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Ethnic diversity harms a country's social cohesion

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27 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

But it's not all Muslims.  Sure it's some.  Do you have any Muslim friends?  I have a few, these particular Muslims are nice people and don't want to overthrow our government or kill Jews.  Broad generalizations about all members of huge groups is called stereotyping.

These ghettos should be under massive surveillance by the police, I would have cops driving the streets constantly, I would have them inside mosques.

I think that's the point.  The not all Muslims argument is meant to shut down legitimate comment by implying the commentor is a racist, or at least indulging in unfounded stereotyping.

I usually say something like "not all of them, of course", to try and forestall such tactics.

Edited by bcsapper
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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

They all did, I think.  Unless you voted for no-hopers.  Which I have done in the past, did during the last provincial election, and am going to do again in October.  It won't change anything.

It won't help it which is better than nothing.

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13 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I think that's the point.  The not all Muslims argument is meant to shut down legitimate comment by implying the commentor is a racist, or at least indulging in unfounded stereotyping.

I usually say something like "not all of them, of course", to try and forestall such tactics.

And as has been pointed out, not all Germans were Nazis. Most of them weren't, in fact. But the Nazis had the initiative, and the influence and the power, and the rest went along with them. Either because they agreed, or because they disagreed a little but not all that much, or because they figured it wasn't really their business, or because they were afraid. Regardless of the reason, it enabled the Nazis in what they did.

Not all Pakistanis are crazed religious maniacs, either. But they're all mostly quiet about things like blaspheme laws, and the hardline punishments for violation of various koranic prohibitions because, well, they disagree but only a little, or because they figure it's not their business or because they're afraid. Regardless, it means the Islamists have the stage and get to control the country's culture and laws.

It's never ALL the people. It doesn't have to be ALL the people, or even the majority. It just has to be a loud, violent, determined minority and they wind up running things.

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13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

these particular Muslims are nice people

I'm sure there are lots of lovely Muslims.  But this says nothing about Islam.

Lots of men are not rapists, yet most rapists are men.  Just because you can point out men who do not rape, does not suggest we should not worry about this.  And pointing out the fact that rape is a largely male crime is not hateful, sexist or bigoted.

Several global surveys have shown that the positions held by most Muslims when it comes to a wide range of liberal views (freedom of speech, rights of religious minorities, gay rights, women's rights, apostacy, etc.) are not pretty positions and that a sizeable portion hold views that are at odds with the values on which Western culture is based.  So what do we do with this information?

Should we refrain from having an open discussion on the matter since the majority of Muslims are peaceful?  Should we ignore the daily carnage that is carried on throughout the world in the name of Islam?  How do you tackle these issues when the mere hint of criticism is labeled unacceptable - racist and Islamophobic?

Thousands of people are being beheaded, murdered and raped by members of Islam.  Yet some see no reason to examine whether their positions might be religiously based and instead spout out empty, childish platitudes to appear "tolerant".  The truth is not irrelevant.  And it is wrong for a group of people to threaten and engage in repeated violence should their religious feelings be hurt.  No one has the right to never be religiously offended - not even Muslims.  Blasphemy laws belong in the Dark Ages.  And so do a lot of other Islamic beliefs.

 

 

Edited by Goddess
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16 hours ago, Goddess said:

Thousands of people are being beheaded, murdered and raped by members of Islam.  Yet some see no reason to examine whether their positions might be religiously based and instead spout out empty, childish platitudes to appear "tolerant". 

Many times more Muslims do not engage in the vile behaviour that you seem to only attribute to Muslims. So who represents Muslims? The small minority that you keep highlighting or the overwhelming majority that you don't like discussing?

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5 hours ago, marcus said:

Many times more Muslims do not engage in the vile behaviour that you seem to only attribute to Muslims. So who represents Muslims? The small minority that you keep highlighting or the overwhelming majority that you don't like discussing?

You mean the overwhelming majority that the polls say support death for blasphemy, apostasy and homosexuality? That overwhelming majority?

If someone doesn't actually kill a blasphemer, or an adulterer, but supports laws that do, does that make them a kindly, moderate Muslim in your eyes?

Edited by Argus

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On 9/20/2019 at 11:47 AM, Goddess said:

I'm sure there are lots of lovely Muslims.  But this says nothing about Islam.

