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Immigrants cost Canada $30 billion per year

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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not a colour or ethnicity thing, maybe for some.  It’s a question of how well immigrants mesh culturally/ideologically with mainstream Canada and weather the economic impacts are more positive or negative. 

Market forces are unstoppable, the immigrants have massively altered Canadian culture in my lifetime.

Negative or positive impacts are not really under the control of government, government does not lead,  it follows.

Canada is exponentially more Asian in culture than when I was a boy and it will become more so as it goes.

The Canadian constitution is weak, the government can make shit up as it goes

The immigrants are taking control of that and they will continue to, until they rule as we Britons once did.

This is Darwinian, the Asians are displacing us as we displaced the Indians, and nothing will stop it.

There are billions of them, there are more people in a couple of their cities than there are in all of Canada.

Edited by Dougie93
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5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not a colour or ethnicity thing, maybe for some.  It’s a question of how well immigrants mesh culturally/ideologically with mainstream Canada and weather the economic impacts are more positive or negative.  

Yes, but we don't study that, nor even take it into consideration.

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There is no such thing as Canadian Identity.  Canadian identity was British. 

When I was growing up, practically every third person you met was a British Expat.

All those people died and their children did not adopt their British identity.

Canadians are now de facto Americans.  

America is a melting pot.  Canada is not. 

So there is no Canadian identity at all anymore.

Information Age Revolution.  

Canadian identity has been drawn into the American Melting Pot.

Canadians spend more time obsessing about America than anything else.

All of Canada's politics are imported from America, most Canadians are simply Democrat Party Progressives.

Canadians stare into the republic and they can't look away and it draws them in inexorably, until there is nothing left but America.

Manifest Destiny.

Edited by Dougie93

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On 9/10/2019 at 4:49 PM, Zeitgeist said:

It just means you and your millennial friends will have to rent rather than buy...

Millennial 

Lol

Thanks but ... I bought decades ago. 

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53 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

There is no such thing as Canadian Identity.  Canadian identity was British. 

When I was growing up, practically every third person you met was a British Expat.

All those people died and their children did not adopt their British identity.

Canadians are now de facto Americans.  

America is a melting pot.  Canada is not. 

So there is no Canadian identity at all anymore.

Information Age Revolution.  

Canadian identity has been drawn into the American Melting Pot.

Canadians spend more time obsessing about America than anything else.

All of Canada's politics are imported from America, most Canadians are simply Democrat Party Progressives.

Canadians stare into the republic and they can't look away and it draws them in inexorably, until there is nothing left but America.

Manifest Destiny.

I hear you obsessing about the US.  Canadians are quite aware of the differences between Canada and the US, even if many Americans are not. I think it’s mistaken to think Canadians have some big beef with Americans.  We don’t.  It’s certain US government policies.  Many Americans have the same concerns.  We have issues with our own Canadian policies too.  In some ways it’s easier to manage Canadian society because of its smaller size, yet the cultural differences inside Canada have more force and power in our smaller society than they would in Melting Pot America.  We can’t simply ignore Quebec, for example.  

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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I hear you obsessing about the US.

I'm American.  I care about America.  I love America.  America is my thing. 

Canada is your thing, why do you obsess about America?

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You said it yourself, I'm a carpetbagger,

The only reason I live here is because I'm married to a Canadian girl and she wants to live close to her family, which I don't mind, I love her family.

But I don't care about Canada, I have contempt for Canada

For the same reason all American conservatives do; buncha speech banning, gun grabbing, freedom hating commies.

Once I cared about Canada, but that was the very British that I grew up in, that Canada is gone now

The Liberals erased it, I don't feel any affinity for what Canada has become.

This Canadian People's Republic I don't need, I have a republic already if the British Crown is irrelevant in Canada.

Of course I obsess about America, it's not just the greatest country in the world, it's the greatest country in the history of the world.

How can I even relate to a Canada which fears and loathes it? 

