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Native inquiry an orgy of progressive guilt-mongering

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8 hours ago, jacee said:

Nonsense.

The truth is as posted, and you wouldn't respond: 

Maintaining the lie that support for Indigenous people comes from Canadian taxpayers is a heinous, divisive and devious government strategy to sustain systemic racism against Indigenous Peoples, to cover up federal government embezzlement of Indigenous funds and to convince Canadians that the "final solution" to the Indigenous "problem" is to force them to fully assimilate, with intent to destroy them as Indigenous Nations. That systemic racism filters down through all public services, including policing.

Of course, some people don't care about those financial realities of Canada since their denigration of Indigenous Peoples is just one aspect of their racism.

White supremacists like Faith Goldy, for example, never change their racist tune due to new information, because their tune is purely about racism, not really about funding or any other excuses. They're just as likely to be out on street corners bleating against Muslims too. Lol

Land and taxes are not enough but taxpayers also have to create a “trust fund”, basically another pot of no strings attached money.  I’d like to know what percentage of annual collected government tax revenue goes to Indigenous stuff outside or publicly funded health and education systems, which Indigenous freely access.  I’d also like to know Indigenous unemployment levels versus the non-Indigenous population and how much of their income they contribute to government revenues as compared to the non-Indigenous population.  It will be interesting because Indigenous earning income on reserves don’t pay income taxes, and there are other tax breaks.  Also, higher education is free for Indigenous.  I think if voters had all of this data there would be very different concerns among the public, so why don’t we drop the leftist rhetoric and focus on helping vulnerable women and girls, the topic at hand, which is clearly about more than just money for Indigenous and colonialism.  In the spirit of self-determination, what are Indigenous peoples doing to solve this problem on the reserves, considering that two thirds of the perpetrators of these crimes are Indigenous?  

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10 hours ago, jacee said:

Nonsense.

The truth is as posted, and you wouldn't respond: 

Maintaining the lie that support for Indigenous people comes from Canadian taxpayers is a heinous, divisive and devious government strategy to sustain systemic racism against Indigenous Peoples, to cover up federal government embezzlement of Indigenous funds and to convince Canadians that the "final solution" to the Indigenous "problem" is to force them to fully assimilate, with intent to destroy them as Indigenous Nations. That systemic racism filters down through all public services, including policing.

Conspiritard drivel. The government spends twice as much per capita on natives as it does on anyone else, and natives, on reserves, pay no taxes. Do you imagine this money is looted from some imaginary first nation vault deep beneath Gringotts bank or something?

 

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48 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Prime Minister Harper brought in the 'Transparency Act' . . . . . . we all know what sock puppet Trudeau did with that.

I never understood why that Act was axed by Trudeau and why Natives did not oppose it being axed.  There is a ton of evidence of misuse of funds by tribal chiefs/leadership with zero accountability - to their own people or to the government.  Chiefs and leadership living high on the hog while their reserves are living in squalor.  If I was Native, I'd be all over protesting that.

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11 hours ago, jacee said:

Nonsense.

The truth is as posted, and you wouldn't respond: 

Maintaining the lie that support for Indigenous people comes from Canadian taxpayers is a heinous, divisive and devious government strategy to sustain systemic racism against Indigenous Peoples, to cover up federal government embezzlement of Indigenous funds and to convince Canadians that the "final solution" to the Indigenous "problem" is to force them to fully assimilate, with intent to destroy them as Indigenous Nations. That systemic racism filters down through all public services, including policing.

Of course, some people don't care about those financial realities of Canada since their denigration of Indigenous Peoples is just one aspect of their racism.

White supremacists like Faith Goldy, for example, never change their racist tune due to new information, because their tune is purely about racism, not really about funding or any other excuses. They're just as likely to be out on street corners bleating against Muslims too. Lol

What absolute drivel and Faith Goldy has nothing to do with this.  The gov't allocates multi billions of tax payer dollars a year on Natives, much of which is unaccounted for because as we know, there is no transparency required. 

