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This is a lie.

You can actually often tell a hell of a lot about someone by what they're wearing. At 83, or whatever you are, you should know this already.

You are engaging in a similar defective argument people make defending Trump. You try deflect from the  issue of Muslim extremism by raising criticism of  Western states' foreign policies and/or human

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Is that you admitting you made it all up? It's funny since you don't admit interpretations of the Qur'an either if they come from actual scholars.

It's me telling you that I don't take orders from you. 

And also I dont' want to derail the thread by debating bible or koran verses that have nothing to do with the thread or responding to your accusations.

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44 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It's me telling you that I don't take orders from you. 

And also I dont' want to derail the thread by debating bible or koran verses that have nothing to do with the thread or responding to your accusations.

This actually gets us to something relating to the many times previously mentioned 'freedom'. One thing that sneakily enough limits an individual's 'freedom' significantly is pride. For instance, the compliments I might be fishing with my new hair cut and my bathing suit is something I don't need if I don't take pride in those things.

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31 minutes ago, Marocc said:

This actually gets us to something relating to the many times previously mentioned 'freedom'. One thing that sneakily enough limits an individual's 'freedom' significantly is pride. For instance, the compliments I might be fishing with my new hair cut and my bathing suit is something I don't need if I don't take pride in those things.

I grew up this way. My parents owned a boat - cabin cruiser. We spent all summer on the water, living in our bathing suits. All I was trying to prove is your religion is restricting. I guess you like it? 

i could not imagine growing up and living with a head / skin covering outfit every day and maybe being a little risque sometimes and wear a top with 3/4 sleeve :) If your happy living that way, great! Sorry. I guess you know what you know. There were no Hijabs or Burkas in my world then. 

Bill 21 should be law all across Canada. 

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16 hours ago, Marocc said:

This actually gets us to something relating to the many times previously mentioned 'freedom'. One thing that sneakily enough limits an individual's 'freedom' significantly is pride. For instance, the compliments I might be fishing with my new hair cut and my bathing suit is something I don't need if I don't take pride in those things.

Ok please stop threatening people on these threads. The idea of your new hair cut or in a bathing suit is a threat. Please stop.

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5 minutes ago, Rue said:

Ok please stop threatening people on these threads. The idea of your new hair cut or in a bathing suit is a threat. Please stop.

The idea is to show that Western freedoms are not freedoms at all - that the key to freedom is Islam's many rules and regulations for women.

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21 hours ago, dialamah said:

Women are at risk in this world for not dressing or behaving according to custom decreed by their culture.  In the West, this means that if a woman who doesn't "dress modestly" is raped, she was "asking for it".  Even dressed more modestly, is she's in the wrong place or happens to have had alcohol, well - she's to blame.  After all, men can't be expected to control their urges if they come upon a woman who is alone and/or helpless.  Even short of raping, if a woman dresses a certain way or behaves a certain way, she is slut shamed - regardless of her actual sexual behavior.  

You don't "get it" Goddess.  You seem to think that misogyny is a staple in the Islamic religion and among Muslims, and that in every other religion its merely incidental.  Culture creates misogyny, which is why Western women are still at risk of domestic and sexual violence and being blamed for that based on their dress and behavior, by conservative-minded people regardless of religion or no religion at all.

In the Islamic countries, non-Muslim women are also subject to the same misogynistic practices as Muslim women, from FGM to domestic and sexual abuse because its culture, not religion, that dictates it.  Religion is a convenient excuse - "God said, men enforce." 

And because its culture and not religion, when Muslim men and women grow up in Canada, they become less accepting of domestic and sexual violence against women, as per Western culture and by third or so generation, their attitudes are essentially indistinguishable from non-Muslim Canadians, which includes a range of more conservative to more progressive.

Your arguments make no basis other than to rationalize for why you think its acceptable for Muslim women to cover their faces and engage in practices of covering their faces as well as I suppose to defend the right of all fundamentalists to wear visibly religious statements when serving in public offices.

You steer clear of explaining how religious statements/appearances do not conflict with the need to remain neutral in public as a public representative. You steer clear of explaining what law can be consistent that allows a covering for Islamic believers but not KKK believers.

Your discussions invariably always discuss defending Islam as a religion which is not the issue, and the right of Muslims to unlimited expression in Canada because you feel other Canadians already have it which they do not.

No Canadian can sit in a public position without having to deal with issues of conflict of interest and the test for confict of interest is the appearance of not an actual one existing and again you won't touch that.