I'm British and American, the two things Canadians dislike the most.

I'm the enemy in Canada now, decorated Canadian veteran;  no matter, you still call me a traitor.

Fine, fine, whatever, America was born of treason, I wear your treason barb as a badge of honor.

I'm basically like the immigrants, stranger in this land, I guess that's why I feel more affinity for them than I do for Canadians

I enjoy hanging out with immigrants and talking about what a buncha weirdos Canadians are. lol.

Are my Russian neighbors a drain on Canada?  I don't think so, great people, my people.

Freedom lovers, they lived under Communism, they have just as much contempt for Canadian commies as I do.

Edited by Dougie93

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 5:42 PM, Argus said:

And yet your entire time here has been one long whine about how the statistics about immigration are 'smearing' all immigrants and that using them is 'name calling'. 

Bullshit. You've made it very clear that you are angered when anyone uses statistics, even those from the government, about immigration, because somehow you think this 'smears all immigrants'. This is a ludicrous view, but it seems to have angered you nonetheless.

Bullshit. I told you last time to list exactly who I am name-calling and how I am smearing anyone and you have refused. This demonstrates that you are not interested in an honest and factual discussion but merely in insulting me with your continuing bluster of inane accusations.

Well, for one thing, they do not have a monetary incentive to lie, like the corporate lobby group does.

I'm tired of your continuing accusations. I've asked you several times to explain exactly how I have smeared immigrants or insulted them and all I get is more bluster and indignant accusations. I'm done with you. Go and whine at someone else. You contribute nothing to this discussion.

 

I have not wined. That is your personal remark again. I debate. Whether the statistics smeer all immigrants I leave to others to decide. I  believe your words to date make clear in the context you continue to use them you  define ALL immigrants as a drain.  Certainly that is what the exercise you keep reporting did.

Your calling the group that claims we need more immigrants to build the country's economy bias, etc., illustrates your name calling. There is nothing bullshit about that, its there for anyone to read. You didn't debate the content of what they said you simply called them bias and other names. You didn't use any statistics to counter what they said. The report you keep quoting did not address what they said. Accusing them of being liars because they are paid to lie speaks for itself. Its name calling, You don't debate what they said you name call them and  smeer their motives. The fact they support economic growth in this country does not make them liars any more then it makes anyone a liar for being a lobbyist. 

I only play back your words. If you don't want to take responsibility for them, don't. Calling a lobbying group liars  to avoid debating the content of what they said is your tactic and everyone can read it back. 

My one point to you from the get go is that the exercise of  using  a limited time span to label all immigrants a drain on the economy of Canada is inherently distorted and therefore inaccurate.  I have not wined. I have called out the process of extrapolation the Fraser report used as flawed. That is called debating, In fact your last response calling my debate "wining" if anything is wining. Argus move on. You started a thread  and then used the Fraser Report to argue that ALL immigrants are a drain.

Some of us disagree with that approach and have stated why. Stop making it personal. Focus on the issues you claim to support and how you claim to support them. Get back to me when you can explain how an extrapolation of  data from  a limited time period is accurate. The negative generalization you make is being challenged  and calling me out for not being an economist or calling me a winer or a business lobby group liars is not debate.

I will again try explain why I believe there is an extrapolation bias that  distorts the Fraser report's conclusion-which you have NOT addressed.  As well I challenge  other inherent fallacies in the report based on views that are similar to  Patti Tamara Lenard,  Assistant Professor at the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa:

1-the report based its conclusions on a study of recent immigrants to Canada between 1986-2004, whose average incomes and thus contributions to the Canadian tax base were alleged to be lower than non-immigrant Canadians; ( I argued this time limitation being used to then extrapolate is to limited and therefore creates a distorted bias from the generalizations pulled from it-you have yet to address that);

