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A good place to start would be to close the valves on all pipelines leading to Ont.

"What kind of pain is called for," they ask. For starters, the pummeling of Alberta's oil industry, binding emissions-reduction quotas, and a job-killing 150% increase in the amount of emissions that businesses are required to make. Next they want higher gas prices and costlier home energy bills to reduce business and individual oil consumption. They conclude that "infliction of such pain is politically viable."

http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2057

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A good place to start would be to close the valves on all pipelines leading to Ont.

"What kind of pain is called for," they ask. For starters, the pummeling of Alberta's oil industry, binding emissions-reduction quotas, and a job-killing 150% increase in the amount of emissions that businesses are required to make. Next they want higher gas prices and costlier home energy bills to reduce business and individual oil consumption. They conclude that "infliction of such pain is politically viable."

Do I read in this quoted tripe that "Alberta's oil industry is taking a pummeling"... I think that if you participated in the "real world", you'd see that it is the rest of Canada that's taking a pummling from Ralf Crime (or however you spell it).

I note that the quoted article specifies that businesses are required to increase their emissions by 150%. Again, I think the authors might have bought seeds from Mark Emery.... Under Kyoto, the general idea is to reduce emissions.

I looked at the attached "link" and then understood why the facts were all scrambled, the spelling incorrect, and the grammar all wrong.... it was from "The Canadian Taxpayers Federation". Why don't you try quoting a reputable source next time.....

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A good place to start would be to close the valves on all pipelines leading to Ont.

"What kind of pain is called for," they ask. For starters, the pummeling of Alberta's oil industry, binding emissions-reduction quotas, and a job-killing 150% increase in the amount of emissions that businesses are required to make. Next they want higher gas prices and costlier home energy bills to reduce business and individual oil consumption. They conclude that "infliction of such pain is politically viable."

Do I read in this quoted tripe that "Alberta's oil industry is taking a pummeling"... I think that if you participated in the "real world", you'd see that it is the rest of Canada that's taking a pummling from Ralf Crime (or however you spell it).

I note that the quoted article specifies that businesses are required to increase their emissions by 150%. Again, I think the authors might have bought seeds from Mark Emery.... Under Kyoto, the general idea is to reduce emissions.

I looked at the attached "link" and then understood why the facts were all scrambled, the spelling incorrect, and the grammar all wrong.... it was from "The Canadian Taxpayers Federation". Why don't you try quoting a reputable source next time.....

Better read it again.

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Under Kyoto, the general idea is to reduce emissions.

What a ridiculous concept, that isn't in the Canadian plan at all.

The Liberals know that their continual re-election is largely funded by petro-dollars from Alberta, and that to turn off the valves would cripple one of the few cash cows in the nation. Increasingly, a strong Canuckbuck and higher input costs are crippling the competetiveness of Ontario, the only other contributor to buying Canadian voters with their own money.

Nope, the Liberal plan is to buy 'credits' from Russia at an estimated cost of $12 billion to meet the Kyoto targets. It won't reduce emissions anywhere, but it will let the morons who vote for them think the Libs are doing something noble.

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Nope, the Liberal plan is to buy 'credits' from Russia at an estimated cost of $12 billion to meet the Kyoto targets.  It won't reduce emissions anywhere, but it will let the morons who vote for them think the Libs are doing something noble.
I agree that buying credits defeats the spirit of Kyoto. With the 'credits' system, he who has money escapes the rules...

There is a real problem with global warming, and maybe it won't destroy the planet in my lifetime.... but how about our kids and grand-kids ??? Everyone should have to tow the line...

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  • 2 weeks later...

While I have no problem with standing on a farn in the midst of crops, I do have a problem standing on a farm in the midst of flaring gas wells, H2S leaking machinery, and proven health damaging pollution caused by the oil industry.

Everyone in Canada is happy with oil $$$, but farmenrs here in AB are getting pushed around by the EUB, a puppet oil indusrty organization.

http://www.landadvocate.org/

Land Advocate

I can't believe that some people still think that there's no problem with the ways in which we pollute our environment. To them I suggest trying to breathe through an exhaust pipe.

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While I have no problem with standing on a farn in the midst of crops, I do have a problem standing on a farm in the midst of flaring gas wells, H2S leaking machinery, and proven health damaging pollution caused by the oil industry.

