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What do you hate most about conservatives?


What do you dislike most about conservative philosophy?  

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On 12/3/2019 at 8:10 PM, OftenWrong said:

On the other hand, today we see what unbridled liberal progress has done to us.

Like better lives, longer life spans, greater freedoms...

Unbridled conservatism would have left us stuck in the trees. Thankfully some fearless little liberal monkey decided to venture forth to explore the ground below.  Probably to get away from some screeching conservative overhead shitting himself over the audacity of progress.

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For one thing, the Conservative Opposition has claimed that the Trudeau Liberals were driving the country to ruin with their overspending. Enter COVID-19, and we learned that Canada is fiscally among the strongest of the G7 nations and is able to spend tens of billions to fight the disease and its economic fallout. So I call bullshit on the federal Conservatives and any Conservative in the future who drags out that tired old line.

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On 11/27/2019 at 3:38 AM, ProudConservative said:

 What is the deepest flaw in conservative philosophy?

There is no flaw in 'conservative philosophy'.  The flaw is in humans who take it to extremes.  The flaw is in politicians who lie.  The flaw is in a system where the point of 'opposition' is to knee-jerk "they're wrong".  The flaw lies with partisanship among humans; an extreme 'us vs them' mentality.   

As a society, we need both 'conservative' and 'progressive' voices adding to our political system and defining our society.  What we don't need is extreme partisans acting as if the other side is the enemy and must be eradicated, or claiming that the other side has 'has destroyed Canada'.  We live in one of the best countries in the world, and we got here through the efforts of both conservative and liberal governments.  

If I were to say there was a flaw, it would be our capitalistic system which relies on and even demands constant growth and increasing consumption, and this is something which both conservative and liberals support.   

 

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15 hours ago, Minnetonka said:

For one thing, the Conservative Opposition has claimed that the Trudeau Liberals were driving the country to ruin with their overspending. Enter COVID-19, and we learned that Canada is fiscally among the strongest of the G7 nations and is able to spend tens of billions to fight the disease and its economic fallout. So I call bullshit on the federal Conservatives and any Conservative in the future who drags out that tired old line.

What the Conservatives have said is that if you want government services then pay for them. Is that too complicated for the Left? Why do you hate your children so much you want to keep borrowing money that will damage their economic future?

Now short-term emergency spending for a once in a lifetime danger is something else again. But it's short term and not sustainable for long. I know the Left is already talking about just handing out thousands of dollars every month to everyone indefinitely, but anyone with any knowledge of economics or human nature knows that's moronic.

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9 hours ago, Argus said:

What the Conservatives have said is that if you want government services then pay for them. Is that too complicated for the Left?...

 

First, I'm not on the Left. And I didn't say anything about getting free handouts in perpetuity. What that spending demonstrates is that Canada was in a strong position fiscally to begin with, so the country was nowhere near being driven to ruin by Liberal policies. That's just a hackneyed Conservative talking point.

Please don't create a fallacy to suggest I hate my children. I want my kids to grow up in a more equitable society, and instead of borrowing money so they'll have to pay for it, I'm willing to pay more taxes now to make that happen. If that idea makes you boil over, can you explain why?

A Conservative friend of my wife's is already whining about the taxes she'll have to pay after all this government spending on the virus, as if she's receiving nothing in return from it, like, you know, a civil society in which to live. And get this--she's collecting the $2,000 a month CERB benefit after being laid off from her half-time job because of the virus. She didn't even need the job or the benefit. Her husband makes a shitload of money and she only took the job because she was bored, yet she has the utter gall to take the benefit and complain about taxes. Now that's a true blue Conservative.

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12 hours ago, Minnetonka said:

First, I'm not on the Left.

I don't understand why so many people on the Left protest that they're not.  Your expressed contempt for conservatism and fiscal responsibility shows you're certainly deep into Leftist territory.

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And I didn't say anything about getting free handouts in perpetuity. What that spending demonstrates is that Canada was in a strong position fiscally to begin with, so the country was nowhere near being driven to ruin by Liberal policies. That's just a hackneyed Conservative talking point.

