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Ewall87

Does Maxime Bernier's PPC stand a chance?

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A chance of what? Of winning the election? No, of course not. Dislike the PPC message? No, I like its clarity, even where I disagree. I like Bernier's clarity on issues he speaks on, from immigration to supply management and interprovincial free trade. I like that he's not afraid to respond to controversial things that have Scheer wringing his hands and hoping no one asks him. Scheer and the Tories speak in vague, soothing generalities while Bernier gives specifics. Bernier is a product of the Tories taking their base for granted and taking on the culture of the progressive elites. 

An example. During the Tory leadership capaign one of the lesser known figures proposed values tests for prospective immigrants. All the other candidates came out strongly against the idea, even though two polls showed 81% of conservative supporters liked the idea. The tory leadership is wildly out of touch with ordinary people. And even when it understand its too nervous of being attacked by the Left and media to stand up for what they believe in.

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FPTP can handle two parties. Beyond that the message from voters becomes chaotic. Bernier should have stayed in the party that brung him and worked for change from within. 

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12 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

FPTP can handle two parties. Beyond that the message from voters becomes chaotic. Bernier should have stayed in the party that brung him and worked for change from within. 

I think it was obvious that the Conservative Party is hostage to a political game which involves ethnic herders and targeted programs aimed at various ethnic groups in order to win votes in various urban ridings. Much like the Liberals. They have no intention of cutting immigration or doing more than tinkering around the edges with it. They had ten years under Harper and they actually increased it. The Tories dismiss their base because hey, they have no one else to vote for anyway, and work to get votes from the centre and centre left. They were never going to change. It didn't even change during Harper's day. I said even then that people should tell me just where the conservative policies are and nobody found any. Likewise Scheer has no conservative policies and offers up nothing but vague and insincere homilies. Just Bernier saying that there could be such a thing as too much diversity set the Tory leadership into hysterical emergency meetings to figure out a way to get rid of him without alienating too many people.

I hope that Bernier's party does stop Scheer from winning. Though I have huge doubts he has a chance even without the PPC. A party that doesn't stand for anything and that has no real policies and a boring, unattractive leader isn't going to unseat a prime minister during good economic times unless people are real tired of him. And after just four years they're not tired enough of Trudeau.

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On 7/25/2019 at 10:03 PM, Ewall87 said:

Maxime Bernier's PPC seems to speak for a lot of the population - but is that enough? Where do you stand - are you afraid of vote splitting, dislike the PPC message or are you a PPC supporter?

Poll: Does Maxime Bernier's PPC stand a chance?

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I liked his position on free trade,  corporate subsidies, and supply-management, but I do question his position on immigration. If his intention is to make it easier for a person to work in Canada visa-free for example while making it more difficult for a person to obtain permanent residency (which thus confers on him access to social services and such), then I'd certainly support him. However, I now get the impression that he's really just anti-immigration.

I also worry about his multicultural policies. I do believe in linguistic deregulation in the government and private sectors for example, and certainly oppose government spending on different ethnic events. However, I'm still very much in favour of a cultural free-market. Maybe I can best describe myself as an interculturalist rather than a multi-culturalist, or a multiculturalist within an interculturalist framework. I get the impression though that he might try to introduce silly laws like a 'Canadian-values test (which anyone could pass just by learning the correct answer) and such.

A few months ago, I was leaning Bernier because of his stance on free trade, supply-management, and corporate welfare. Now his stance on immigration worries me.

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On 7/26/2019 at 12:04 PM, Argus said:

A chance of what? Of winning the election? No, of course not. Dislike the PPC message? No, I like its clarity, even where I disagree. I like Bernier's clarity on issues he speaks on, from immigration to supply management and interprovincial free trade. I like that he's not afraid to respond to controversial things that have Scheer wringing his hands and hoping no one asks him. Scheer and the Tories speak in vague, soothing generalities while Bernier gives specifics. Bernier is a product of the Tories taking their base for granted and taking on the culture of the progressive elites. 

An example. During the Tory leadership capaign one of the lesser known figures proposed values tests for prospective immigrants. All the other candidates came out strongly against the idea, even though two polls showed 81% of conservative supporters liked the idea. The tory leadership is wildly out of touch with ordinary people. And even when it understand its too nervous of being attacked by the Left and media to stand up for what they believe in.

