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Ethnic diversity harms a country's social cohesion

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4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

As always, I wear the barbs of mine adversaries as a badge of honor, and barbed thus take their opinions under advisement as hostile witness.

 

Yeah, me too, probably.

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3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

But it isn't though, no matter how much you think it might as well be.  The idea that being opposed to the excesses of a brutal religion is somehow racist is ridiculous.

It's the manner and tone of the opposition that's at issue. Right wingers can't oppose Islam it seems without being a bunch of sneering assholes about it.  I think this stems directly from their absolute rejection of the idea that the West's brutal excesses had or have anything at all to do with causing so many Muslims to feel the need to be excessively brutal in response.

The idea that the west is responsible for anything is blasphemously anathema to many, especially to those in power, and opposition to it is so loaded with suspended disbelief that its as predictably excessive and brutal as any primitive religion.

Edited by eyeball

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

It's the manner and tone of the opposition that's at issue. Right wingers can't oppose Islam it seems without being a bunch of sneering assholes about it.  I think this stems directly from their absolute rejection of the idea that the West's brutal excesses had or have anything at all to do with causing so many Muslims to feel the need to be excessively brutal in response.

The idea that the west is responsible for anything is blasphemously anathema to many, especially to those in power, and opposition to it is so loaded with suspended disbelief that its as predictably excessive and brutal as any primitive religion.

Ah, so we are agreed about the issues, it's just that you think the death penalty for blasphemy is rather poor form, whereas I think it's barbaric brutality?

Do you think the excesses of Islamic terrorism excuse Islamophobia?

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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Do you think the excesses of Islamic terrorism excuse Islamophobia?

No, I think terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly.

There is no excuse for Islamophobia.

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No, I think terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly.

There is no excuse for Islamophobia.

So blowing up people whose only crime is that they look like people who have blown up people who look like you is okay, but yelling insults at them on the bus is not? 

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Just now, bcsapper said:

So blowing up people whose only crime is that they look like people who have blown up people who look like you is okay, but yelling insults at them on the bus is not? 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Why? Where or how does what he wrote relate to what I said?

And, I think THAT is also obvious - to anyone with any sense of reason at all.

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Just now, cannuck said:

And, I think THAT is also obvious - to anyone with any sense of reason at all.

No, whatever shit it is that's going thru your head right now it's only obvious to an Islamophobe what it means.

You don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you?

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Just now, eyeball said:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

You said terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly. 

But it's not necessarily those who have been treated badly acting against those who treated them badly.  It's other members of the first group acting against innocent members of the second group.  The concert goers in Manchester or Paris, for example, did not do anything at all to warrant their murders.  Similarly, a Muslim who is abused because of hatred engendered by the aforementioned acts did not do anything to warrant the abuse.  In one case, people are destroyed, or at the very least, awfully injured, and that's excusable to you.  In the other, they are offended and their feelings are hurt, and that is not excusable to you. Or are you just talking about the Ottawa Mosque shooting, which I would put on a par with the bombings?

For my part, I'd excuse neither.

 

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Just now, bcsapper said:

You said terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly. 

You disagree?

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17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You disagree?

I don't know whether or not hurting someone who doesn't deserve it due to anger at someone else's actions would be considered natural, but if it would, then it would apply to both sides.  Like I said, I excuse neither.  I might be unnatural. 

But to excuse one and not the other takes effort, I think.

Why not just call Islamophobia terrorism, then there's no issue with excusing it.

Edited by bcsapper

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10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't know whether hurting someone who doesn't deserve it due to anger at someone else's actions would be considered natural, but if it would, then it would apply to both sides. 

Yes but we're talking about a response to Western excesses of a sort often resulting in the horrific deaths of thousands and often miserable lives of millions more. You think its natural for shining beacons of democracy to behave towards oppressed societies by backing their oppressors?  How do you think you'd feel or respond if it was you or your family suffering due to this? Naturally I suspect.

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Like I said, I excuse neither.  I might be unnatural.

OTOH you could just be morally vacuous. That's completely natural when trying to deny complicity in the root causes of terrorism and making excuses for Islamophobia.

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9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yes but we're talking about a response to Western excesses of a sort often resulting in the horrific deaths of thousands and often miserable lives of millions more. You think its natural for shining beacons of democracy to behave towards oppressed societies by backing their oppressors?  How do you think you'd feel or respond if it was you or your family suffering due to this? Naturally I suspect.

OTOH you could just be morally vacuous. That's completely natural when trying to deny complicity in the root causes of terrorism and making excuses for Islamophobia.

I don't think so.  How would you react if your family member had been hurt in an Islamic terrorist attack?  Given your stated views, I can't imagine you would go out and hurt an innocent Muslim.  Why excuse someone who goes out and hurts an innocent westerner?

As for my moral state, I think it is completely immoral to assess race and colour before condemning actions. 

I wasn't making excuses for Islamophobia.  I said I would be against it. (obviously)

I was objecting to you making excuses for terrorism, and could not understand the difference in responses.  Still don't.  Unless it's just the colour and race thing.