2- the report claimed that each immigrant presents an average net drain of $6329 per year,  then multiplied this number by the 4.2 million immigrants in the country who arrived between 1987 and 2010,  to come up with the annual "cost" to Canadians  it claims all immigrants cost, 26 billion (that extrapolation and assumption it could be applied to ALL immigrants is necessarily bias, it was assumed with no objective measurement it could be arbitrarily applied to all immigrants in the other time period rather than actually looking at the actual numbers);

3-Prof. Tamara contended the numbers were exaggerated, I  also argue they were arbitrarily assumed and imposed to create a number without actually looking at the true numbers for the time period;

4- the estimated cost of immigrants to Canada are on average younger at admission than average Canadians, so necessarily  any analysis of the taxes immigrants contribute must control for age and  that knowing only that the average age of incomers is lower than the average age of Canadian workers,  of course because of that reality,  immigrants would  make less money and therefore to contribute less to the shared tax base  no different than a 25 year-old born in Canada would also make less, andcontribute less in tax dollars, than does the average 50 year-old- so  if Argus wants to say immigrants are a drain then using his logic, our 25 year-old-Canadians are also a drain-should we deport them as well or do we wait for them and immigrants to grow and over a longer period of time, have a chance to contribute and grow in what they can contribute as we do our own citizens;

5-next, we  both argue,  if using the Fraser Report and Argus's assumptions that  immigrants pay less in taxes than average Canadians (because their incomes are lower),  how does that necessarily mean immigrants are drains on the public system? Argus and the report simply assume this...from the distorted sample they took, but I argue and so does this Professor and may others that to actually accurately know if immigrants are a drain we would need to go further and investigate whether immigrants in fact  withdraw in excess of what they contribute from the public services to which they are entitled-that was never done;

6-the  Fraser Report claimed that admitted dependents were predominantly  parents and grandparents, ( and so had limited working years and large medical costs ahead of them)...it also claimed  that in the year 2011 more than 50,000  parent and grandparent dependents entered Canada when the actual number was 14,000  an erroneous number it then used to extrapolate a drain based on the burden imposed by supposedly 50,000 parents and grandparents;

7-the Report assumed the average age of parent and grandparent entrants was 65 and therefore their health care costs would be the same as Canadian citizens aged over 65- this is NOT accurate because it did not properly account for the fact that under our current system the health care costs of parents and grandparent entrants are borne by the sponsor, not the tax payer, for 10 years after arrival and so to accurately find out just how much of a "burden" they would really be the Fraser Report would have had to find out how many sponsors were failing to pay the medical bills, something they did NOT do-they just assumed no sponsor paid the bills;

8-the Fraser report does not analyze or consider the spin off effect to the economy from the purchase immigrants generate,  it also did  not consider any non-monetary, contributions made by Canadian immigrants that could in turn help the economy .

9-initially the report did not consider the billions of dollars immigrants are paying to attend Canadian schools as international students or the rent they pay to people who rent them rooms or give them homestays.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rue

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42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 It’s certain US government policies.  Many Americans have the same concerns. 

Because you are Democrats, and like them, you hate America for what it is and wish it was something else.

Your concerns are American concerns, you don't have any Canadian concerns, because like the Democrats, you pretend Canada is something that it is not.

We are not going to let the Democrats change America into something else

So might as well get back to worrying about Quebec, because you can't change America anymore than the Democrat traitors to the republic can.

Edited by Dougie93

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30 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

You said it yourself, I'm a carpetbagger,

The only reason I live here is because I'm married to a Canadian girl and she wants to live close to her family, which I don't mind, I love her family.

But I don't care about Canada, I have contempt for Canada

For the same reason all American conservatives do; buncha speech banning, gun grabbing, freedom hating commies.

Once I cared about Canada, but that was the very British that I grew up in, that Canada is gone now

The Liberals erased it, I don't feel any affinity for what Canada has become.

This Canadian People's Republic I don't need, I have a republic already if the British Crown is irrelevant in Canada.

Of course I obsess about America, it's not just the greatest country in the world, it's the greatest country in the history of the world.