I don't understand a cultural-values test. Firstly, who will define these 'values'? For example, even though I was born in Canada, I'm also pro-life. So, do I meet these cultural values? Besides, all I'd have to do as an immigrant, as long as I'm willing to lie, would be to check the box that says I'm pro-choice. Worse yet, it would probably face a constitutional challenge on the grounds that it violates freedom of belief. The Western tradition (and even the Eastern one for that matter) is based mostly on respect of the law. In other words, the law does not force a person to agree with it, it just forces him to obey it. As soon as it crosses the line into forcing us to agree with it, it starts to head to Orwellian territory. We can certainly impose a knowledge test of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to ensure they know our most fundamental laws, but that would not require them to agree with said law, but ontly agree to oey it. That's not a values test though, but rather a knowledge test. Now I could agree with a test of their knowledge of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms for example, but again, that's not a cultural-values test since it doesn't require agreement with it, but I could support that.

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14 minutes ago, Machjo said:

1. I don't understand a cultural-values test. Firstly, who will define these 'values'? For example, even though I was born in Canada, I'm also pro-life. So, do I meet these cultural values?

2. Besides, all I'd have to do as an immigrant, as long as I'm willing to lie, would be to check the box that says I'm pro-choice.

3. Worse yet, it would probably face a constitutional challenge on the grounds that it violates freedom of belief.

1.  Clearly if you're pro-life, or not willing to march in the Pride parade and trumpet trans rights then the conservatives will brand you not Canadian enough to enter, or stay... :huh:  Yeah, I don't get it either.

2. But every conservative knows that immigrants DON'T  LIE.  Especially to get into Canada.

3. Good conservatives reject the constitution, and any multi-syllabic word that represents process or an impediment to jerking their knees emotionally as often as possible.

 

But you gotta love that clarity ?  Smoothe, clear clarity as far as the eye can see...

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1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Clearly if you're pro-life, or not willing to march in the Pride parade and trumpet trans rights then the conservatives will brand you not Canadian enough to enter, or stay... :huh:  Yeah, I don't get it either.

2. But every conservative knows that immigrants DON'T  LIE.  Especially to get into Canada.

3. Good conservatives reject the constitution, and any multi-syllabic word that represents process or an impediment to jerking their knees emotionally as often as possible.

 

But you gotta love that clarity ?  Smoothe, clear clarity as far as the eye can see...

You’re a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen.  It’s obvious that you’re not interested in any real discussion.

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1 minute ago, Shady said:

You’re a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen.  It’s obvious that you’re not interested in any real discussion.

I indulged you when you wanted to have a supposedly mainstream politician run a campaign saying the UN is a 'joke'.  

The poster's concerns on the cultural values test are certainly real and my support of his/her post is merely hyperbolic humour.  Have a laugh once in awhile, you can get around to shooting that immigrant on your lawn later.... :lol:

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25 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I don't understand a cultural-values test. Firstly, who will define these 'values'? For example, even though I was born in Canada, I'm also pro-life. So, do I meet these cultural values?

Depends. Do you think women who want abortions should be beheaded? Do you think if that baby arose from sex outside wedlock she should be stoned to death?

This idea we can't figure out what culture values are is bullshit. Everyone knows what we don't want, which is religious or cultural barbarians who think that women are mens property, that gays or other immoral types should be killed or imprisoned, and that the moral behaviour of the great bulk of people in this country is so immoral and depraved that they'll send their kids back 'home' for their education rather than have them infested with these sordid western beliefs.

And yes, we can enforce such choices on foreigners who have no right to be here, to interview them as part of the immigration process to determine if they are likely to fit in with Canada's culture and values.

 

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5 minutes ago, Shady said:

You’re a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen.  It’s obvious that you’re not interested in any real discussion.

Let's explore in practical terms how a 'Canadian-values' test would work.

1. Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

Hmmm... what did my teacher teach in class again? Oh yes, pro-choice. I'll still vote pro-life though as soon as I become a citizen.

2. Do you support gay marriage?

Hmmm... What was the answer to that again? Oh yes, I do support gay marriage. I can't wait to vote that law down though.

3. Do you support the Separate Catholic and Protestant denominational-school system?

Wait, what? Doesn't that conflict with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. No I... Oh wait, that's in the Charter. I remember now, yes I do. Can't wait to vote for a party that supports voucher schools though.

4. Do you support compulsory French as a second language in English Canada and English as a second language in French Canada?