Lots of men are not rapists, yet most rapists are men.  Just because you can point out men who do not rape, does not suggest we should not worry about this.  And pointing out the fact that rape is a largely male crime is not hateful, sexist or bigoted.

Several global surveys have shown that the positions held by most Muslims when it comes to a wide range of liberal views (freedom of speech, rights of religious minorities, gay rights, women's rights, apostacy, etc.) are not pretty positions and that a sizeable portion hold views that are at odds with the values on which Western culture is based.  So what do we do with this information?

Should we refrain from having an open discussion on the matter since the majority of Muslims are peaceful?  Should we ignore the daily carnage that is carried on throughout the world in the name of Islam?  How do you tackle these issues when the mere hint of criticism is labeled unacceptable - racist and Islamophobic?

Thousands of people are being beheaded, murdered and raped by members of Islam.  Yet some see no reason to examine whether their positions might be religiously based and instead spout out empty, childish platitudes to appear "tolerant".  The truth is not irrelevant.  And it is wrong for a group of people to threaten and engage in repeated violence should their religious feelings be hurt.  No one has the right to never be religiously offended - not even Muslims.  Blasphemy laws belong in the Dark Ages.  And so do a lot of other Islamic beliefs.

All rapists are not men. All men are not rapists. Are you saying all men are responsible for rape? This analogy is supposed to prove what? 

Your religious objections are irrelevant. Who cares what "Islam" says? Who cares what Christianity says? Who cares what Judaism says? Not me. Lol

These religious wars are disgusting. Fighting over nonsense. Stop trying to pretend you can justify your xenophobia by criticizing a religion.  That's as much nonsense as religions are. Lol 

Extremist Islamic terrorists who kill Muslims are like extremist white supremacist terrorists who kill white people: They hate "traitors" the most. They are deranged and often outcast by limited intelligence and mental disabilities, they are easily brainwashed by violent  sociopathic leaders, and they become poisoned with hatred, become criminals. 

We have a much bigger problem with white supremacists in Canada than we do with Muslims. 

Muslims come to Canada for peace, to raise their families in relative safety, to get away from the extremism and violence, because their countries have been destroyed by western wars-for-profit that intentionally foment and fund Islamic terrorism. 

Let me know when we have any of these issues with Muslims in Canada. Hint: We don't. We have laws and law enforcement for any issues that do arise. 

I don't think you're just having "open discussion". I think you're promoting hatred against Muslims. 

Edited by jacee

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11 hours ago, Argus said:

You mean the overwhelming majority that the polls say support death for blasphemy, apostasy and homosexuality? That overwhelming majority?

If someone doesn't actually kill a blasphemer, or an adulterer, but supports laws that do, does that make them a kindly, moderate Muslim in your eyes?

Link?

You are also just promoting hatred against Muslims.

It seems to me that you hate everybody except white supremacists. Or, excuse me, do you prefer to be called a white 'nationalist'? 

Edited by jacee
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15 hours ago, jacee said:

Link?

The PEW surveys have been published scores of times before in these discussions and you know it. Your request is not an honest one.

15 hours ago, jacee said:

You are also just promoting hatred against Muslims.

You are full of crap. You know nothing of the law and don't have the brains to understand what it says.

15 hours ago, jacee said:

It seems to me that you hate everybody except white supremacists. Or, excuse me, do you prefer to be called a white 'nationalist'? 

I hate morons. Which is why you and I don't get along.

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On 9/21/2019 at 6:16 PM, jacee said:

All rapists are not men. All men are not rapists.

Yes, that's what I said. 

Quote

Are you saying all men are responsible for rape?

No.  Try reading again but without the self-righteous indignation that makes it difficult for you to comprehend what is actually being said.  You look like a complete fool right  now.

 

Quote

This analogy is supposed to prove what?

**sigh**

 

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:17 AM, marcus said:

Many times more Muslims do not engage in the vile behaviour that you seem to only attribute to Muslims. So who represents Muslims? The small minority that you keep highlighting or the overwhelming majority that you don't like discussing?

Who is representing Muslims....Muslims are representing themselves. every time a Muslim terrorist blows up a market full of Muslims... where is the Muslim world in condemning this acts, taking action positive action like assimilating into American culture, Dearborn Mich does not sound like they love being American, or there culture...and broad casting that to the western world...yes there are a few examples....but on 9/11 how many Muslim nations cheered the deaths of American civilians.. many more than the  Muslim nations who are condemning terrorist and hunting them down in there own countries or around the Muslim world........all Both sides have created is divides...