If they did not live on unsustainable remote reservations and integrate (not assimilate) into society they would have a much better chance at success; in fact, those who do live off reservation do much better than those who do not. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/audience/indigenous.html

 

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4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Land and taxes are not enough but taxpayers also have to create a “trust fund”, basically another pot of no strings attached money.  

Again ... Indigenous Trust Funds are revenues from companies for resource extraction on their traditional lands, via treaties or other agreements, from British colonization to the present. At Confederation, Britain transferred the Trust Funds to Canada. Canada has never provided an accounting for those funds. Some Indigenous Nations are pursuing a full accounting for their Trust Fund monies. That will be interesting ... and not flattering to Canada. Stay tuned ... 

Such revenues continue to accrue and are the logical route to self-sufficiency for Indigenous communities. But their money is accessible only via mountains of paperwork and only if the Minister 'approves'. First Nations are greatly restricted in accessing their own capital to invest in businesses that can provide jobs and revenue to help make their communities self-sustaining, as addressed in this report: 

http://www.naedb-cndea.com/reports/recommendations-on-first-nations-access-to-indian-moneys.PDF

Quote

I’d like to know what percentage of annual collected government tax revenue goes to Indigenous stuff outside or publicly funded health and education systems, which Indigenous freely access.  I’d also like to know Indigenous unemployment levels versus the non-Indigenous population and how much of their income they contribute to government revenues as compared to the non-Indigenous population.

 It will be interesting because Indigenous earning income on reserves don’t pay income taxes, and there are other tax breaks.  Also, higher education is free for Indigenous. I think if voters had all of this data there would be very different concerns among the public.

Have at it. Do the research.

Financial information for each First Nation and for Indigenous Affairs itself is publicly available on their respective websites

 

Quote

 

Have at it. Do the research.

Financial information for each First Nation and for Indigenous Affairs itself is publicly available on their respective websites. 

 

so why don’t we drop the leftist rhetoric and focus on helping vulnerable women and girls, the topic at hand, which is clearly about more than just money for Indigenous and colonialism.  In the spirit of self-determination, what are Indigenous peoples doing to solve this problem on the reserves, considering that two thirds of the perpetrators of these crimes are Indigenous? 

Read the report. 

Edited by jacee
Messed up the post, can't fix it. Lol
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6 hours ago, scribblet said:

What absolute drivel and Faith Goldy has nothing to do with this.  The gov't allocates multi billions of tax payer dollars a year on Natives, much of which is unaccounted for because as we know, there is no transparency required. 

If they did not live on unsustainable remote reservations and integrate (not assimilate) into society they would have a much better chance at success; in fact, those who do live off reservation do much better than those who do not. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/audience/indigenous.html

 

Scribblet please read my response to Zeitgeist above re 'Indian' Trust Funds (embezzled) and current revenue streams (not released). 

To clarify ... Treaties and other legal agreements - made by Indigenous Nations for uses of their land from British colonization to today - would have been more than sufficient to maintain their communities, if they were allowed to access their own money. But they were not. And yet the their trust funds are depleted with no government accounting of where the money went. 

One example: A small city mayor once acknowledged that part of the city was built on land leased from an Indigenous Nation, but the lease amounts were never paid. He stated today's value of that money, and that debt alone was far more than the total amount that has been allocated to their community since Confederation. And that's only one unpaid debt of many owing to them that hasn't even been paid to their Trust Fund. 

Canada has 'misplaced' far more money from 'Indian' Trust Funds than it has ever allocated to support their communities.

Instead of complaining about "taxpayers" money, ask your MP to tell you where the 'Indian' Trust Funds have gone since Confederation.

That's how they intended to support themselves. 

Racists like Faith Goldy have a lot to do with the denigration, dismissal and dehumanization of Indigenous people.  

So do governments. 

Edited by jacee
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5 hours ago, jacee said:

Again ... Indigenous Trust Funds are revenues from companies for resource extraction on their traditional lands, via treaties or other agreements, from British colonization to the present. At Confederation, Britain transferred the Trust Funds to Canada. Canada has never provided an accounting for those funds. Some Indigenous Nations are pursuing a full accounting for their Trust Fund monies. That will be interesting ... and not flattering to Canada. Stay tuned ... 

