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Over the past few years I have learned that some pregnancies were accidental and not entirely preventable. But I have also learned that a lot of those accidents ended in full term pregnancy and birth with the intent of only the woman. 

For example : We have a man and a woman, they agree to have sex with each other for the sake of pleasure, thus a strong birth control is used. However due to potential statistical birth control failure it turns out two months later she finds out that she is pregnant.  Now legally speaking she has a few options, she can abort the pregnancy or allow a full term pregnancy with post birth options. 

However, in this case the man has no options, in fact the woman forces actions upon him, infringing on his freedoms as a would be father or none father. Given that the man and woman do not stay together as a family,  If the would be “mother “decides to raise the child, the would be “father” would have to pay child support. If the “mother” decides to get an abortion the “father” has no rights to deny the abortion. 

(Now I am not going to say the “father” should have a right to force the “mother” to give birth to a child she does not wish to have, although some arguments could be made for such cases. For instance, if she does not wish to have the baby and wishes to abort, then she would be liable for compensation to the “father” as  he has lost the ability to have that child, “denial of child” support. So basically if the woman wants to abort she would have to pay the man “denial of child support for the next 18 years, a reverse of the situation. ( again this is too extreme and would never happen))

Lets look at a different option, say the woman wishes to have the baby, however the man does not wish to have the baby (he does not wish to become a father). Could a system be in place where when accidental pregnancy happens and the woman wishes to have a child, the man can optionally pay the abortion equivalency financial amount or give a certain amount of time so that he is released of all liabilities to the baby after birth as a father/caretaker? In other words, the would be father pays a certain amount equivalent to an abortion, to ensure that he is not legally the father and he has no duty to pay child care. This gives semi rights to both parties involved vs a system were all decisions are made by the woman. 

 

Current system:

Sex               Abortion?               Accepting pregnancy?                     agree?                                        Result?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

Woman>       yes/no                              yes/no                                they both agree                      equal, mother/none, success

Man >            yes/no                              yes/no                                they both agree                       equal, father/none, success

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

Woman>         no                                       yes                                           NO                            Mother, gets child support +18

Man >             yes                                      no                                             NO                      Forced fatherhood, forced child support +18 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Woman>        yes                                       no                                            NO                         She has abortion, no further action

Man >             no                                        yes                                          NO                 He has no father rights, no ability for further action 


 

Amendment recommendation:

Sex             Abortion?                   Accepting pregnancy?                     agree?                                                                                   Result?

Woman>       no                                         yes                                             NO                              Mother gives birth to the baby, accepts abortion financial aid equivalency

Man >          yes                                          no                                               NO                             He has no fatherly rights to the baby, pays financial abortion aid equivalency

 

Thoughts?

 

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4 hours ago, Anthony said:

However due to potential statistical birth control failure it turns out two months later she finds out that she is pregnant.

However, in this case the man has no options, in fact the woman forces actions upon him, infringing on his freedoms as a would be father or none father

People who don't want to be parents don't leave all the birth control up to the other person.

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I think a man should have the same choice for an abortion as women.  If he chooses to have one, he never sees the child or has any responsibility for it.

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14 hours ago, dialamah said:

People who don't want to be parents don't leave all the birth control up to the other person.

I agree a responsible person generally does not get surprised by a pregnancy, since they have the self control to use proper protection. I was more referring to failed birth control or possible malicious actions caused by either party ( ie poking holes in condoms). One of the more common surprised pregnancies is when birth control pills are accidentally not taken. 

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Dave Chapelle tackled this issue in his latest Netflix Special. 

"If you can kill this muthafucker, I can at least abandon him."

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26 minutes ago, Anthony said:

I agree a responsible person generally does not get surprised by a pregnancy, since they have the self control to use proper protection. I was more referring to failed birth control or possible malicious actions caused by either party ( ie poking holes in condoms). One of the more common surprised pregnancies is when birth control pills are accidentally not taken. 

Condoms do break or fall off. Plan B is there for that, but what if the woman refuses to take it? 

I'm astonished that men will automatically believe a woman, that she's regularly and responsibly taking a pill and that means they don't have to control their seed. 

Edited by Boges
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6 hours ago, Boges said:

Condoms do break or fall off. Plan B is there for that, but what if the woman refuses to take it? 

I'm astonished that men will automatically believe a woman, that she's regularly and responsibly taking a pill and that means they don't have to control their seed. 

 

I was not aware of how known this is, known enough that Dave Chapelle  can talk about it freely apparently, thanks for sharing. 

 

I agree, and what ends up happening is completely up to the woman even though the intent was not to reproduce. 

Or the " you know how hard it is to get pregnant, it wont happen just this one time", many children have been made by irrational in the moment decisions. But I do wonder how many children would exist if both parties had a choice in the manner. I also wonder how many children would still be around if the mother knew that she would get no financial support of the would be father. 