The small portion of Muslims  are creating the problems the rest are for the most part silent....

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54 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Who is representing Muslims....Muslims are representing themselves. every time a Muslim terrorist blows up a market full of Muslims... where is the Muslim world in condemning this acts, taking action positive action like assimilating into American culture, Dearborn Mich does not sound like they love being American, or there culture...and broad casting that to the western world...yes there are a few examples....but on 9/11 how many Muslim nations cheered the deaths of American civilians.. many more than the  Muslim nations who are condemning terrorist and hunting them down in there own countries or around the Muslim world........all Both sides have created is divides...

The small portion of Muslims  are creating the problems the rest are for the most part silent....

Assimilating into American culture or western culture will not make the middle east's problems go away. And the many are not responsible for the few's actions. Holding every Muslim accountable for another's bad act isn't rational nor reasonable. 

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11 minutes ago, Abies said:

Assimilating into American culture or western culture will not make the middle east's problems go away. And the many are not responsible for the few's actions. Holding every Muslim accountable for another's bad act isn't rational nor reasonable. 

The problem with islam is the same thing that was wrong with Germany when Hitler was running the country:

There are certainly decent moderate people that live in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, but even if they're in the majority, they're irrelevant because they're not standing up to the powers that be and they're not eradicating terrorism. 

If there were 1M people in Canada who were radical a-holes, and the other 35M didn't rein them in, then Canada would be the next Germany/Pakistan. The 35M can be as nice as pie, it still wouldn't stop Canada from being a shithole unless they stood up and did something.

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13 hours ago, Abies said:

Assimilating into American culture or western culture will not make the middle east's problems go away. And the many are not responsible for the few's actions. Holding every Muslim accountable for another's bad act isn't rational nor reasonable. 

If Muslims can not help themselves  with this image problem then who is going to do it ? 

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On 9/10/2019 at 4:15 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

This is a really stupid comment Argus.  You're afraid of a hijab?  It's a harmless headscarf.  Covering the entire face like a burka or niqab is a bit different and far more controlling and isolating, you're living like a slave to your husband, but nuns where a freaking hijab, like jews who wear yamaka's or Sikh's wearing turbans.  These clothing don't interfere with social bonds or cohesion.

Not a stupid comment from Argus. About 12 years ago I had the pleasure of socializing and interacting with Muslims. Not a good experience. It did not bother me at the time. My thoughts were, it's their religion and I did not judge. Until my children were playing with other Muslim children and mothers rudely separated their children from mine. And then in another instance my eight year old daughter was being pressured into wearing a Hijab from a Muslim neighbor. I was judged and comments were made on my clothing.  I was very hurt. In the public parks they bring their carpets and pray, sometimes right next to the rest areas. The women sit on one bench and the men another. I could share other stories from my personal experiences that are not good. I have been left feeling that the idealogy of Islam, and it's followers are not to be made friends with - nor do they intend to truly make friends with us. 

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1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, etc. who migrate to Canada need to assimilate. 

lol.  Not according to Canada.   According to Canada, you can't even have a license plate which says 'ASIMIL8'

Lift up your head and look around, the Fake Country Post National State is all there is, there is nothing to assimilate to here anymore.

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On 9/25/2019 at 1:57 PM, Teena said:

Not a stupid comment from Argus. About 12 years ago I had the pleasure of socializing and interacting with Muslims. Not a good experience. It did not bother me at the time. My thoughts were, it's their religion and I did not judge. Until my children were playing with other Muslim children and mothers rudely separated their children from mine. And then in another instance my eight year old daughter was being pressured into wearing a Hijab from a Muslim neighbor. I was judged and comments were made on my clothing.  I was very hurt. In the public parks they bring their carpets and pray, sometimes right next to the rest areas. The women sit on one bench and the men another. I could share other stories from my personal experiences that are not good. I have been left feeling that the idealogy of Islam, and it's followers are not to be made friends with - nor do they intend to truly make friends with us. 

Maybe some, but certainly not all.  This is an over-generalization.  I have Muslim friends from different parts of the middle east that are great people.

