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Native inquiry an orgy of progressive guilt-mongering

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On 7/5/2019 at 7:48 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Well I live and work in Ontario and have worked closely with CAS.  In what jurisdiction have you worked closely with CAS?

Again, your work with non-Indigenous kids and CAS/CCAS in Ontario is not very relevant to this topic at all. (Derail strategy?) 

I don't believe that CAS/CCAS even operate in the west, primarily RCMP jurisdictions, where the problems of both missing Indigenous women and missing children are rampant.

Since you mentioned Thunder Bay, I'll just clarify ... the primary problem with Police in Thunder Bay is that the 30+ year epidemic of deaths of Indigenous teens (mostly male) whose bodies were generally found in the river or the Lake were ALL dismissed by police as "accidental death", 'They got drunk and drowned' being the usual conclusion, with no further investigation. 

On November 3, 2016, I initiated this 
[OIPRD] systemic review to investigate and respond to these concerns. That the questions raised by Indigenous people in 1993 remained as valid as they did some 25 years ago, was deeply troubling, and demanded an urgent 
and comprehensive response.

Under OIPRD oversight now, the TB Chief of Police has been replaced, and cases are being re-opened and re-investigated with external supervision. 

I highlight this because ... the RCMP data reported re the MMIW Inquiry addressed only "Murdered and Missing" Indigenous women. The RCMP made no mention at all of the possibility of miscategorized 'accidental deaths', overdoses or other dismissed-and-uninvestigated deaths of Indigenous women nation-wide.

For example I'm aware of one case reported to the MMIW Inquiry,

20170530_MMIWG_Whitehorse_Public_Vol_1_combined.pdf

a serial killer whose weapon was alcohol - dosing Indigenous women with lethal levels of alcohol once they were incapacitated. 5 Indigenous women died that way, deaths dismissed, uninvestigated beyond 'alcohol overdose', then a white woman died, her family raised the alarm and were listened to and a real investigation began. Then another Indigenous woman died and finally police surveillance caught the serial killer in the act of intentionally over-dosing a semi-conscious Indigenous woman (who survived). The serial killer was convicted of Manslaughter for the death of the white woman.

Just an example ... so, there is still much investigative work to be done on the systemic racism in actions and in reporting of all Police forces, and perhaps especially the RCMP given their primary policing role in largely suburban/rural western jurisdictions, a huge swathe of Canada, and the first places of the protests that eventually gave rise to the MMIW Inquiry.

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1 hour ago, jacee said:

Again, your work with non-Indigenous kids and CAS/CCAS in Ontario is not very relevant to this topic at all. (Derail strategy?) 

I don't believe that CAS/CCAS even operate in the west, primarily RCMP jurisdictions, where the problems of both missing Indigenous women and missing children are rampant.

Since you mentioned Thunder Bay, I'll just clarify ... the primary problem with Police in Thunder Bay is that the 30+ year epidemic of deaths of Indigenous teens (mostly male) whose bodies were generally found in the river or the Lake were ALL dismissed by police as "accidental death", 'They got drunk and drowned' being the usual conclusion, with no further investigation. 

On November 3, 2016, I initiated this 
[OIPRD] systemic review to investigate and respond to these concerns. That the questions raised by Indigenous people in 1993 remained as valid as they did some 25 years ago, was deeply troubling, and demanded an urgent 
and comprehensive response.

Under OIPRD oversight now, the TB Chief of Police has been replaced, and cases are being re-opened and re-investigated with external supervision. 

I highlight this because ... the RCMP data reported re the MMIW Inquiry addressed only "Murdered and Missing" Indigenous women. The RCMP made no mention at all of the possibility of miscategorized 'accidental deaths', overdoses or other dismissed-and-uninvestigated deaths of Indigenous women nation-wide.

For example I'm aware of one case reported to the MMIW Inquiry,

20170530_MMIWG_Whitehorse_Public_Vol_1_combined.pdf

a serial killer whose weapon was alcohol - dosing Indigenous women with lethal levels of alcohol once they were incapacitated. 5 Indigenous women died that way, deaths dismissed, uninvestigated beyond 'alcohol overdose', then a white woman died, her family raised the alarm and were listened to and a real investigation began. Then another Indigenous woman died and finally police surveillance caught the serial killer in the act of intentionally over-dosing a semi-conscious Indigenous woman (who survived). The serial killer was convicted of Manslaughter for the death of the white woman.

Just an example ... so, there is still much investigative work to be done on the systemic racism in actions and in reporting of all Police forces, and perhaps especially the RCMP given their primary policing role in largely suburban/rural western jurisdictions, a huge swathe of Canada, and the first places of the protests that eventually gave rise to the MMIW Inquiry.