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33 minutes ago, Anthony said:

if the mother knew that she would get no financial support of the would be father. 

Kind of stupid imo.  If you boys can't keep it put away don't whinge about the consequences.  Babies are one of the consequences of sex and if your condom breaks or her birth control fails, a baby may happen.  Complaining that she can opt out but you can't ignores the reality that women take all the risks of pregnancy or abortion, so it is their decision which risk they're more willing to take.

Child support is government-mandated because why should taxpayers be on the hook for your babies?  Not to mention the concerted effort, in the States, to deny women access to both abortion and birth control, the way conservatives and the religious right in Canada shames women for having babies they "can't afford" and also shaming them for having abortions - and maybe you'll get an idea why you don't get to just walk away free and clear from a baby you took part in creating.

Edited by dialamah

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Kind of stupid imo.  If you boys can't keep it put away don't whinge about the consequences.  Babies are one of the consequences of sex and if your condom breaks or her birth control fails, a baby may happen.  Complaining that she can opt out but you can't ignores the reality that women take all the risks of pregnancy or abortion, so it is their decision which risk they're more willing to take.

Child support is government-mandated because why should taxpayers be on the hook for your babies?  Not to mention the concerted effort, in the States, to deny women access to both abortion and birth control, the way conservatives and the religious right in Canada shames women for having babies they "can't afford" and also shaming them for having abortions - and maybe you'll get an idea why you don't get to just walk away free and clear from a baby you took part in creating.

I disagree.  I'm pro choice, and pro equality.  I don't believe a woman has to take responsibility and not whinge about the consequences so I don't see why a man should.  The reasons you give why a woman should be able to opt out but a man should not do not make sense to me.  A woman has to go through the pregnancy, which I hear is not much fun, but I can't imagine being on the hook for an unwanted offspring until it reaches 18 is much fun either.

 

Edited by bcsapper

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14 hours ago, dialamah said:

Child support is government-mandated because why should taxpayers be on the hook for your babies?  Not to mention the concerted effort, in the States, to deny women access to both abortion and birth control, the way conservatives and the religious right in Canada shames women for having babies they "can't afford" and also shaming them for having abortions - and maybe you'll get an idea why you don't get to just walk away free and clear from a baby you took part in creating.

Well, in Canada, access to abortions are not an issue. Especially if the "fetus" is unwanted from the get-go. 

We've decided, as a society, not to force a women to have a child she doesn't want, but we don't have a problem forcing a man to support a child he doesn't want. 

Is it always the man's fault when birth control does fail? 

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10 minutes ago, Boges said:

Is it always the man's fault when birth control does fail? 

No, but it's his risk as much as the woman's that sex will result in s pregnancy.  Men need to understand that. 

Too many men, and women, want to put all the responsibility of birth control and all the consequences of pregnancy on the woman, with the man "opting in" if he feels like being a dad, financially or otherwise.  Women  not men, deal with societal censure for getting pregnant when they lack money, and getting an abortion for any reason  including because they lack money.  

Men need to understand that a possible consequence of pregnancy is a child who will need a father.  If they don't want that, they should use a condom regardless of the birth control the woman uses.  They should know the woman's moral or religious stance on abortion before having sex.   Boys should be taught this from a young age  the same way girls are taught to avoid putting themselves in situations where they could be raped.

Life isn't fair, the best we can do is mitigate risk.

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47 minutes ago, Boges said:

Well, in Canada, access to abortions are not an issue. Especially if the "fetus" is unwanted from the get-go.

 

Not true....

 

Quote

Because some provinces have failed to provide accessible or funded abortion services as per the Canada Health Act, access to abortion is still difficult for many people, especially those in rural, remote, or conservative areas; minority and immigrant women; low-income women; teenagers; transgender people, and other disadvantaged groups.

Lack of access to abortion violates women’s and trans peoples’ constitutional rights, but governments often lack the political will to make abortion accessible. Even the medical profession has succumbed to anti-abortion pressure by not performing abortions or training providers.

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/backrounders/access.html

 

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2 hours ago, dialamah said:

No, but it's his risk as much as the woman's that sex will result in s pregnancy.  Men need to understand that. 

Too many men, and women, want to put all the responsibility of birth control and all the consequences of pregnancy on the woman, with the man "opting in" if he feels like being a dad, financially or otherwise.  Women  not men, deal with societal censure for getting pregnant when they lack money, and getting an abortion for any reason  including because they lack money.  

Men need to understand that a possible consequence of pregnancy is a child who will need a father.  If they don't want that, they should use a condom regardless of the birth control the woman uses.  They should know the woman's moral or religious stance on abortion before having sex.   Boys should be taught this from a young age  the same way girls are taught to avoid putting themselves in situations where they could be raped.

Life isn't fair, the best we can do is mitigate risk.