The fact that certain women chose to cover up and its not necessarily in the Koran as an edict or order does not make it better or worse. It still remains an issue if anyone wants to wear a specific type of clothing that makes them appear conflicted to being able to serve all people equally and please do not tell me I have to be confident in talking to someone fully face covered or wearing  a KKK hood or a Satan robe or for that matter all kinds of crosses, etc., just as in reverse if I want to wear all black, grow a beard and curly side locks, wear a specific hat I am making a statement. I may not intend that statement to be evil or unfair but certain people who do not share that faith will not feel because I wear what I do, I can be neutral to them. You would not be engaging in your rationalizations if the person triggering the anxiety was wearing a KKK hood or wearing Satanic outfits. Who you kidding with your tolerance. Its selective because you feel you have an agenda to defend Islam. You don't. You don't defend Islam you defend fundamentalist Islam. Progressive Muslims came to this country because government and religion are separated.

Please do not tell me that Islamic fundamentalists should work in any Canadian government. Their religion believes all non Muslims are not legally lequal to Muslims. Don't ask me to look away with such bigotry. Also please do not lecture me or anyone that violence or intolerance in Canada against woman has anything to do with what they wear. Give that line of reasoning a rest. Women get raped and abused because of far more complex reasons than what they wear and your rationalizations of fundamentalist Islamic appearance engage in a defective analysis that because some men are violent against women in Canada no one should label fundamentalist and for that matter mainstream Muslim as having conflicts with or social values in Canada towards gender equality-oh bull shit. All religions have issues with women and human bodies and how they should be expressed. Pretending Islam is not any worse than other religions in this respect is bullshit. Its an insult to all women let alone Muslim women who know better. As for Christians, I don't like some of them just like I don't like my fellow Jews or some Buddhists or Hindus or Siekhs. Is that evil? I don't like some people especially when they try impose views on me or to be tolerant of their intolerant views. You smell I will tell you you smell. Too much tolerance for the wrong things. I do not tolerate intolerant beliefs. Its not asking much to be neutral when representing the public.

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

The idea is to show that Western freedoms are not freedoms at all - that the key to freedom is Islam's many rules and regulations for women.

My sister also finds.it freeing to not have emphasis placed on dressing in ways that enhance her sexuality.  Why are you so offended by people who value different things than you?  

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14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My sister also finds.it freeing to not have emphasis placed on dressing in ways that enhance her sexuality. 

 

I've never felt I needed to dress provocatively.  I've never felt coerced by Western society to dress a certain way.  I've always been my own person in that regard.  If your sister struggles with that, then it has nothing to do with me.  It's her own neurosis.

 

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Why are you so offended by people who value different things than you?  

I'm not.  You are trying to equate my distaste for fundamentalist Islamic covering (which is normal) with some kind of nuerosis or preoccupation with dress like your sister and Islam  has.  I do not have that issue, not for myself and not for how others dress.  Unless it's fundamentalist or extremist.  Which they are also free to dress however they want, but  not when they are in a position of public authority and are expected to present a neutral appearance.

You and your sister are quite free to champion extremist fundamentalist Islamic dress.  There is nothing wrong with me for choosing NOT to champion it.

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

Your arguments make no basis other than to rationalize for why you think its acceptable for Muslim women to cover their faces and engage in practices of covering their faces as well as I suppose to defend the right of all fundamentalists to wear visibly religious statements when serving in public offices.

Yes.  Even if I don't care for niqabs, hijabs, men in beards and turbans, women in half-length skirts and bonnets, or people wearing the crucifix, it's not my business to.dictate how people can dress.  Its also not the governments business.  One of our Canadian values is allowing people to worship as they wish.  Those who want to limit that freedom are wrong.

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Please do not tell me that Islamic fundamentalists should work in any Canadian government.

That is your assumption based on nothing more than appearances.  My neighbor wears hijab and is in no way an "Islamic Fundamentalist", she doesn't care what others believe, if they are gay, if they live in sin, if they drink; she doesn't even believe dog noses are haram.  She is Shia, hubby is Sunni (or maybe the other way around, I don't remeber).  Both of them seem to me to be more open-minded, tolerant and accepting of differences than many of the commentators on this thread.  You cannot tell someone's internal belief based in what they are wearing.  At 63, you should know this already.

The rest of your post about the influence of religion on domestic violence I don't have time to respond to - have recently (last couple of days) come across studies that support some of what you say, but want to read up on it more before responding.