Everyone in Canada is happy with oil $$$, but farmenrs here in AB are getting pushed around by the EUB, a puppet oil indusrty organization.

http://www.landadvocate.org/

Land Advocate

I can't believe that some people still think that there's no problem with the ways in which we pollute our environment. To them I suggest trying to breathe through an exhaust pipe.

How many H2s courses have you taken. The fact is there has been nothing really proven as to the health effects of H2s. True, laboratory tests have been done on H2s but not in conditions one would find outside the laboratory. H2s is a very interesting gas. More deadly than cyanide gas. Yet it can be worked in in amounts of ten parts per million for up to eight hours with no known health effects. At 200 to 500 ppm it can cause death within hours. At 700 to 1000 ppm death can be immediate. The body has H2s in it all the time. In fact everything has H2s in to some degree. A persons close can retain enough H2s to knock one down or even a mud puddle. A sour gas well is a natural gas well only laiden H2s. The H2s is removed and you are left with natural gas. Making ridiculous statements about the energy industry that drives our economy and gives us our standard of living, is something best left to the crackpot crowd.

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There is a real problem with global warming, and maybe it won't destroy the planet in my lifetime.... but how about our kids and grand-kids ??? Everyone should have to tow the line...

Funny how an big NDPer like air (or however you spell it) is concerned about his kids and grand-kids.

And thinks everyone should tow the line....except when it comes to our national debt.

Who's gonna tow the line down the road for the debt?

So just keep up the spending Air, Canada's $500 billion debt will belong to your kids and your grand-kids.

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I can't believe that some people still think that there's no problem with the ways in which we pollute our environment. To them I suggest trying to breathe through an exhaust pipe.

Someone help me out here...I never took any logic courses, but is this the infamous "straw man" that everyone seems to talk about on here?

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There is a real problem with global warming, and maybe it won't destroy the planet in my lifetime.... but how about our kids and grand-kids ??? Everyone should have to tow the line...

Funny how an big NDPer like air (or however you spell it) is concerned about his kids and grand-kids.

And thinks everyone should tow the line....except when it comes to our national debt.

Who's gonna tow the line down the road for the debt?

So just keep up the spending Air, Canada's $500 billion debt will belong to your kids and your grand-kids.

What's funnier is his parents had to listen to the same stuff 30-35 years ago about him. The planet hasn't even come close to being destroyed yet. Silly alarmists.

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  • 2 weeks later...
There is a real problem with global warming, and maybe it won't destroy the planet in my lifetime.... but how about our kids and grand-kids ??? Everyone should have to tow the line...

Funny how an big NDPer like air (or however you spell it) is concerned about his kids and grand-kids.

And thinks everyone should tow the line....except when it comes to our national debt.

Who's gonna tow the line down the road for the debt?

So just keep up the spending Air, Canada's $500 billion debt will belong to your kids and your grand-kids.

If you're looking to learn how to spell, just look at the name printed on the top of the post, and type it in the same way....

I do think everyone should tow the line as far as pollution, global warming, etc.. What it wrong with trying not to poison the planet....

As far as our national debt goes, I'm all for dealing with that as we can. We've been running huge federal surpluses for the past few years. Why, then is our government giving more back to corp. Canada in further tax breaks when our tax rates (the corporate ones anyways) are lower than the US counterparts.... The government should put these surpluses back into the programs they plundered to come up with the surplus, and some of it to the national debt.... Why would you suggest that I wouldn't support debt repayment....

It would appear that you're using the "Straw Man" arguments that Cybercoma wanted to know about... Making up some story (which is not in the main line of argument) to try to ridicule your opponent about to discredit your opponent's position in the main argument.....

PS. Cybercoma: You didn't need to tell us you didn't know much about logical argument... we've read your posts....

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  • 5 months later...
I can't believe that some people still think that there's no problem with the ways in which we pollute our environment. To them I suggest trying to breathe through an exhaust pipe.

Someone help me out here...I never took any logic courses, but is this the infamous "straw man" that everyone seems to talk about on here?

I hope you're not suggesting that I'm a 'straw man'. I'm interested in productive discussions about issues.

Coming up to and during the 2006 election I was very active in some political forums learning what the online community thought about various subjects. I have stated my POV on many subjects, and argued well with a number of forum members here and at other forums. I hope to continue to participate here without being called names.

