal, this fight was over, in 1982.

Edited by Dougie93

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7 hours ago, dialamah said:

Here is what you fanatics from the far fringes of the right don't ever seem to understand. 

I'm a fanatic from the far fringes, and immigrants don't bother me at all.

In fact immigrants are some of my best allies against the commies.

It's natural born Canadians who are the lefty lunatics, most immigrants are right wing nutjobs.

If I point out one of the college campus loonie academics to an immigrant, the immigrant will say "hang that communist!"

If I ask an immigrant what he thinks about intersectionality, diversity, equity, blah, blah, blah?   "Hang those communists!"

Immigrants tend to hate the commies, so the lefties are importing their own demographic doom here.

This is why the Conservatives aren't going to take an anti-immigrant position, Asian, South Asian and Southeast Asian immigrants are their constituents.

What's their number one issue?  Business.   What don't they like?  Taxes, regulations, and liberals.

Edited by Dougie93

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On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 2:15 PM, WestCanMan said:

They were never forced in the past. They just didn't receive food and shelter on a silver platter, nor were they asked what we could do to make our country more to their liking, so they had to work for everything and learn a language. 

 

You bring up a point. Sometimes government intervention takes away the incentive from people on an individual level to change. I think I would prefer to use the word "adapt" or "change" more than the word assimilate in this discussion although it probably means the same. However people won't change, if there is nothing in it for them to make the change. If people are given a message intentionally or unintentionally by government there is nor reason to change, they won't.

At this time if you come to Canada as a new Canadian, your need to adapt, change, assimilate, what-ever word we use, will of course depend on the personal situation of your family. If government services provide certain levels of services, those same services could prevent, delay or take away the incentive to change.

So I think we can ask for the purposes of this discussion, has the government made it too easy not to feel the need to change with certain muli-cultural policies? If so why and when does a multi-cultural policy go too far  and discourage new Canadians from feeling they have to change.

I agree with Dialamah that as a general rule when we force people to do anything rather than have them make the decision to do it with their own free will, it may trigger the opposite effect i.e., resentment and resistance to change. People as a general rule need to know there are positive consequences to changing and negative consequences to not changing so they understand it makes sense to change. If you simply threaten someone without them able to see the positive consequences of changing-they don't really change, they mimic what they think you want from them (passive-aggressive resistance) and resist your change  and cling to their status quo when its not detectable to the people demanding the behaviour they don't like but feel forced to conform to.

Also "Forcing" is  a word that then requires asking, how do you "force"? What enforcement tool(s) will you use-cattle prods...education camps....cultural police?

I am not sure then "forcing" is realistic unless you want to have some sort of objective tool to measure how much you want people to change and which tools you create to enforce the change.

So I think the answer might be re-examining multi-cultural policy to emphasize not just the values people bring to Canada, but the values Canada already has and how the values we already have are an essential part of Canada that in a multi-cultural context we want all Canadians of any culture to respect and honour.

Then we need to encourage multi-cultural organizations that assist new Canadians to talk about Canadian values and what new Canadians should expect to be comfortable with and support once they come to Canada. Then we again could revisit what business and tax incentives the provinces and federal government can create to encourage new Canadians to move to smaller towns and get away from cities. Then let's spend a little but more time teaching aboriginal and Canadian history and geography in school curriculums.

I think Wes' s points was when government did not provide as much assistance to immigrants which all of Canada is really, people could not rely on government, and had no choice but to swim and sink, so we need to know which government services have gone too far in stripping people of feeling they have any need to change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rue

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19 hours ago, dialamah said:

Why?  Do you think they'd feel better having bombs dropped on them while they starved?  Or maybe being beaten and raped with no chance of legal intervention while begging on the street is preferable to them? 

Not all of them, of course, but many of the people Argus criticizes come from places where employment is low and violence and lawlessness are high.  Why would they "beg to go back"?

The narrative that they are lazy and are only interested in taking advantage of our social assistance system is no more true than the narrative that they're so discriminated against that they can't get a job despite all their best efforts.  Doscrimination amd bigotry play a part, lack of skills and education play a part, and for some "easy living" is no doubt true.  None of those things by themselves is the whole problem, they are all part of the whole.

Maybe I misworded myself. I agree with providing support for convention refugees. Beyond that though, I'd be in favour of recognizing a foreign passport as equal to an open work visa.

Edited by Machjo

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