I’m well aware of the coverage of the police in Thunder Bay.  There was a clip played on rotation showing a policewoman holding down an Indigenous woman.  I’m very familiar with the multiple deaths down by the river.  It’s all very sad.  There was the case of the man who threw a tire iron out a window at an Indigenous woman.  I would simply say that while racism exists among some police and that some crimes weren’t as thoroughly investigated because of stereotyping and assumptions about substance abuse leading to drowning, in some cases (most?) it was drowning due to substance abuse and in some cases (most?), the Thunder Bay police and RCMP did deploy resources much as they would to non-Indigenous crimes.  You’re making assumptions about motives that depict police and non-Indigenous as racist.  Police work can be very difficult.  What happens when Indigenous students in an Indigenous school living with an Indigenous family engage in reckless behaviour that could result in death by substance abuse or drowning?  Do we say, “Oh well they’re victims of the system?”  Of course not.  We try prevention to reduce suicide and substance abuse.  You can’t blame it all on police and residential schools that no longer exist.  The broken reserve system with its incentives to stay on the reserve for tax breaks and Indian Status continue to exist and many Indigenous want to keep this system.  

Again, as with self-government, I think it’s important that Indigenous have their own community policing as well as some form of Child and Family Services.  While I’m sure some police and CFS case workers are blameworthy, I doubt it’s the majority.  In the end, it’s best to turn over as much of this work to Indigenous within current funding levels as possible and for governments and police forces to implement sensible policies to root out racism.  

In terms of personal and legal responsibility, we are all responsible for what we do.  Bad behaviour has to be rooted out no matter the race of the perpetrator.  There is plenty of blame to go around, in and out of Indigenous communities.  It’s what we do going forward that counts.  

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Thunder Bay police to review nine Indigenous deaths in response to independent report

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-thunder-bay-police-to-re-investigate-nine-indigenous-deaths-in/

Thunder Bay police will review investigations into the deaths of nine Indigenous people in the city going back more than a decade, responding to an independent report that found racist attitudes on the force contributed to the mishandling of such probes in the past.

Police chief Sylvie Hauth said Tuesday that the cases would be reviewed by outside experts as well as members of the police force and could eventually be reopened. She made the announcement at a meeting of the Thunder Bay Police Services Board, a civilian body overseeing the force that was itself disbanded and reformed since December over similar charges of systemic racism.

In a December, 2018, report on relations between the Thunder Bay police and Indigenous people, the Office of the Independent Police Review Director (OIPRD), a civilian oversight agency, found that nine death investigations conducted by the force were so “problematic” they should be reinvestigated.

In responding to that call Tuesday, Chief Hauth said the nine cases will be handed over to a three-tiered oversight body that will be comprised of local First Nations leaders and outside investigators, as well as members of the Thunder Bay Police Service. (Officers involved in the original probes will be barred from participating.) The oversight body will determine whether to reinvestigate certain cases, police spokesman Scott Paradis said.

 

Edited by jacee
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21 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re making assumptions about motives that depict police ... as racist

That's already proven.

The Office of Independent Police Review Director is the body that investigates complaints about police performance in Ontario. Their investigation found that racism in the force, the Chief and the Police Services Board were factors in the poor investigations deaths of Indigenous youths.

*The Chief of Police was replaced.

*The Police Services Board was disbanded. 

*Deaths of Indigenous youths are being independently reviewed. 

Relevance to this thread topic re the MMIW inquiry:

RCMP reported only on Missing and Murdered Indigenous women. Similar to the Thunder Bay situation, many suspicious deaths of Indigenous women, written off as 'accident', etc., were not considered. 

Edited by jacee
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48 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's already proven.

The Office of Independent Police Review Director is the body that investigates complaints about police performance in Ontario. Their investigation found that racism in the force, the Chief and the Police Services Board were factors in the poor investigations deaths of Indigenous youths.

*The Chief of Police was replaced.

*The Police Services Board was disbanded. 

*Deaths of Indigenous youths are being independently reviewed. 

Relevance to this thread topic re the MMIW inquiry:

RCMP reported only on Missing and Murdered Indigenous women. Similar to the Thunder Bay situation, many suspicious deaths of Indigenous women, written off as 'accident', etc., were not considered. 

I’m not denying for a second that racism exists in police forces, just as it exists in any profession and the wider society.  The issue is whether it’s some bad apples versus a systemic problem.  I do think in some forces , RCMP included, it was systemic, not officially so but probably in terms of deployment of resources based on stereotype assumptions.  I think and hope that the systemic problem is being addressed, and ways of doing this include changing system leadership, weeding out bad apples, raising awareness, and seriously revamping investigative and other processes.  For example, carding is over in most GTA forces.  Racial profiling is another sketchy business that has been seriously curtailed.  

