Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 295
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This is a lie.

You can actually often tell a hell of a lot about someone by what they're wearing. At 83, or whatever you are, you should know this already.

You are engaging in a similar defective argument people make defending Trump. You try deflect from the  issue of Muslim extremism by raising criticism of  Western states' foreign policies and/or human

2 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I never said I was qualified.

Yet you think you're qualified to determine if others are qualified.

 

4 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Credible source?

Ummmm, the Quran.  You know it tells Muslim men to beat their wives if they fear disloyalty from her.  You can justify and spin it any way you want, but there is no comparable verse in either Jewish or Christian literature that tells men to beat their wives - either beat, scourge, "lightly beat", with a stick, with a toothbrush, with a hockey stick, whatever.  The instruction in the Quran is not just TO beat your wives, it also tells HOW to beat them and WHEN.

I believe this is one reason why Islam is pushing hijabs and burkas across the world - they cover a multitude of bruises.

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Why is she incorrect?

Most likely in my opinion, she doesn't want to cover and feels better about her life if she encourages others to do the same. But I really don't know.

39 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Because her interpretation  disagrees with your own?

I don't make my own interpretations.

40 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Maybe she has learned from a peaceful imam

I don't know of any Imam who teaches such and even if someone agrees with her main point, they would surely do better job at providing evidence and reasoning.

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You make these broad statements - "She is incorrect."

Because if you had any actual interest to know the truth you would do your own research – you would've already done it – instead of asking me to explain what many much more knowledgeable people have said for 1400 years.

56 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Her view

Her view is not the problem. The problem is she picks certain very few verses from the Quran – one of which she translates wrong. She is from India and I don't know if she speaks Arabic. She picks certain hadiths from among about 200,000 – among which are dozens of hadiths regarding clothing and hijab, which she ignores – and explains and interprets them as she likes.

By all apparences one would think she is trying to give a bad impression of Islam by so openly speaking what she knows nothing about and what she knows will leave a negative impression. Somehow she forgets the fact that Muslims are to dress and behave modestly – there is no way to interpret that away from the Quran and the Sunnah. She doesn't say 'Allah's peace and blessings be upon him' after mentioning the prophet Muhammad's (Sallaa lahu alayhi wa sallam) name.

She doesn't make her sources known appropriately or provide any proof that her interpretations are correct or even supported by anyone.

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Your's does not.

I don't believe you know much about my views.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Marocc said:

By all apparences one would think she is trying to give a bad impression of Islam

It's unfortunate that you think peaceful, progressive and reasonable Muslims are the ones giving a bad impression of Islam.

 

Quote

the fact that Muslims are to dress and behave modestly

Yes, both women AND men are to dress modestly.  Yet only the instruction to women has given rise to many (and often quite brutal) interpretations.

Edited by Goddess
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yet you think you're qualified to determine if others are qualified.

I study the opinions of qualified scholars. I can refer you to their speeches and writings regarding any statement I make. If I cannot I shall admit it is merely my own uncertain interpretation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Goddess said:

Ummmm, the Quran. 

The Quran disagrees so you are still expected to provide a credible source. In case you want to argue regarding the Quran you are free to provide a credible source regarding it – such as tafser or professionally analyzed words and expressions within the Arabic text that could help prove your claim.

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

You know it tells Muslim men to beat their wives if they fear disloyalty from her.

No, it doesn't. Here's what the Bible says, since you brought it up.

Numbers 5:15-22

15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing. 

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord.

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”  “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

Edited by Marocc
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Goddess said:

but there is no comparable verse in either Jewish or Christian literature that tells men to beat their wives - either beat, scourge, "lightly beat", with a stick, with a toothbrush, with a hockey stick, whatever.


Leviticus 19:20   And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Deuteronomy 25 11 “If [two] men, a man and his countryman, are fighting and the wife of one approaches to rescue her husband from the man who is striking him, and she reaches out with her hand and grabs the aggressor’s genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity [for her].

1 Corinthians 11 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.  7 A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Edited by Marocc
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Marocc said:

The Quran disagrees so you are still expected to provide a credible source. In case you want to argue regarding the Quran you are free to provide a credible source regarding it – such as tafser or professionally analyzed words and expressions within the Arabic text that could help prove your claim.

No, it doesn't. Here's what the Bible says, since you brought it up.

Numbers 5:15-22

15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing. 

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord.

17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.

20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”  “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

And if a man wanted to do this to his wife - where would he go?  Which church practices this?

 

8 minutes ago, Marocc said:


Leviticus 19:20   And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Deuteronomy 25 11 “If [two] men, a man and his countryman, are fighting and the wife of one approaches to rescue her husband from the man who is striking him, and she reaches out with her hand and grabs the aggressor’s genitals, 12 then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity [for her].

1 Corinthians 11 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.  7 A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

None of this is espousing beating your wife. 

And in case you didn't notice - Islam is about the only religion that cutting body parts off as punishments is still a thing.

Come join us in the 21st century - it's not perfect but the rest of us are ditching religious barbarity, while Islam is trying to revive it.

Here are actual verses in your book that tell how, when and why you should beat your wife:

 

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."  Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."  Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).

Sahih Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Sahih Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" Muhammad's own wife complained Muslim women were abused worse than other women.

