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Do you support Western Oil & Gas?

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3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Economic nationalism is just dumb.  Particularly in the case of Canada the Company Town.

Why would I support any oil and gas companies on the basis of what country they are extracting from, in a global market?

The only reason to invest in an oil company right now would be the dividend, but the highest are BP and Royal Dutch Shell, doesn't matter where they drill though.

What do these rube Canadians even think they get out of the deal, by this "support" to "Western Oil & Gas" ?

Economic nationalism is a scam.

Economic nationalism delenda est. If companies extracting Western Oil & Gas were worth supporting, it would have nothing to do with what country they are located in.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Economic nationalism delenda est. If companies extracting Western Oil & Gas were worth supporting, it would have nothing to do with what country they are located in.

You have to decide which companies are worth supporting based on your view of those companies and whether or not you want to buy their shares.

What is this "Support for Western Oil & Gas" ?  

What does that even mean ?   Support what exactly ?  Support it how, exactly ?

Western Oil & Gas wants what from me, a hug ?  A Pep talk ?  What ?

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You have to decide which companies are worth supporting based on your view of those companies and whether or not you want to buy their shares.

What is this "Support for Western Oil & Gas" ?  

What does that even mean ?   Support what exactly ?  Support it how, exactly ?

Western Oil & Gas wants what from me, a hug ?  A Pep talk ?  What ?

If it's the economic nationalists asking for support, then I assume they want Western Oil and Gas protected from foreign competition and/or higher taxes to fund further subsidizing of entrenched interests, if so, f*ck that.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If it's the economic nationalists asking for support, then I assume they want Western Oil and Gas protected from foreign competition and/or higher taxes to fund further subsidizing of entrenched interests, if so, f*ck that.

Well I might buy Western Oil & Gas shares if they get handouts from the government, if the company passes that corporate welfare through to me the shareholder.

But the company doesn't have to be Canadian, whichever one that is offering you the highest dividend to own it, and is increasing dividends as it goes, that's the one to buy.

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3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Well I might buy Western Oil & Gas shares if they get handouts from the government, if the company passes that corporate welfare through to me the shareholder.

But the company doesn't have to be Canadian, whichever one that is offering you the highest dividend to own it, and is increasing dividends as it goes, that's the one to buy.

If the company offering that, happens to be a Western Oil and Gas company, so be it, but the nationalism angle is completely irrelevant, it's all about the dividends, like you say.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If the company offering that, happens to be a Western Oil and Gas company, so be it, but the nationalism angle is completely irrelevant, it's all about the dividends, like you say.

Well I wouldn't support for example Imperial Oil, unless they are paying me big dividends, I see no reason to support a multinational oil company on moral nor ethical grounds.

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I do have a problem with it. We rely on it too much, it makes economic barriers of  car ownership and gas affordability. I believe we need much, much, more transportation and make it the norm over the car. 

This will reduce economic barriers of cost, car collisions, land usage, road maintenance, and improve city design. Car reliance is holding us back as nations that never had to use them rise ahead of us.

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1 hour ago, mikeweer said:

You have a very different perception from most Canadians who see Canada as one of the last refuges of true liberal democracy.  Democracy has been under threat in the US and Europe.  I think it will be alright, but the US has gone backwards for a few years socio-politically.  It’s nativist right populism

The term liberal democracy refers to classical liberalism, doesn't mean what you think it does, clearly.

Canadian democracy is not liberal at all.  Canada is a racist apartheid nanny police state run by Progressives, which is an euphemism for communist.

 

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On 10/22/2019 at 4:05 PM, Dougie93 said:

Canada is a racist apartheid nanny police state run by Progressives, which is an euphemism for communist.

 

I have not heard of Trudeau bringing immigrants from white countries only like Sweden and Norway; something Trump openly declared.  Do not forget that socialist and communist countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Checholslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, DDR did not have homeless people sleeping on the streets freezing and dying in the winter.  They did not have problems with drugs; they did not have problems with guns and mass shootings.   These are all traits of capitalism!  

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9 minutes ago, cougar said:

I have not heard of Trudeau bringing immigrants from white countries only like Sweden and Norway; something Trump openly declared.  Do not forget that socialist and communist countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Checholslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, DDR did not have homeless people sleeping on the streets freezing and dying in the winter.  They did not have problems with drugs; they did not have problems with guns and mass shootings.   These are all traits of capitalism!  

Capitalism, like democracy, is simply the least worst option, I only respect a communist like Slavoj Zizek, that is one who admits the left hasn't thought of a better system yet.

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I don't support any oil and gas.  I support evidence-based policies. The best available evidence says that the oil and gas already in production is enough to screw up my kids' futures.

The cheapest new energy anywhere in the world is from new wind and solar, not from digging sludge out of the ground and burning it. And costs continue to drop. The entire O&G industry is headed into the toilet, stranding trillions of dollars worth of investments; and just about every senior level politician in this country is determined to chain Canada to it.  Raving madness.

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5 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Estimates say the earth only has 50 years worth of oil at our current rate of consumption.  Unless they figure out something with methane hydrate it'll be over then.  

Profitability is about to tip to renewables. The current rate of consumption won't continue.

Sorry western oil and gas, but the tide is turning. 

Everybody hopes that Alberta will diversify, maybe become a leader in renewable energy. 

But the current rate of burning fossil fuels is unsustainable. 

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6 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

Estimates say the earth only has 50 years worth of oil at our current rate of consumption.  Unless they figure out something with methane hydrate it'll be over then.  