Absolutely, both men and women contribute to reproduction and share the risk of reproduction. Yes women are at a higher risk and are affected by the consequences of pregnancy. Women are the holders of reproduction, women inherently have to be smart when having sex, because it effects them more than a man. IE if this is a one night stand and not a long term  possible "dad" then maybe strong birth control should be used. Vise versa if a man has a one night stand and the woman is not a long term possible " mother" than strong birth control should be used, yet he has no control after the fact if the birth control fails, where as she does.  

Women deal with societal censure, why?  Societal censure come from making bad decisions made by men or women, not from pregnancy or abortion.

I think men do understand the possible consequences of pregnancy. In my opinion if you told a man or a woman right before sex that this would result in pregnancy I doubt most would continue. 

My concern is that there is an unspoken contract where if you use a condom or women use birth control and have sex, the intent of that sex is for pleasure and specifically not to reproduce. Yet once pregnancy is confirmed, that contract is assumed to be void, why?

The other option is to terminate:

Man and woman have sex, birth control was used by either or both participants, she gets pregnant.  Since birth control was used it means the woman goes through an automatic abortion by law, she has no choice, he has no choice since the choice was made before the act of having sex by using birth control. Simple and equal.  

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14 minutes ago, Anthony said:

Women deal with societal censure, why?  Societal censure come from making bad decisions made by men or women, not from pregnancy or abortion.

In which case, women are in a lose-lose situation because even in our progressive society, if they have a baby out-of-wedlock, they are censured, especially if they don't have much money.  If they have an abortion, they are censured for being careless "using abortion as birth control", and being a murderer.  

Men are only censured if they fail to pay child support, and you'd be surprised by how many men simply disappear, even on kids they said they wanted, leaving the woman to raise them.

It isn't fair, I agree.  Men and women make mistakes and there are consequences.  Men who think abortion availability should be their "get out of jail free" card do not understand that many women, while supporting abortion in the abstract, would never have an abortion themselves for moral or religious reasons.   They underestimate the effect birth control, abortion and pregnancy can have on a woman's body and mental health and over-estimate women's dishonesty and avarice to justify their desire for consequence-free sex.  It isn't fair, and men have to take their lumps just like women do when it comes to unintended pregnancy.

45 minutes ago, Anthony said:

My concern is that there is an unspoken contract where if you use a condom or women use birth control and have sex, the intent of that sex is for pleasure and specifically not to reproduce.

"Unspoken contract" does not exist.  If you want a contract, get it in writing.

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19 minutes ago, dialamah said:

In which case, women are in a lose-lose situation because even in our progressive society, if they have a baby out-of-wedlock, they are censured, especially if they don't have much money.  If they have an abortion, they are censured for being careless "using abortion as birth control", and being a murderer.  

Men are only censured if they fail to pay child support, and you'd be surprised by how many men simply disappear, even on kids they said they wanted, leaving the woman to raise them.

It isn't fair, I agree.  Men and women make mistakes and there are consequences.  Men who think abortion availability should be their "get out of jail free" card do not understand that many women, while supporting abortion in the abstract, would never have an abortion themselves for moral or religious reasons.   They underestimate the effect birth control, abortion and pregnancy can have on a woman's body and mental health and over-estimate women's dishonesty and avarice to justify their desire for consequence-free sex.  It isn't fair, and men have to take their lumps just like women do when it comes to unintended pregnancy.

"Unspoken contract" does not exist.  If you want a contract, get it in writing.

Yes women will be censured for making bad decisions and carelessness with sex since they are the key holders to reproduction. Yes men will be censured for making bad decisions and carelessness with sex since they are the providers of sperm. I do not think this is a bad thing, you do not want to encourage people to make bad decisions in society. 

Men are censured especially if they go around having unprotected sex with women, not only STI transmission but also the high risk of getting a woman pregnant. It is very irresponsible and looked down upon in a social setting, even with other men.  

Woman are not the victims of pregnancy, they have an equal role in decision to have unprotected sex, they currently have the unanimous decision of continuing until birth.  Fortunately, We live in a society were women can say no at any point during sex, we are not talking about women who are forced into sex/rape, we are talking a woman and man enter into a mutual agreement to have sex, if that sex is not protected both the man and the woman are at fault for not stopping.

"They underestimate the effect birth control, abortion and pregnancy can have on a woman's body and mental health" I agree some men do underestimate those effects, that is true. But coming back to my post, what happens when a man does take the responsibility of using a condom, it breaks, it has a hole in it or somehow she gets pregnant, either by choice or by accident and she wants to keep the baby. It can not be that even though the man took the required responsibility and use birth control, he is still forced to provide or be a father to the kid just because she demands it of him. 

Would an acceptable system work if every time a man and woman have sex,  they sign a contract stating it is purely for pleasure and not reproduction, in that it would automatically void any responsibility to the possible child by of either party?

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