Hmmm... Why couldn't a school or student choose a sign language or the local indigenous language instead. Besides, their success rates are dismal anyway. Oh yes, official bilingualism, two founding races and such nonsense. Yes, of course I support it.

Yeah, a values test would work brilliantly methinks.

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1 minute ago, Argus said:

Depends. Do you think women who want abortions should be beheaded? Do you think if that baby arose from sex outside wedlock she should be stoned to death?

This idea we can't figure out what culture values are is bullshit. Everyone knows what we don't want, which is religious or cultural barbarians who think that women are mens property, that gays or other immoral types should be killed or imprisoned, and that the moral behaviour of the great bulk of people in this country is so immoral and depraved that they'll send their kids back 'home' for their education rather than have them infested with these sordid western beliefs.

And yes, we can enforce such choices on foreigners who have no right to be here, to interview them as part of the immigration process to determine if they are likely to fit in with Canada's culture and values.

 

Even in that case, firstly, a person can easily lie on the test (so what's the point of it). Secondly, given that our laws already ban vigilantyism, a simple knowledge test of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms along with a commitment to uphold the laws of the land whatever they may be at any time should suffice. Again, once we foist beliefs onto the population, we start to cross into orwellian territory. I hold beliefs that some would find objectionable. For example, I sincerely support a heavy fine for fornication, with the fine doubling for each repetition of the offence, for a number of reasons. Among them, a deterrence against asault (since fornication is easier to prove) and deterrence against risky behaviour that can contribute to unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STIs. I'm also very favourable to more open borders and free trade. So, should the state ever force me to adopt a specific set of beliefs (such as protectionism, etc.) or only certain laws (e.g. don't try to smuggle something into the country to avoid paying the tariff)? Once you propose that the state force belierfs on me, I worry.

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5 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Even in that case, firstly, a person can easily lie on the test (so what's the point of it).

Screening tests are designed to discern a person's views on issue without direct questions. They would work best on unsophisticated people, esp religious fanatics who could probably not bring themselves to say anything against their religion on paper. Hell, just demand they shake hands with the opposite sex. That's been shown to expose the kinds of values we don't like already.

5 minutes ago, Machjo said:

Again, once we foist beliefs onto the population, we start to cross into orwellian territory.

We're not forcing views on the population, we're weeding out would-be immigrants who possess values inimical to our own and who are less likely to adapt and thrive here.

5 minutes ago, Machjo said:

I hold beliefs that some would find objectionable.

You are presumably a citizen. Your argument is something like "Look, we have lots of pedophiles in Canada. Is it really fair to deny pedophiles the opportunity to immigrate to Canada?"

Well... yes.

Immigrants are such a high percentage of the population now that it makes sense to choose those who are more likely to embrace out secular values  and rights or else they'll eventually decide to vote to change those values to the type they prefer.

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20 hours ago, Machjo said:

Let's explore in practical terms how a 'Canadian-values' test would work.

1. Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

Hmmm... what did my teacher teach in class again? Oh yes, pro-choice. I'll still vote pro-life though as soon as I become a citizen.

2. Do you support gay marriage?

Hmmm... What was the answer to that again? Oh yes, I do support gay marriage. I can't wait to vote that law down though.

3. Do you support the Separate Catholic and Protestant denominational-school system?

Wait, what? Doesn't that conflict with the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. No I... Oh wait, that's in the Charter. I remember now, yes I do. Can't wait to vote for a party that supports voucher schools though.

4. Do you support compulsory French as a second language in English Canada and English as a second language in French Canada?

Hmmm... Why couldn't a school or student choose a sign language or the local indigenous language instead. Besides, their success rates are dismal anyway. Oh yes, official bilingualism, two founding races and such nonsense. Yes, of course I support it.

Yeah, a values test would work brilliantly methinks.

I doubt that that’s what a values test would look like.  It would probably center more on broad concepts of freedom, secularism, and human rights.  I personally don’t care what somebody’s skin colour is, their race, religion, sexual preference, etc of someone that wants to immigrate to Canada.  I just don’t want people, from any place in the world, to bring ideas and policies that are in direct opposition to Canadian values.  Ideas and policies matter more than anything else.  I don’t want terrible ideas that have cause terrible problems in other countries being brought here.  You’d think that would just be common sense.

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On 7/27/2019 at 3:32 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

FPTP can handle two parties. Beyond that the message from voters becomes chaotic. Bernier should have stayed in the party that brung him and worked for change from within. 