I think what the inquiry is most concerned about is whether as many resources and as much care was given to MMIW as non-Indigenous MMW.  Until recently the answer is clearly no, but there are complexities around many of these cases, as mentioned, such as the lack of an identity trail for more transient individuals, as well as the disconnect between the Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities.  I think the latter relates to the broken reserve system that not enough Indigenous people want to change.  I think that system maintains the sense of disenfranchisement and alienation among Indigenous. 

Edited by Zeitgeist
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17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m not denying for a second that racism exists in police forces, just as it exists in any profession and the wider society.  The issue is whether it’s some bad apples versus a systemic problem.  I do think in some forces , RCMP included, it was systemic,

Yes, it's systemic, but the whole system not just police. 

The intent to destroy Indigenous Peoples "as such" has always come from government ... because business needs their land, needs "certainty". 

Quote

I thinkthe latter relates to the broken reserve system that not enough Indigenous people want to change.  I think that system maintains the sense of disenfranchisement and alienation among Indigenous.

I think involuntary removals of Indigenous Peoples are no longer possible. 

It isn't anybody's business where somebody chooses to live.

Edited by jacee
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8 hours ago, jacee said:

Yes, it's systemic, but the whole system not just police. 

The intent to destroy Indigenous Peoples "as such" has always come from government ... because business needs their land, needs "certainty". 

I think involuntary removals of Indigenous Peoples are no longer possible. 

It isn't anybody's business where somebody chooses to live.

Unfortunately many people choose their own enslavement.  I guess it becomes comfortable in a way because it’s familiar. No one is getting involuntarily removed.  

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45 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Unfortunately many people choose their own enslavement. 

Yeah, like you, with your totalitarian sycophancy to Canadian Confederation no matter how lawlessly corrupt and incompetent it becomes.

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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

Yeah, like you, with your totalitarian sycophancy to Canadian Confederation no matter how lawlessly corrupt and incompetent it becomes.

Canada totalitarian?  It’s about the freest country in the world.  

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada totalitarian?  It’s about the freest country in the world.  

Totalitarian means you do not distinguish between yourself as an individual and the state, and so you limit your own freedoms without that even being imposed on you.

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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Yeah, like you, with your totalitarian sycophancy to Canadian Confederation no matter how lawlessly corrupt and incompetent it becomes.

Says the guy with an undying love for some overseas group of in-bred ne'er do well's . . . . . :rolleyes:

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14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada totalitarian?  It’s about the freest country in the world.  

Some people just have no sense of purportion.

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7 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Says the guy with an undying love for some overseas group of in-bred ne'er do well's . . . . . :rolleyes:

Her Majesty has never let me down, it's entirely a contractual agreement, Her Majesty has held up her end, I hold up mine.  

If Her Majesty were to break faith with me, then I am released from my contract and will become completely an American republican at that juncture.

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26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Some people just have no sense of purportion.

Exactly, speech banning, gun grabbing, climate doomsaying progressives are totalitarian in their total lack of proportion vis a vis centralized state power over individual liberty.

And that is why Canada in particular, is no longer worthy of being defended nor upheld, because Canada fails to protect liberty against these totalitarian mobs of proto Bolsheviks, rather in fact Canada actively enables them.

Edited by Dougie93

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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Exactly, speech banning, gun grabbing, climate doomsaying progressives are totalitarian in their total lack of proportion vis a vis centralized state power over individual liberty.

And that is why Canada in particular, is no longer worthy of being defended nor upheld, because Canada fails to protect liberty against these totalitarian mobs of proto Bolsheviks, rather in fact Canada actively enables them.

Your comparisons between the Canadian government and Bolsheviks in one breath and Hitler in another illustrate the lack of proportionality.  You seem to want to live under some kind of tense and violent social order or to project that onto Canada, which is a complete mischaracterization of a relatively peaceful, open, and prosperous country.  It sounds like paranoia. I’ll try to suspend judgement.  

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15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Your comparisons between the Canadian government and Bolsheviks in one breath and Hitler in another illustrate the lack of proportionality.  You seem to want to live under some kind of tense and violent social order or to project that onto Canada, which is a complete mischaracterization of a relatively peaceful, open, and prosperous country.  It sounds like paranoia. I’ll try to suspend judgement.  

You seem want to whitewash Canada as being benign when in fact Canada is clearly not, we're talking about a federation which has conceded to committing genocide which is the stock and trade of the Bolsheviks and Nazis, I mean, the Canadian police state has by its own admission kidnapped peoples children and sent them to what were effectively child rape camps, Canada's crimes are legion, Canada is a racist apartheid state committing mass murder, by its own terms and statements.