How can I even relate to a Canada which fears and loathes it? 

I'm British and American, the two things Canadians dislike the most.

I'm the enemy in Canada now, decorated Canadian veteran;  no matter, you still call me a traitor.

Fine, fine, whatever, America was born of treason, I wear your treason barb as a badge of honor.

I'm basically like the immigrants, stranger in this land, I guess that's why I feel more affinity for them than I do for Canadians

I enjoy hanging out with immigrants and talking about what a buncha weirdos Canadians are. lol.

Are my Russian neighbors a drain on Canada?  I don't think so, great people, my people.

Freedom lovers, they lived under Communism, they have just as much contempt for Canadian commies as I do.

Canada is more like Britain than the US is.  Go to just about any Ontario town and you’ll find lawn bowling, tea rooms, King and Queen Streets, a British store, and Victorian or Georgian architecture.  The US and Canada are very close in different ways, especially economically.  That’s a change from even 30 years ago.  With the US we’re always trying to filter the cultural bombardment to make space for Canadian culture, which is similar but not the same.  There are great things about all three countries, yet even as a dual Brit-Canadian, my first loyalty is to Canada where I was born.  Nothing wrong with that.  Liking one country more than the others doesn’t have to mean you dislike the other countries.  In the right places with the right people, happiness can be found in all those countries and many others.  That’s why nationalism is a bit ridiculous.  It’s fine to feel an affinity with cultural and national roots, but I’m suspicious of anyone who parades around with flags and identifies him or herself with a country.  It’s a cop out.  Winners and losers exist in all countries.  

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2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is more like Britain than the US is.  Go to just about any Ontario town and you’ll find lawn bowling, tea rooms, King and Queen Streets, a British store, and Victorian or Georgian architecture.  The US and Canada are very close in different ways, especially economically.  That’s a change from even 30 years ago.  With the US we’re always trying to filter the cultural bombardment to make space for Canadian culture, which is similar but not the same.  There are great things about all three countries, yet even as a dual Brit-Canadian, my first loyalty is to Canada where I was born.  Nothing wrong with that.  Liking one country more than the others doesn’t have to mean you dislike the other countries.  In the right places with the right people, happiness can be found in all those countries and many others.  That’s why nationalism is a bit ridiculous.  It’s fine to feel an affinity with cultural and national roots, but I’m suspicious of anyone who parades around with flags and identifies him or herself with a country.  It’s a cop out.  Winners and losers exist in all countries.  

Canada is America.  America has all those things and so much more.  You can find more British places in New England than there are in Canada.

You can't stop the bombardment, the Information Age Revolution is America, America is taking over the world, not by force of arms, by Information war.

I don't have to have first loyalty to Canada, Canada does not demand that of me anymore than it does the immigrants,

Can't have it both ways, multiculturalism for brown people but not white people?  Nuh-uh.

I can keep my American culture in Canada just as much as the Hindu who runs the local convenience store.

If you think nationalism is ridiculous, you are in the tiny minority, only Canada is the Post National State, which is why the rest of the world is gonna beat up on you.

You should be suspicious of me, I'm those dark forces of American freedom come to bring your Confederation down.  Vive le Quebec libre

I'll be parading around with Old Glory, right here in your kitchen.  Semper Fedelis.

 

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Like, as much as Argus is a whiner, he's still right about immigration in Canada.

The only thing that distinguishes Canadians from Americans is that Canadians are meek and obsequious in the face of foreigners.

The immigrants are going to keep flowing into Canada, and Canada doesn't have culture for them to adopt, and even if it did, it wouldn't impose it on them.

Because of Canadians like Zeitgeist who are running the country, who do not beleive in nationalism.

So the immigrants are going to take over and impose their culture on Canada, already in progress, only going to accelerate and expand.

The immigrants will even turn on the Progressives who were so eager to invite them in, that's going to be the most amusing part.