Such revenues continue to accrue and are the logical route to self-sufficiency for Indigenous communities. But their money is accessible only via mountains of paperwork and only if the Minister 'approves'. First Nations are greatly restricted in accessing their own capital to invest in businesses that can provide jobs and revenue to help make their communities self-sustaining, as addressed in this report: 

http://www.naedb-cndea.com/reports/recommendations-on-first-nations-access-to-indian-moneys.PDF

Why is it about a handover of more money that will have to come from taxpayers rather than doing what everybody else does: earn money through work and send a portion of earnings to government in taxes to pay for public services?  It just looks like a demand for free money.  Resource development is one thing.  Bands already receive royalties for resource extraction on their land.  Also, Indigenous are free to work and they should.  How much hunting and gathering and living off the land is going on in these reserves?  I imagine that in the far north it’s plausible to carry on an old way of life, not that everyone would choose it.  The more this discussion wears on the more unnecessary this reserve system plight seems.  I think we’re stuck with it because Indigenous aren’t coming to a consensus on its replacement.  Why?  It seems mostly about land and money, which isn’t related to vulnerable females or an apartheid reserve system or a bad Indian Act, unless it brings money and land...You promote this notion that somehow rent is owed to people who largely haven’t continuously lived on said land and haven’t worked it.  Why would any sane, informed voters support that?  I’m not talking about what may be some clear incidences of sections of land that should now be included in Indigenous territory.  Let the courts decide that.  But if government is being asked to service that land, there has to be a tax base from within that land.  Things cost.  What a strange mentality that asks money for nothing in return.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Why is it about a handover of more money that will have to come from taxpayers rather than doing what everybody else does: earn money through work and send a portion of earnings to government in taxes to pay for public services?  It just looks like a demand for free money.  

Looks more like trying to collect rent from a deadbeat tenant to me.

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29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Looks more like trying to collect rent from a deadbeat tenant to me.

Who is the landlord?  What is the property?  What has the landlord provided the tenant?  How much should be paid?  You’ve really bought into the land acknowledgments. How much of your income are you willing to give to the “stewards”?  After all, aren’t they paving your roads, collecting your garbage, and paving your streets?   

Edited by Zeitgeist

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Money was the driving force for European settlers and became the government answer for "aboriginal problems". Canadians have allowed our government to spend enough to quiet the noise without addressing the real problems. Now we complain about how much money is spent because we see little return on the investment. We see our own hardships as equal to theirs. Who would thrive when forced to forfeit an active family based culture and  live on a reservation? Who would improve themselves when their way of life is replaced with a welfare check? We do not see our responsibility for  breaking a successful culture that was different from ours. Indifference and avoidance have created additional, modern problems that have become obvious to people all over the world.Throwing money at people who were treated badly was never the answer needed. Tolerance, respect and acceptance from Canadians are needed by ALL Canadians. And there is a "return on the investment".  Aboriginal Canadians are gradually overcoming the difficulties. Many have fully assimilated, some will continue to struggle for a few more generations.  Some are learning to keep the positive, historically significant Canadian aboriginal culture alive while embracing the positive modern Canadian life.

The current government is the first Canadian government to try to find a realistic answer to end the horror of Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls (MMIWG). If voters allow it the work will continue and a solution will be found that will transition to a solution that benefits all Canadians.

 

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3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

1.Who is the landlord?  2. What is the property?  3. What has the landlord provided the tenant?  4. How much should be paid?  You’ve really bought into the land acknowledgments. 5. How much of your income are you willing to give to the “stewards”?  6. After all, aren’t they paving your roads, collecting your garbage, and paving your streets?   