It's not my judgement, Canada is not even trying to deny it. 

Canada literally spent a hundred million dollars  just to issue a report informing me that Canada is genocidal.

It's not me saying it, Canada said it, I'm just taking them at their word.

Don't brame me, roundeye, if Canada is making a liar of you.

Edited by Dougie93

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8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You seem want to whitewash Canada as being benign when in fact Canada is clearly not, we're talking about a federation which has conceded to committing genocide which is the stock and trade of the Bolsheviks and Nazis, I mean, the Canadian police state has by its own admission kidnapped peoples children and sent them to what were effectively child rape camps, Canada's crimes are legion, Canada is a racist apartheid state committing mass murder, by its own terms and statements.

It's not my judgement, Canada is not even trying to deny it.  Canada literally spend a hundred million dollars  just to inform me that Canada is genocidal.

You’re full of it.  Rape has always been against the law.  I suppose you support U.S. Manifest Destiny, which ended Tecumseh’s dream of an Indian country and resulted in wars on Indigenous in the U.S..  You may be right though that the substantial increases in funding of Indigenous affairs and both the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and the Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women has brought the Canadian government overblown accusations of genocide and increased expectations of what governments can provide people beyond what is reasonable and supportable by the public.  We will see in the next federal election.  Support of Trudeau is down to ten percent among Indigenous, yet the Conservatives won’t give as much attention to this file.  I didn’t initially vote for or support Harper in his first mandate, but he foretold all of this mess unfolding and saw Trudeau’s naivety. 

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re full of it.  Rape has always been against the law.

Odd how Canada would, in light of that, have the RCMP kidnap children from their parents to send them to "schools" where they were systemically raped and abused.

Rape was against the law in Nazi Germany too, big whoop.

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re full of it.  Rape has always been against the law. 

 

Not true....spousal rape was not illegal in Canada until 1983.

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Odd how Canada would, in light of that, have the RCMP kidnap children from their parents to send them to "schools" where they were systemically raped and abused.

Rape was against the law in Nazi Germany too, big whoop.

There was much student to student abuse.  Within all schools there have been forms of abuse, none of which were legal, although corporal punishment in all schools sometimes crossed the line.  Saying the RCMP delivered students to schools where they knew they would be raped as a police policy is a lie.  There were bad apples in schools and the police.  Don’t forget also that some people actually valued education in these schools.  The hardest aspect of some of them was separation from family, which continues today and isn’t avoidable, as well as restrictions on the use of Indigenous language and cultural practices, which no longer occurs.  

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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Saying the RCMP delivered students to schools where they knew they would be raped as a police policy is a lie.

It went on from the 19th century right into the 1990's, I don't accept "we didn't know" as a defense,  when you're talking about a reign of terror which persisted for more than a century,  that's was also the Nazi Germans excuse about the death camps after all.

You're making Canada seem more Nazi by the moment, literally invoking the exact same rubrics the Nazis did to try to abrogate responsibility.

Edited by Dougie93

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Just now, Dougie93 said:

It went on from the 19th century right into the 1990's, I don't accept "we didn't know" as a defense,  when you're talking about a reign of terror which persisted for more than a century,

It didn’t happen like that.  You need to read about residential schools.  At the time they seemed progressive to governments, a leg up for Indigenous, except that they restricted Indigenous practices, which of course is wrong. They thought it an improvement over what seemed at the time substandard living conditions by mainstream social standards.  We still do this today when we pass judgment on conditions in developing countries.  

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It didn’t happen like that.  You need to read about residential schools.  At the time they seemed progressive to governments, a leg up for Indigenous, except that they restricted Indigenous practices, which of course is wrong. They thought it an improvement over what seemed at the time substandard living conditions by mainstream social standards.  We still do this today when we pass judgment on conditions in developing countries.  

It did happen like that, it was kidnapping and systematic rape camps, you are simply proving my case as to you being totalitarian vis a vis Canada, even genocide cannot bring you to end your sycophancy to this apparently abominable regime, abominable by its own terms and statements, hundred million dollar report to tell me all about Genocide with a capital G in black and white on page one.

Edited by Dougie93

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It did happen like that, it was kidnapping and systematic rape camps, you are simply proving my case as to you being totalitarian vis a vis Canada, even genocide cannot bring you to end your sycophancy to this apparently abominable regime, abominable by its own terms and statements, hundred million dollar report to tell me all about Genocide with a capital G in black and white on page one.

You’re inaccurate and use inflammatory language. 

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re inaccurate and use inflammatory language. 

It's Canada's language, Canada is the party which is asserting a genocidal Canada, again, it's not my words, it's Canada's words.

 

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