If anything, I defend attacks from straw men and some people become upset that I call them on their weak arguments.

Cameron Wigmore

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I hope you're not suggesting that I'm a 'straw man'. I'm interested in productive discussions about issues.

Coming up to and during the 2006 election I was very active in some political forums learning what the online community thought about various subjects. I have stated my POV on many subjects, and argued well with a number of forum members here and at other forums. I hope to continue to participate here without being called names.

If anything, I defend attacks from straw men and some people become upset that I call them on their weak arguments.

Cameron Wigmore

Sucking on an exhaust pipe will kill you quickly. Getting outside for some fresh air won't. People were crying about pollution 35 years ago and how the destruction of the planet was imminent. Remember the doomsayers and what their imaginiations told them the year 2000 would look like? We should all be wearing respirators by now. It's not as much of a problem as a very small number of people are making it out to be.

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The Kyoto Accord does more damage to factories in Ontario than it does to Alberta. The ones who are fighting it are from Ontario. I have seen 2 large Oil Company CEO's say it was a good idea. Those being Encana Corp & Husky Energy.

I never saw the CEO from Alcan agreeing with it!!!

The problem with the Kyoto is, it is a futile effort to reduce emission, leaving the richer companies a way out of actually reducing, by ponying up the doe!

Alberta, has more than complied in many ways and flaring is a minor dent in what toxic emissions actually do. If you look at Epcor's coal project, it would surprise you how they have cut emissions.

The reason to be against Kyoto is it's huge shortcomings in reduction of emissions. An effective plan for reduction is needed, not ratifying a bad one to begin with!!

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I read that the credits program was based on a similar program used to reduce coal (?) emissions in Pennsylvania. They effectively created a market for trading emissions, with the overall emissions being slowly reduced.

It sounds like an innovative approach to me. Governments aren't going to shut down factories, so this seems like a good way to nudge them in the right direction.

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CBC story on how US has reduced emmisions more than Canada.

"...Canada lags behind the United States when it comes to clamping down on air pollution, says an environmental watchdog.

Pollution Watch says the United States reduced air pollution emissions by 45 per cent between 1995 and 2003, while Canada reduced air pollution emissions by 1.8 per cent over the same period...."

Another CBC story on businesses calling for action to reduce emmissions.

"...In a letter to the Prime Minister, the heads of Alcan, Bombardier, Shell Canada, Falconbridge, Home Depot Canada and Desjardins Group, among others, said Canada needs a 50-year strategy to deal with the fallout from climate change..."

Kyoto is a good start; it's a good way to nudge businesses in the right direction. I'm not saying it's all we should do. We need to do more.

Cameron

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Kyoto is a big waste of our time and money. We've spent loads of tax dollars on it, yet our emissions are worse.

It's failed, too bad so sad. Wish people had listened when the Conservatives were calling for a made-in-Canada solution instead of a ridiculous treaty that the biggest polluters aren't even signatories to.

Treaties don't make changes, actions make changes. Let's do something real.

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Kyoto is a big waste of our time and money. We've spent loads of tax dollars on it, yet our emissions are worse.

It's failed, too bad so sad. Wish people had listened when the Conservatives were calling for a made-in-Canada solution instead of a ridiculous treaty that the biggest polluters aren't even signatories to.

Treaties don't make changes, actions make changes. Let's do something real.

Kyoto is only a big waste of our time and money only if you do not value the quality of the air we breathe. It is one part of a strategy to reduce emissions that is by no means the be all and end all of answers, but will help us to become a cleaner country.

Our emissions are worse because businesses have not been held accountable (yet) for their emissions. With the new Conservative gov't, I'd like to see them being held accountable. After all, wasn't this part of their platform? Accountability? Maybe it doesn't apply to businesses that pollute, since their environmental platform is so awful. Just thought I'd point this out since you've brought up this political party. Incidentally the Cons have cancelled the One-Ton-Challenge. A strange way to show their concern for the environment.

Actions do make changes. We can all take part in showing our gov't that we want big polluters to be taxed for their emmissions instead of the average person having their income taxed to provide subsidies to big polluting businesses. We want them to be forced to reduce their emmissions. Period.

Kyoto is a start that we desperately need to make, in light of the fact that we are having a negative impact on our environment that's quite significant.

Cameron

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