1. Human beings.

2. Earth

3. Everything we need and then some.

4. Everything they need and then some.

5. As much as I'm able but I think you should pay more.

6. We're all doing that.

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43 minutes ago, HeadLines said:

Money was the driving force for European settlers and became the government answer for "aboriginal problems". Canadians have allowed our government to spend enough to quiet the noise without addressing the real problems. Now we complain about how much money is spent because we see little return on the investment. We see our own hardships as equal to theirs. Who would thrive when forced to forfeit an active family based culture and  live on a reservation? Who would improve themselves when their way of life is replaced with a welfare check? We do not see our responsibility for  breaking a successful culture that was different from ours. Indifference and avoidance have created additional, modern problems that have become obvious to people all over the world.Throwing money at people who were treated badly was never the answer needed. Tolerance, respect and acceptance from Canadians are needed by ALL Canadians. And there is a "return on the investment".  Aboriginal Canadians are gradually overcoming the difficulties. Many have fully assimilated, some will continue to struggle for a few more generations.  Some are learning to keep the positive, historically significant Canadian aboriginal culture alive while embracing the positive modern Canadian life.

The current government is the first Canadian government to try to find a realistic answer to end the horror of Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls (MMIWG). If voters allow it the work will continue and a solution will be found that will transition to a solution that benefits all Canadians.

 

I appreciate your idealism, which I want to believe in and that always keeps me in the middle politically.  The solutions, however, cannot come from the non-Indigenous because there will be blowback and blame for any outsider solutions. The other major consideration is that within Indigenous communities there are two countervailing opinions, one that wants to maintain the broken system because they enjoy the benefits despite the compromises of life on the reserve versus those who would rather get complete control over their destiny — private land ownership, self-collection of a form of taxation from income like a municipal/provincial tax to pay for local services, major control of local resource development, and gradual reduction of outside injections of tax funding and the benefits of an old world “Indian status”.  We all realize that the federal government will always have to provide some infrastructure and services and that private companies will need to be involved to make resource development possible.  I think we all accept that non-Indigenous taxpayers will continue to foot the bill for that work.  However, as long as there isn’t a consensus for a path forward from Indigenous peoples that doesn’t involve additional money from taxpayers, this holding pattern will continue.  Simply demanding more no strings attached funding from taxpayers likely won’t fly with voters, so sure, work out land claims through the courts and work to find solutions, but they can’t be non-Indigenous solutions and they probably can’t require more outside funding.  For those reasons governments need to take important measures on clear cut issues like protecting vulnerable women and children and move on to other issues.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

1. Human beings.

2. Earth

3. Everything we need and then some.

4. Everything they need and then some.

5. As much as I'm able but I think you should pay more.

6. We're all doing that.

Those are unspecific feel good platitudes that solve nothing.  

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32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I appreciate your idealism, which I want to believe in and that always keeps me in the middle politically.  The solutions, however, cannot come from the non-Indigenous because there will be blowback and blame for any outsider solutions. The other major consideration is that within Indigenous communities there are two countervailing opinions, one that wants to maintain the broken system because they enjoy the benefits despite the compromises of life on the reserve versus those who would rather get complete control over their destiny — private land ownership, self-collection of a form of taxation from income like a municipal/provincial tax to pay for local services, major control of local resource development, and gradual reduction of outside injections of tax funding and the benefits of an old world “Indian status”.  We all realize that the federal government will always have to provide some infrastructure and services and that private companies will need to be involved to make resource development possible.  I think we all accept that non-Indigenous taxpayers will continue to foot the bill for that work.  However, as long as there isn’t a consensus for a path forward from Indigenous peoples that doesn’t involve additional money from taxpayers, this holding pattern will continue.  Simply demanding more no strings attached funding from taxpayers likely won’t fly with voters, so sure, work out land claims through the courts and work to find solutions, but they can’t be non-Indigenous solutions and they probably can’t require more outside funding.  For those reasons governments need to take important measures on clear cut issues like protecting vulnerable women and children and move on to other issues.  