You mean the western liberal party...and very little of max's platform is even on Sheers agenda.... 

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On 7/27/2019 at 5:20 PM, Machjo said:

Let's explore in practical terms how a 'Canadian-values' test would work.

Have you honestly never taken a personality test, or a suitability test during a hiring process for a large organization? Those tests look nothing like this. There are no direct questions asked which have obvious answers - unless the obvious answer is a trick. The moment you see one you start thinking "This is a trick question".

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9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

You mean the western liberal party...and very little of max's platform is even on Sheers agenda.... 

Bernier should probably have won that contest. He had solid support within the party. But once you leave the fold not many will follow. 

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Image result for Why Bernier is an idiotimage.jpeg.d846d61739687bf4e2137bfd2f8f9ab9.jpegImage result for Why Bernier is an idiotimage.jpeg.df3ece78e0172917237459363c42ec2e.jpeg

1                                                                          2                                                           3                                                          4

 

Match up the quotes:

Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh 

Deez are real teets

I just farted

Shaving is over-rated.

Ok now can we all agree its not looking good can we  add a 5th candidate:

Image result for is celine dion ill

Prime Minister Celine Dion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rue
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It is over for max.

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On 7/26/2019 at 9:04 AM, Argus said:

A chance of what? Of winning the election? No, of course not. Dislike the PPC message? No, I like its clarity, even where I disagree. I like Bernier's clarity on issues he speaks on, from immigration to supply management and interprovincial free trade. I like that he's not afraid to respond to controversial things that have Scheer wringing his hands and hoping no one asks him. Scheer and the Tories speak in vague, soothing generalities while Bernier gives specifics. Bernier is a product of the Tories taking their base for granted and taking on the culture of the progressive elites. 

An example. During the Tory leadership capaign one of the lesser known figures proposed values tests for prospective immigrants. All the other candidates came out strongly against the idea, even though two polls showed 81% of conservative supporters liked the idea. The tory leadership is wildly out of touch with ordinary people. And even when it understand its too nervous of being attacked by the Left and media to stand up for what they believe in.

I couldn't agree more about Bernier and his policy. Head-to-head I personally prefer him to Scheer from what I've seen, but if you take their respective parties out of the picture, Scheer is still a far better pick to beat Trudeau.

Bernier is easy pickings for that slimy virtue-signaller and his mainstream media, Bernier's not the type to pick up a single centrist voter so he doesn't stand a chance of swinging voters away from Trudeau, and like everyone else has said, he's just going to split the Conservative vote, and there's no margin for error here. Trudeau has to lose, bigtime, or this country is royally screwed.

It would take a lot, like more than just one extreme thing would have to happen, in order for me to switch to PPC. And I'm afraid what I might find if I look too closely. He is pretty far to the right. 

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:43 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Bernier should probably have won that contest. He had solid support within the party. But once you leave the fold not many will follow. 

It would be really bad for the Conservatives if Max had won. He's walking too fine of a line. He could never win middle voters away from Trudeau.

For example, I agreed with his infamous tweets on Trudeau's "diversity is our strength" idiocy, especially 

Quote

4/ Having people live among us who reject basic Western values such as freedom, equality, tolerance and openness doesn’t make us strong. People who refuse to integrate into our society and want to live apart in their ghetto don’t make our society strong.

While that is 100% correct and in line with what it should take to become Canadian, that position is untenable in the current political climate. It's too easy to turn that statement into a virtue-signalling debate.

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On 7/28/2019 at 6:49 PM, Argus said:

Have you honestly never taken a personality test, or a suitability test during a hiring process for a large organization? Those tests look nothing like this. There are no direct questions asked which have obvious answers - unless the obvious answer is a trick. The moment you see one you start thinking "This is a trick question".

And you expect all CBSA interviewers to possess the intellectual acumen to concuct such a nuanced test in a competent manner? I have no doubt that some CBSA officers are highly competent; but from my experiences at airports, I can say that the CBSA struggles to attract enough sufficiently competent officers just to conduct standard airport security; so how are they going to now find enough competent officers for more complex staff.

Additionally, how do you protect against the biases of the CBSA officer himself? What if he's a religiious fanatic interviewing another religious fanatic or an atheist libertine? Of course he could try to put his biases aside; but for a task that sensitive that it touches on a person's belief system, even subconscious biases are bound to come through. How do you prevent against that? Will we screen the CBSA interviewers for 'Canadian values' too? And what about person hiring the interviewers?