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9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Maybe some, but certainly not all.  This is an over-generalization.  I have Muslim friends from different parts of the middle east that are great people.

Even if they're not friendly, they can exercise their first amendment rights.  Live and let live. 

If they escalate to threatening, that's where the second amendment comes into play.

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8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Maybe some, but certainly not all.  This is an over-generalization.  I have Muslim friends from different parts of the middle east that are great people.

Well your male so you would have a different experience then my own personal experiences or that of my daughters.

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On 9/25/2019 at 11:57 AM, Teena said:

Not a stupid comment from Argus. About 12 years ago I had the pleasure of socializing and interacting with Muslims. Not a good experience. It did not bother me at the time. My thoughts were, it's their religion and I did not judge. Until my children were playing with other Muslim children and mothers rudely separated their children from mine. And then in another instance my eight year old daughter was being pressured into wearing a Hijab from a Muslim neighbor. I was judged and comments were made on my clothing.  I was very hurt. In the public parks they bring their carpets and pray, sometimes right next to the rest areas. The women sit on one bench and the men another. I could share other stories from my personal experiences that are not good. I have been left feeling that the idealogy of Islam, and it's followers are not to be made friends with - nor do they intend to truly make friends with us. 

 

1 hour ago, Teena said:

Well your male so you would have a different experience then my own personal experiences or that of my daughters.

This has been my experience, as well.  The Muslims I interacted with generally treated me with disdain and some with outright hatred.  The men more so - understandable in a misogynistic religion.  But the women did, too.  I think it's because even though they are women, too - they are lowest on Islam's totem pole, lower even than male children.  Even though I'm female and that should bond us, I'm a white female and therefore viewed as even lower than a Muslim woman.  And treated thusly.

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4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

 

This has been my experience, as well.  The Muslims I interacted with generally treated me with disdain and some with outright hatred.  The men more so - understandable in a misogynistic religion.  But the women did, too.  I think it's because even though they are women, too - they are lowest on Islam's totem pole, lower even than male children.  Even though I'm female and that should bond us, I'm a white female and therefore viewed as even lower than a Muslim woman.  And treated thusly.

Thanks Goddess. The women are worse! It's jealousy? Can you share specifically of some of your experiences of hatred? 

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2 minutes ago, Teena said:

Thanks Goddess. The women are worse! It's jealousy? Can you share specifically of some of your experiences of hatred? 

I've shared some on here.  The worst was a Muslim man who threw a picture frame at my head, I deflected with my hand and needed stitches.  Because he showed up hours late for a doctor's appointment and I told him he would have to re-book.  He was arrested for assault and at the court hearing, even the judge (who was female) was treated with utter disdain by him and said that what happened to me was because of the low value he put on females, his feeling that a woman had no right to tell him "No".  Surprisingly, he was not an older man - he was early 20's, just going through life abusing any females he encountered because that's what he was taught.

So yes, I agree that these kinds of stone-age religious beliefs harm a country's social cohesion.  Especially when if you talk about it you're labeled an Islamophobe and a racist.

I also agree with you that women bear the brunt of Islam's hatreds - Jews and gays, too.  I dont' believe most men realize the little daily aggressions (and the big aggressions) that a lot of  women - Muslim women and white women - experience due to Islam's extreme misogynistic teachings.  They just keep spouting how these are "normal" interactions because men of all religions denigrate women, doncha know?  The need to divorce the behaviour from the religion's teachings is desperate.  

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4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've shared some on here.  The worst was a Muslim man who threw a picture frame at my head, I deflected with my hand and needed stitches.  Because he showed up hours late for a doctor's appointment and I told him he would have to re-book.  H

Thanks for sharing. That is terrible! I was just curious.  A Muslim once told me women are the problem re: temptation for man. Seriously, I thought God created us from a rib bone from man, so man would not be lonely. lol It's Monday morning! 

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Just now, Teena said:

Thanks for sharing. That is terrible! I was just curious.  A Muslim once told me women are the problem re: temptation for man. Seriously, I thought God created us from a rib bone from man, so man would not be lonely. lol It's Monday morning! 

God actually is the problem.  We were created by a chemical process that probably involved a few amino acids arriving on a welcoming planet via comet, and the rest was just time.

After a rather large amount of it, some idiot decided he needed a reason for the sun, or the wind, or some other such natural occurence, and we've been going downhill ever since.

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