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9 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Honor your Queen, she is who I serve, she is who I did it for, I didn't do it for you, she recruited me to fight for you.

Why are you so loyal to the Queen? 

Also, not sure how you can be a proud American and a loyal royalist at the same time.  You invoke the Declaration of Independence yet spit on it at the same time.  This is why dual citizenship should be not allowed, it is full of contradictions.  Choose your loyalty, and choose wisely.

The Queen serves me now.  She's my bitch.  I am loyal to her only because she's my bitch.  The Crown is mine and ours, Crown land is our land. She recruited you to fight for me only because I told her to.  Technically my MP told her too, but he's my bitch to.  I'm going to vote out my MP in a month, because he's a POS. :lol:

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

Why are you so loyal to the Queen? 

Also, not sure how you can be a proud American and a loyal royalist at the same time.  You invoke the Declaration of Independence yet spit on it at the same time.  This is why dual citizenship should be not allowed, it is full of contradictions.  Choose your loyalty, and choose wisely.

I am loyal to my oath.  The Queen kept up Her end of the bargain, I have no reason to forsake her, and honor demands that I do not.

There is no conflict with America, America and the British Crown are the closest allies on earth, to include even at the highest levels where Canada is not allowed to be.

 The Declaration of Independence ceased to be against the British Crown, when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown.

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11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I am loyal to my oath.  The Queen kept up Her end of the bargain, I have no reason to forsake her, and honor demands that I do not.

There is no conflict with America, America and the British Crown are the closest allies on earth, to include even at the highest levels where Canada is not allowed to be.

 The Declaration of Independence ceased to be against the British Crown, when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown.

The Queen is the physical embodiment of the state.  I'm glad you're loyal to Canada.  The Queen orders you to be.

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38 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Queen is the physical embodiment of the state.  I'm glad you're loyal to Canada.  The Queen orders you to be.

She doesn't order me to be loyal to Canadian Confederation per se, she still extends me the right to advocate for secession from it.

But only by peaceful democratic self determination under the Clarity Act, I have no right to insurrection.

I don't have to be loyal to the Government of Canada, they are loyal to the Queen, I am loyal to the Queen, but I don't have to be loyal any particular government in office.

Edited by Dougie93

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The most stringent restriction HM places on me is, again, the Queen's Peace. 

Or by the RCMP mandate Peace & Order.

That is where I am restricted for example in rabble rousing against immigrants.

Or what kind of gun I can possess and how I may use it.

Anything which disrupts Peace & Order, that is where the bright line between Canada and America is.

This is where Canadian law can get quite draconian, because it's a catch all, and the definition is very broad and arbitrary.

This is where you get your speech banning laws which are unconstitutional in and repugnant to America

And this is where if you speak out against immigration, the government is going to be able to silence you.

The immigrants enjoy the protection of the Crown, those who whip up anti-immigrant sentiment are in contravention of Peace & Order

It works like; the Nazi Swastika itself is not banned, but if you walk up and down the street waving it to disturb people, that is the part that is banned.

What Americans know however, is that there is no end to it, someone is always offended, disturbed, upset, and then the speech banning gets out of control.

This is where Canada is arriving now, at the threshold of thought crime, which is of course totalitarianism.

Don't say America didn't warn you, Canada, this is why we have a first amendment.

Edited by Dougie93

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6 hours ago, Argus said:

What is the optimal immigration policy?

The optimal is NO IMMIGRATION.  This is how Canada can eventually become a nation  (after another 300 years , if it survives that long)

Optimal, in a case of economic decline is when you send people back.

Optimal for me is, when we bring in only pretty young women and all of them from Russia, Czechoslovakia, Romania and the neighborhood.:P

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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

This is where Canada is arriving now, at the threshold of thought crime, which is of course totalitarianism.

Don't say America didn't warn you, Canada, this is why we have a first amendment.