To test a person's knowledge of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and his beliefs concerning respect for the laws of the state are one thing, since they involve objective and verifiable knowledge. To beat around the bush to try to figure out a person's core beliefs about things requires a subtlely that the vast majority of CBSA officers would simply not qualify for, and this when the CBSA is already struggling to find sufficiently competent staff for the tasks that are already being asked of them.

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6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I couldn't agree more about Bernier and his policy. Head-to-head I personally prefer him to Scheer from what I've seen, but if you take their respective parties out of the picture, Scheer is still a far better pick to beat Trudeau.

Bernier is easy pickings for that slimy virtue-signaller and his mainstream media, Bernier's not the type to pick up a single centrist voter so he doesn't stand a chance of swinging voters away from Trudeau, and like everyone else has said, he's just going to split the Conservative vote, and there's no margin for error here. Trudeau has to lose, bigtime, or this country is royally screwed.

It would take a lot, like more than just one extreme thing would have to happen, in order for me to switch to PPC. And I'm afraid what I might find if I look too closely. He is pretty far to the right. 

Don't underestimate Bernier. Though I favour much more open borders, Bernier's stances on free trade, corporate subsidies, and supply management impressed me.

Given how many Canadian favour more open immigration but also favour protectionism, corporate subsidies, and supply management, I figure a vote for Bernier could help support for freer trade to catch up to immigration policy. Also, once trade deals are signed, it's harder to change them later so Bernier could impose freer trade on the next PM even if he ended up being a one-term PM, yet little could stop the next PM from then undoing Bernier's immigration policies.

 

So even an advocate for more open borders who'swho'd looking at the long game could put his beliefs about immigration aside for one election so as to concentrate on free trade.

Many factors could influence whom a voter elects. In my case, the vast of local candidates in my riding will play the biggest role. We'll see.

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On 7/28/2019 at 3:49 PM, Argus said:

Have you honestly never taken a personality test, or a suitability test during a hiring process for a large organization? Those tests look nothing like this. There are no direct questions asked which have obvious answers - unless the obvious answer is a trick. The moment you see one you start thinking "This is a trick question".

What you want are those fun personality quizzes, popular on Facebook.  Cambridge Analytica used them to determine the values of Americans, selected those who were most susceptible to advertising, then used anti-immigrant, anti-Islam and anti-Democrat ads to target them and get Trump elected.  They practiced their technique in countries like Ghana and Nigeria, and in one case demonstrably changed the voting habits of 6% of the voters, just enough to get their candidate elected. 

Cambridge Analytica is now defunct, but the science, research and proof of effectiveness is out there.  We could wholesale profile Canadians and prospective immigrants of all stripes, and then target them with ads all about progressive values.  It's pretty effective since nobody ever thinks they're susceptible, even as they repost some fake news high on their outrage scale.

Edited by dialamah

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11 hours ago, Machjo said:

Don't underestimate Bernier. Though I favour much more open borders, Bernier's stances on free trade, corporate subsidies, and supply management impressed me.

Given how many Canadian favour more open immigration but also favour protectionism, corporate subsidies, and supply management, I figure a vote for Bernier could help support for freer trade to catch up to immigration policy. Also, once trade deals are signed, it's harder to change them later so Bernier could impose freer trade on the next PM even if he ended up being a one-term PM, yet little could stop the next PM from then undoing Bernier's immigration policies.

 

So even an advocate for more open borders who'swho'd looking at the long game could put his beliefs about immigration aside for one election so as to concentrate on free trade.

Many factors could influence whom a voter elects. In my case, the vast of local candidates in my riding will play the biggest role. We'll see.

If his divorce from the Conservatives didn't come at a time where it was so important to defeat the sitting Prime Minister then Bernier would have a realistic shot. Just like Jack Layton was driving the NDP to respectability a couple of elections ago.

I just don't believe that in this crucial of an election there will be a lot of staunch Conservatives who are willing to risk another Trudeau government. Bernier is further to the right of Scheer, but the further right you are the more you can appreciate how important it is to get rid of Trudeau.

It's like a drowning man in the ocean who has a chance to grab the life jacket that he can get to for sure or he can try to swim to the rescue boat which is drifting away and almost certainly out of reach. Yeah you like Bernier more, but it's a longshot and if you take that shot and miss your ass is grass.

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