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29 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My sister also finds.it freeing to not have emphasis placed on dressing in ways that enhance her sexuality.

Your sister might find it 'freeing' to have no choice in the matter. Other people value freedom.

 

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5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

One of our Canadian values is allowing people to worship as they wish.  Those who want to limit that freedom are wrong.

You advocate for unlimited religious freedom for Islam - unlimited in the sense that to you - religious freedom to do whatever one wishes, with no concern for others - is THE most important freedom in Canada.  It is not.  It's you that is wrong.

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9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I've never felt I needed to dress provocatively.  I've never felt coerced by Western society to dress a certain way.  I've always been my own person in that regard.  

Of course you have, you just don't recognize it because it's part of your cultural conditioning, aka "brainwashing".  Unless you are telling us that the clothes you choose do not enhance your female form, that you don't wear makeup, show cleavage, wear high heels, have your hair colored or styled, shave regularly, or any number of other things Western women do on a daily basis to be "presentable", whether that's "slutty" or "classy".  Then I might believe you that you are "your own person" that way.

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7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

That is your assumption based on nothing more than appearances.  My neighbor wears hijab and is in no way an "Islamic Fundamentalist", she doesn't care what others believe, if they are gay, if they live in sin, if they drink; she doesn't even believe dog noses are haram.

Your neighbour is simply lying to you. That's allowed under Islam, to lie to infidels.

Your neighbour either believes in Islam or she doesn't. Since she wears a towel on her head I presume she believes in Islam. Islam, MAINSTREAM Islam says homosexuality is criminal and homosexuals must die.

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10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You cannot tell someone's internal belief based in what they are wearing.  At 63, you should know this already.

You can actually often tell a hell of a lot about someone by what they're wearing.

At 83, or whatever you are, you should know this already.

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Of course you have, you just don't recognize it because it's part of your cultural conditioning, aka "brainwashing".  Unless you are telling us that the clothes you choose do not enhance your female form, that you don't wear makeup, show cleavage, wear high heels, have your hair colored or styled, shave regularly, or any number of other things Western women do on a daily basis to be "presentable", whether that's "slutty" or "classy".  Then I might believe you that you are "your own person" that way.

Now you are equating a person's normal and natural desire to take care of their body and have some pride in their appearance as "brainwashing" and that I'm some kind of pathological monster.  But Islamic fundamentalist dress is championed by you as being a legitimate "choice".  You really are a warped piece of work.  You're perfect for ISIS.  You champion all the same things they do.

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12 minutes ago, Argus said:

Your neighbour is simply lying to you. That's allowed under Islam, to lie to infidels.

Funny how fundamentalist Islamic dress is "no indication" of what they believe, but someone in a KKK hood or a swastika t-shirt - she has no trouble judging.

Her standards for Islam and Muslims are non-existent.  She has none.  Everything they do should be allowed in the name of tolerance, while Western people should go along with it all.  And say nothing about barbaric practices.

Do you think she even realizes how closely her propaganda and goals matches that of ISIS?

 

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9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You advocate for unlimited religious freedom for Islam - unlimited in the sense that to you - religious freedom to do whatever one wishes, with no concern for others - is THE most important freedom in Canada.  It is not.  It's you that is wrong.

 

Freedom FROM religion is far more important than freedom of religion.

Islam is here to conquer...not participate in interfaith studies about how we're all equal.

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2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Of course you have, you just don't recognize it because it's part of your cultural conditioning, aka "brainwashing".  Unless you are telling us that the clothes you choose do not enhance your female form, that you don't wear makeup, show cleavage, wear high heels, have your hair colored or styled, shave regularly, or any number of other things Western women do on a daily basis to be "presentable", whether that's "slutty" or "classy".  Then I might believe you that you are "your own person" that way.

Really Dia? How many of the 'modern Muslim' ladies where make up now? Lots! My youngest daughter tells me the younger female Muslim generation is going to change. Many of them are starting with the make up, shaving, perfect eyebrows. Hope she is correct.

There is nothing wrong with dressing sexy. Depends where your going. I like being a girl and having so many options for clothing, hair, etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Teena said:

Really Dia? How many of the 'modern Muslim' ladies where make up now? Lots! My youngest daughter tells me the younger female Muslim generation is going to change. Many of them are starting with the make up, shaving, perfect eyebrows. Hope she is correct.

There is nothing wrong with dressing sexy. Depends where your going. I like being a girl and having so many options for clothing, hair, etc. 

She's trying to slut-shame Western women.  Don't fall for it.

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