Edited by bcsapper

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9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't think so.  How would you react if your family member had been hurt in an Islamic terrorist attack?  Given your stated views, I can't imagine you would go out and hurt an innocent Muslim.  Why excuse someone who goes out and hurts an innocent westerner?

You have to remember that to people on the far Left, any violence committed by a brown man or group of brown men, or brown nations is the responsibility of a white man, or white society, or a white country, someone white who provoked it. Brown people, and they presume all Muslims are brown people, bear no responsibility for their actions because... well let's face it, they aren't really humans. I mean, they're not white, so we'd be awfully damn cruel to try and judge them on the same basis we do fellow human beings! That's why conservatives are racists, because they cruelly judge these poor brown people by the same standards as they would white people. And that's SO unfair!

People who have different standards based on race are racists. And that's pretty much all progressives.

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12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I was objecting to you making excuses for terrorism, and could not understand the difference in responses.

You're conflating excusing with understanding because you're in denial.  Is that deliberate? It feels like it.

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23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're conflating excusing with understanding because you're in denial.  Is that deliberate? It feels like it.

It was what I read, but I'm not tied to it.  If I was wrong, so be it.

Do you understand both responses the same?  Do you excuse neither, just the same?

I understand neither, in that I'm not going to hurt you if your brother hurts mine.  I just couldn't do it.

And I excuse neither too, of course.

Edited by bcsapper

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It was what I read, but I'm not tied to it.  If I was wrong, tell me so.

You show me, you're the one who says I'm making excuses.

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Do you understand both responses the same?  Do you excuse neither, just the same?

I don't excuse western excesses and I understand the resulting terrorism.

Quote

 

I understand neither, in that I'm not going to hurt you if your brother hurts mine.  I just couldn't do it.

And I excuse neither too, of course.

 

We're talking about big immense faceless governments and societal responses to these.  Your cute little analogies are worthless as far as any kind of moral signposts goes. 

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5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You show me, you're the one who says I'm making excuses.

I don't excuse western excesses and I understand the resulting terrorism.

We're talking about big immense faceless governments and societal responses to these.  Your cute little analogies are worthless as far as any kind of moral signposts goes. 

Well, I edited my post before you responded, because I thought my response harsh, but it was based on your

Quote

No, I think terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly.

Once again, I wonder why you don't think all responses to violence against a group understandable.  Why just responses to western excesses?  Why not responses to Islamic excesses?

You describing my analogies as cute and little merely means you haven't a clue how to answer them.  You value some lives more than others, based on your politics and the views of race relations those politics instill in you.

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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, I edited my post before you responded, because I thought my response harsh, but it was based on your

your...?

Quote

Once again, I wonder why you don't think all responses to violence against a group understandable.  Why just responses to western excesses?  Why not responses to Islamic excesses?

You're saying Islam has been installing and propping up dictators throughout the west?

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You describing my analogies as cute and little merely means you haven't a clue how to answer them.

I haven't got time to address them. Address them and you'll just come up with some new deflection. Rinse and repeat, as it likely will be for generations now.

Quote

You value some lives more than others, based on your politics and the views of race relations those politics instill in you.

I certainly don't give a shit about people who keep forgetting excusing and denying how western excess in the Muslim world has triggered so much Muslim terrorism, Islamophobia, western nationalism, aversion to ethnic diversity and racism.

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19 minutes ago, eyeball said:

your...?

You're saying Islam has been installing and propping up dictators throughout the west?

I haven't got time to address them. Address them and you'll just come up with some new deflection. Rinse and repeat, as it likely will be for generations now.

I certainly don't give a shit about people who keep forgetting excusing and denying how western excess in the Muslim world has triggered so much Muslim terrorism, Islamophobia, western nationalism, aversion to ethnic diversity and racism.

In my post there's a quote of yours following my "your".  Does it not show up for you?  It said: No, I think terrorism is a natural response of humans that have been treated excessively badly.

No, I'm saying the idea of killing innocents (or abusing them on the subway) in response to the actions of people who look like them is wrong.  You seem to agree only halfway, for some reason.  And the bit you think is okay is the killing bit, not the abusing bit.  Or if not okay, then at least understandable, as stated above.

I think your third sentence is a deflection.

What about their relatives and friends?  If they happen to be along when the people whose crime is nothing more than forgetting and denying are blown to bits, is their reduction to their component molecules also not worth giving a shit about?

Edited by bcsapper

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9 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Or if not okay, then at least understandable, as stated above.

Understanding why someone (or a group or a country) does something doesn't mean you agree with it or think it's right.  

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23 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Understanding why someone (or a group or a country) does something doesn't mean you agree with it or think it's right.  

It clearly does mean that to these bozos.

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20 hours ago, eyeball said:

It might as well be the way you denigrate them.

You're no better than the Mufti.

 

You're free to support Islam and wish its critics dead...that is VERY Islamic.

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