Sahih Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Sahih Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's fathers-in-law (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." (This is graded sahih - authentic.  It is also reported in Sunan Ibn Majah 9:1985, also graded sahih) At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives.  As the hadith indicates, he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings in a Muslim marriage were deemed necessary at times to keep the woman in her place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."  The authenticity of this chain of narration is characterized as daif (weak), however, a similar verse from Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:1986 is said to be hasan (sufficient).

Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks he is getting a virgin for a wife, then finds out that she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she delivers the child.  (Despite multiple chains of narration, this hadith is graded as daif).

Sahih Bukhari (82:828) -  Though not the beating of a wife, Aisha narrates how her father, the first "rightly guided caliph" hit her violently as a form of rebuke when she was in bed:  "Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, 'You have detained the people because of your necklace'. But I remained motionless as if I was dead... although that hit was very painful"

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Marocc said:

 

Just pointing out the problem with placing the Bible against the Quran as the supposedly better one.

We actually weren't talking about that.  But I get it - this is how apologists for Islam operate - change the subject to Christians.

The actual verse is right there for Muslims - how to beat your wife, when to beat your wife, permission to beat your wife.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Goddess said:

We actually weren't talking about that.  But I get it - this is how apologists for Islam operate - change the subject to Christians.

Your brought up the scirupture of Christians and the Jews even though last time we talked about it you ran away as soon as I asked for poof.

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The actual verse is right there for Muslims - how to beat your wife, when to beat your wife, permission to beat your wife.

And here still I am waiting for proof that you are better at understanding both the Qur'an and Arabic than professionals and scholars are.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

In an alternate bill to the Punjab’s controversial Protection of Women against Violence Act (PPWA) 2015, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), that advises the government on the compatibility of laws with Islam, has proposed that husbands should be allowed to ‘lightly’ beat the defying wives.

 

In its model bill, the council has recommended that a husband should be allowed to ‘lightly’ beat his wife if she defies his orders. A woman also has the right to approach the court if husband crosses limit in his demands.

 

http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/338423-CII-recommends-light-beating-for-wife-if-she-def

Link to post
Share on other sites

But since its passage in the Punjab assembly, many clerics and religious leaders have denounced the new law as being in conflict with the Muslim holy book, the Quran, as well as Pakistan’s constitution.

 

Not that I have love for any of the religions. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/01/25/ten-biblical-teachings-women-love-to-hate

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."  The authenticity of this chain of narration is characterized as daif (weak), however, a similar verse from Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:1986 is said to be hasan (sufficient).

The hadith is weak and even as that it doesn't mean a man has the right to beat his wife it means he should not be made to say anything bad about his wife.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Marocc said:

The hadith is weak and even as that it doesn't mean a man has the right to beat his wife it means he should not be made to say anything bad about his wife.

So you DO interpret for yourself. 

Nearly everything I've read says that Islamic scholars agree that Muslim men have permission to beat their wives.  There are a few who mollify or justify or make excuses as you do, but wife-beating in Islam is permitted and approved.

When people reported that Omar was beating his wife, the admonition was given - "No man should be be asked why he beat his wife."

 

https://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Quote

All of the scholars agree that a man is to beat a disobedient wife. He can use a stick or use his hand. He is not to break bones but he can beat her like a father beats a disobedient son.

Here's a whole article with lots of Muslim scholars who advocate wife-beating:

https://www.memri.org/reports/muslim-clerics-religious-rulings-regarding-wife-beating

i think it's really wonderful that all these scholars agree that Muslim men should NOT beat their wives about the face.  Such mercy.  :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Marocc said:

you are free to provide a credible source regarding it – such as tafser or professionally analyzed words and expressions

Is this really the Tafsir you count as a "credible source"?

 

Quote

A traditional Islamic saying is that, "A woman's heaven is beneath her husband's feet." One of the world's most respected Quran commentaries explains that, "Women are like cows, horses, and camels, for all are ridden." (Tafsir al-Qurtubi v. 17, p. 172)

 

He sounds lovely. :rolleyes:
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Goddess said:

A woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

I am unable to find this narration from the books of hadith. I can find it from sites such as religionofpeace, gellerreport and jihadwatch. If you are actually able to unearth such or similar from the books of hadith you are welcome to present it. What I found was a hadith that clearly describes the same incident even though in a wildly different manner:

Narrated 'Ikrima:  Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle ﷺ said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet ﷺ said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

https://muflihun.com/bukhari/72/715

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Goddess said:

Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Another Hadith narrated by Aisha reads:

Aisha (RA) reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, did not strike a servant or a woman, and he never struck anything with his hand. Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2328

The hadith you are referring to, even though incorrectly, is the following:

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah ﷺ? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger ﷺ to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.

https://muflihun.com/muslim/4/2127

The words strike and struck as used in the hadiths are different words in Arabic. The first one is that of striking, the second one is that of pushing or nudging.

Abu Dharr reported: I said, “O Messenger of Allah, will you not appoint me as a leader?” The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, struck my chest with his hand, then he said, “O Abu Dharr, you are weak and it is a position of public trust. Verily, on the Day of Resurrection it will only result in regret, except for one who takes it by right and fulfills its duties.

In another narration, the Prophet said, “I love for you what I love for myself. Do not command even two people, and do not manage the property of an orphan.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1825

https://abuaminaelias.com/dailyhadithonline/2012/08/04/imam-sultan-amanah-trust/

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

Announcements




  • Tell a friend

    Love Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...