I don't disagree.  US free speech laws are superior.  But the 2nd amendment is a disaster.  I'd be tempted to move to the US if it weren't so violent and healthcare weren't so messed up and low income black people festering in urban ghettos of crime shooting everyone while white terrorists kill your students.  Pros and cons of each system and country.

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Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't disagree.  US free speech laws are superior.  But the 2nd amendment is a disaster.  I'd be tempted to move to the US if it weren't so violent and healthcare weren't so messed up and low income black people festering in urban ghettos of crime shooting everyone while white terrorists kill your students.  Pros and cons of each system and country.

The shootings are not related to the guns, it's easy enough to get guns in Canada, I'm well armed myself, better armed than the average American.

The shootings are related to culture and mass media. 

Black people fester in urban ghettos because they cling to the Democrat Plantation Aristocracy which was who enslaved them in the first place.

Canada's healthcare system sucks, if you want good healthcare move to Switzerland.

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4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The only thing that distinguishes Canadians from Americans is that Canadians are meek and obsequious in the face of foreigners.

The immigrants are going to keep flowing into Canada, and Canada doesn't have culture for them to adopt, and even if it did, it wouldn't impose it on them.

Because of Canadians like Zeitgeist who are running the country, who do not beleive in nationalism.

So the immigrants are going to take over and impose their culture on Canada, already in progress, only going to accelerate and expand.

The immigrants will even turn on the Progressives who were so eager to invite them in, that's going to be the most amusing part.

You're completely right, 100%.  This is the crux of the matter.

We live in an international system of nation-states.  If you don't have nationalism, you don;t have a nation, but you still may have a state.  You have nothing to bind the country together as a unified unit, to all go forward together and fight for the same thing.

Most people want to belong to something greater than themselves whether they know it or not.  Canadian nationalism will and has been replaced by Quebec nationalism, aboriginal nationalism, Muslim "ummah" nationalism, Sikh-punjabi nationalism, Chinese nationalism, Italian nationalism, and the list goes on forever.  Because that's what multiculturalism demands.  Post-national state is another name for a state of competing sub-nations.

I don't resent you, or immigrants, I mainly resent the voters and politicians who implement and/or put up with this crap.

If I were in charge, dual citizenship would be banned, those who resisted would be stripped of their Canadian citizenship (born here or not), and every voter would have to recite Canada's oath of allegiance before voting in every federal election.  If you refused, you don't vote.  And I would change the oath to something more akin to the American less watered-down version + some reference to the Crown:

“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_States)#Text

Edited by Moonlight Graham

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16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The shootings are not related to the guns, it's easy enough to get guns in Canada, I'm well armed myself, better armed than the average American.

The shootings are related to culture and mass media.

It's both.  Guns are not as easy to get here, and Canadians don't want them or feel they need them either.

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8 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's both.  Guns are not as easy to get here, and Canadians don't want them or feel they need them either.

The RCMP background check doesn't stop mass shooters, they usually have clean records before hand, Marc Lepine passed his background check without any problems before he went on his... wait. . .you know what? Never mind

I don't care what Canadians think about the second amendment.   Don't live in the home of the brave if you can't handle the freedom, you were right the first time.

Edited by Dougie93

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17 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If I were in charge, dual citizenship would be banned, those who resisted would be stripped of their Canadian citizenship (born here or not)

I'd just shrug and leave for America. That would be the opportunity to get my wife to move.

Canada is a frozen shit hole for half the year, I'm only here because of my wife, if not for her I would have moved to the sun belt long time ago.

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9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The RCMP background check doesn't stop mass shooters, they usually have clean records before hand, Marc Lepine passed his background check without any problems before he went on his... wait. . .you know what? Never mind

I don't care what Canadians think about the second amendment.   Don't live in the home of the brave if you can't handle the freedom, you were right the first time.

The 2nd amendment doesn't do anything except get civilians and politicians shot by other civilians while people wait around staying armed vs a theoretical enemy that never shows up.  As I said, no i can't handle that freedom.  Freedom to life and security of the person is better IMO.

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