Estimates 50 years ago said the same thing. I wouldn't put much stock in those estimates, they fail to account for finding more oil and the ability of technology to access previously inaccessible oil.

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21 minutes ago, jacee said:

Less oil will be burned as fuel efficiency increases, they aren't factoring that in either. The current rate of consumption will not hold and the current reserves are far from all of the oil there is. The death of oil has been greatly exaggerated, it might lose some market share relative to other energy sources, but it's not going away any time soon, it will be a valuable part of the energy mix for the foreseeable future.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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2 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Less oil will be burned as fuel efficiency increases, they aren't factoring that in either. The current rate of consumption will not hold and the current reserves are far from all of the oil there is. The death of oil has been greatly exaggerated, it might lose some market share relative to other energy sources, but it's not going away any time soon, it will be a valuable part of the energy mix for the foreseeable future.

I bet more oil will be burned if our population continues to rise as it is now.  Oil is just the tip of the iceberg.  

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13 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

I bet more oil will be burned if our population continues to rise as it is now.  Oil is just the tip of the iceberg.  

The population isn't rising that much, it is slowing down and will fall not too far into the future.

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6 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Less oil will be burned as fuel efficiency increases, they aren't factoring that in either. The current rate of consumption will not hold and the current reserves are far from all of the oil there is. The death of oil has been greatly exaggerated, it might lose some market share relative to other energy sources, but it's not going away any time soon, it will be a valuable part of the energy mix for the foreseeable future.

The only fact that matters is the profitability of oil. Investors take their money where the earnings are best.

Pension funds are investing to fund retirements by planning 40 years ahead.  

Even with the massive subsidies we still pay to oil companies, renewable energy, without subsidies, is approaching the tipping point where it will be more profitable than fossil fuel energy. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/01/fossil-fuel-subsidy-cash-pay-green-energy-transition

Remove even 30% of the fossil fuel subsidies we pay to oil companies, and it's all over: Renewable energy would more profitable, investors go where the profits are, there's a swift and massive rollout of renewable energy across the country ... and jobs jobs jobs.

Oil profits are fake profits that wouldn't exist without each and  every Canadian paying ~$1,650/year out of our federal income taxes to subsidize the oil industry. 

Not all Albertans are fighting against this reality. Some, including workers and businesses that supply the oil industry, are already actively transitioning to supply the renewable energy industry too.  From my link posted above: 

Bronwen Tucker, an Edmonton-based researcher for the advocacy group Oil Change International said people don’t yet grasp the opportunities that are available.

“We’ve never told another story of what’s possible in Alberta,” said Tucker, “[We’ve] never been allowed to.”

... 

Iron & Earth’s Lliam Hildebrand worked at the Long Lake oilsands project in 2015 when plummeting oil prices caused companies across the industry to fire tens of thousands of people.

“It was terrifying,” he said. He started talking to others about a Plan B. “What we found out was that in a lot of countries renewable energy was actually the fast-growing job provider and that a lot of those jobs were very relevant to our skill set,” he said.

Edited by jacee

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If it's only the subsidies propping up fossil fuels, then get rid of all energy subsidies and on a level playing field the best energy will win. Totally on board with that. 

Yet something tells me you will simply want to double down on green energy subsidies while taking away fossil fuel subsidies, which goes to show you don't believe in green energy as much you claim you do, or it wouldn't need those subsidies to compete with fossil fuels that aren't subsidized. If you have the strength of your convictions, you'll support a level playing field, not a rigged playing field that subsidizes only the types of energy you happen to like.

So which is it jacee? Rigged playing field for green energy, or level playing field that lets the cream of the energy crop rise to the top?

Do you believe what you say, or do you just want to pick different winners and losers with government intervention? If you just want to pick different winners and losers and subvert the free market to do so, that makes you no better than those who approve of fossil fuel subsidies.

Edited by Yzermandius19

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On 10/29/2019 at 11:09 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

If it's only the subsidies propping up fossil fuels, then get rid of all energy subsidies and on a level playing field the best energy will win. Totally on board with that. 

Yet something tells me you will simply want to double down on green energy subsidies while taking away fossil fuel subsidies, which goes to show you don't believe in green energy as much you claim you do, or it wouldn't need those subsidies to compete with fossil fuels that aren't subsidized. If you have the strength of your convictions, you'll support a level playing field, not a rigged playing field that subsidizes only the types of energy you happen to like.

So which is it jacee? Rigged playing field for green energy, or level playing field that lets the cream of the energy crop rise to the top?

Do you believe what you say, or do you just want to pick different winners and losers with government intervention? If you just want to pick different winners and losers and subvert the free market to do so, that makes you no better than those who approve of fossil fuel subsidies.

There are no federal subsidies for renewable energy.

There's $3b a year in oil and gas subsidies, federal + provincial. 

I would agree with 'no subsidies, level playing field', but I know that would be a very swift and drastic hardship for the workers. 

Unsubsidized oil and gas can't compete with renewable energy. 

I suggest you look it up and verify that yourself. 

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4 hours ago, jacee said:

There are no federal subsidies for renewable energy.

There's $3b a year in oil and gas subsidies, federal + provincial. 

I would agree with 'no subsidies, level playing field', but I know that would be a very swift and drastic hardship for the workers. 

Unsubsidized oil and gas can't compete with renewable energy. 

I suggest you look it up and verify that yourself. 

There are federal subsidies in America for both, and renewables come up well short, and that has little to do with with oil and gas getting more subsidies, they are just cheaper and more efficient.

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