I guess the MMIWG report is even more important because it is predominantly directed by indigenous women AND men with assistance from people who can help make something happen. There will never be the consensus you mention because indigenous people are people. Like all groups of people there are leaders and followers, self serving and community-minded, greedy and needy.  Most that I know are doing the best they can for their families. All of them have lost family members to violence or addiction and they push on for a better life. 

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53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Those are unspecific feel good platitudes that solve nothing.  

These are very specific moral and ethical stepping stones towards the future - fundamental principles.

Edited by eyeball

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2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Simply demanding more no strings attached funding from taxpayers

Repeating this lie, one or many times, does not make it true.

Nobody's income tax money is necessary to fund Indigenous communities. Their funding comes out of their revenue shares from industrial and business operations on their traditional territories.

The fact that Canada dumps all revenues into one General Revenues account, including Indigenous revenue shares, and takes all expenses/budget allocations out of that account, including First Nations budgets, is misleading, and very poor accounting. 

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1 hour ago, jacee said:

Repeating this lie, one or many times, does not make it true.

Nobody's income tax money is necessary to fund Indigenous communities. Their funding comes out of their revenue shares from industrial and business operations on their traditional territories.

The fact that Canada dumps all revenues into one General Revenues account, including Indigenous revenue shares, and takes all expenses/budget allocations out of that account, including First Nations budgets, is misleading, and very poor accounting. 

You’re wrong.  Bands/reserves do receive portions of resource development.  Read about IBA’s, which are direct and confidential agreements between bands and private industry through which substantial moneys flow to Indigenous locals. https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/201529E

Edited by Zeitgeist

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1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

^^^ So . . . . . what's your point ?

That trying to navigate your way through this issue in the absence of principles is hopeless.  Consider Zeitgeist's decision to ignore the definition for genocide that the MMIW report clearly laid out for example. Doing this has apparently left him with a sense that the dust is already settling around native issues and all that remains is to dot a few i's and cross a few t's.

Sorry to pee on your pancakes but it's going to take generations.  Anyone concerned about the cost should realize that kicking and screaming every inch of the way will only add to it.  

Edited by eyeball

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If the inquiry and authors of the report got the definition of genocide so wrong then why hasn't the UN objected to their misappropriation?

I admit this question is like throwing a flasher with a hot hoochy and barbed hook into a hungry lingcod's face but it still needs to be thrown out there.

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3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

If the inquiry and authors of the report got the definition of genocide so wrong then why hasn't the UN objected to their misappropriation?

 

If MMIW be "genocide", why hasn't Canada and/or the ICC initiated the required investigations and prosecution of individual and state actors ?

Canada is a signatory to the Rome Statute (International Criminal Court).

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Organization of American States wants to probe MMIWG allegation of ‘genocide’

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If MMIW be "genocide", why hasn't Canada and/or the ICC initiated the required investigations and prosecution of individual and state actors ?

Canada is a signatory to the Rome Statute (International Criminal Court).

Give it time. In the meamtine...

Organization of American States wants to probe MMIWG allegation of ‘genocide’

I can't think of anything that will invite more of the same than a bunch of Canadians whining about it and disavowing our responsibility.  "Wah...but whaddabout this that and the next thing? ...wah"

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Organization of American States wants to probe MMIWG allegation of ‘genocide’

Give it time. In the meamtine...

 

The logical action that would stem from a Canadian government finding and admission of "genocide" would be more investigations and prosecution of the state and individual actors for "genocide" crimes.   Canada would be in violation of the ICC treaty were this not to happen.

 

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2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The logical action that would stem from a Canadian government finding and admission of "genocide" would be more investigations and prosecution of the state and individual actors for "genocide" crimes.   Canada would be in violation of the ICC treaty were this not to happen.

The tone of the whining coming from the usual suspects is what highlights the issue the most and I bet it starts the globe rolling towards some grand slam truth and reconciliation commission that deals with the ongoing issues of colonialism that still plague millions of people around the planet.  Like I said anyone concerned about the cost should really be giving some serious thought to how much kicking and screaming adds to it.

Reality has a progressive bias, its like some physical law of nature that unfolds like a fractal.

Edited by eyeball

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