So if I understand your position, there should be no protests against government borrowing and spending until we're already in deep economic difficulties? There should be no effort to prevent us from going down that path?

By the way, we were already in deep debt. Liberals lie about the level of our debt by only using the federal debt compared to other nations federal debt. But unlike almost all other nations, Canada pays for things like health care and education at the sub-national level. And our provinces are in deep, deep debt at 89% of GDP. And your children will grow and live under governments labouring with that weight of debt, which will require them to provide fewer services and demand higher taxes.

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Please don't create a fallacy to suggest I hate my children. I want my kids to grow up in a more equitable society,

Equitable, how?

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and instead of borrowing money so they'll have to pay for it, I'm willing to pay more taxes now to make that happen. If that idea makes you boil over, can you explain why?

Do you pay any taxes at the moment? I usually find those eager for more government spending and taxes don't actually have to pay for it. Even according to Trudeau 40% of Canadians pay no income tax. But when you add in the money many Canadian families are receiving for such things as the child benefit (non-taxable) less than half of Canadians actually contribute anything to the federal treasury to pay for all those programs. So what most of those who want to increase taxes are saying is they want more money taken away from OTHER people in order to pay for the programs they use.

I'm one of those other people. I pay substantial taxes every year and get precious little in return. Now, I'm more than willing to help pay for government programs which make sense, help make Canada a better place, and are efficiently run, but a lot of what government does fails to fall into those categories.

 

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9 hours ago, Argus said:
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I don't understand why so many people on the Left protest that they're not.  Your expressed contempt for conservatism and fiscal responsibility shows you're certainly deep into Leftist territory.

There are policies on both the left and right that I agree with, and both have policies I don't like. That doesn't put me on one side to the exclusion of the other. This thread asks what I don't like about Conservatives so that's what I'm posting. If it was about the Left, then I'd post about that, okay?

 

9 hours ago, Argus said:

 

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So if I understand your position, there should be no protests against government borrowing and spending until we're already in deep economic difficulties? There should be no effort to prevent us from going down that path?

By the way, we were already in deep debt. Liberals lie about the level of our debt by only using the federal debt compared to other nations federal debt. But unlike almost all other nations, Canada pays for things like health care and education at the sub-national level. And our provinces are in deep, deep debt at 89% of GDP. And your children will grow and live under governments labouring with that weight of debt, which will require them to provide fewer services and demand higher taxes.

 

Yet again, I said nothing of the sort. Knee-jerk complaints about taxes just because they're taxes is what I object to, like for instance, the way you blame provincial debt solely on "Leftist" overspending and ignore mismanagement by Conservative governments. For one example, Peter Lougheed's Heritage Fund in Alberta was something I could get behind because it's a fiscally responsible thing to do, but successive Conservative governments squandered it so that it's a mere shadow of what it could have been.

For another, Saskatchewan suffered ten years of tax cuts and giveaways to corporations, and to voters at election time, by the Grant Devine Conservatives in the 1980s. When it was over, the province was $15 billion in debt (one and a half million dollars for each man, woman, child, and baby), and 14 Conservatives were convicted of fraud, eight of whom went to prison, and one committed suicide. To get out of that Marianas Trench of debt, the succeeding NDP government raised taxes and cut services (gasp!), and in three years the budget was balanced, as it was for the next seven years. Eventually, it even cut taxes (double gasp!!), not from blind ideology but because the province could afford to. Now tell me which government was fiscally responsible. It has nothing to do with political affiliation.

 

9 hours ago, Argus said:
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Do you pay any taxes at the moment? I usually find those eager for more government spending and taxes don't actually have to pay for it. Even according to Trudeau 40% of Canadians pay no income tax. But when you add in the money many Canadian families are receiving for such things as the child benefit (non-taxable) less than half of Canadians actually contribute anything to the federal treasury to pay for all those programs. So what most of those who want to increase taxes are saying is they want more money taken away from OTHER people in order to pay for the programs they use.

I'm one of those other people. I pay substantial taxes every year and get precious little in return. Now, I'm more than willing to help pay for government programs which make sense, help make Canada a better place, and are efficiently run, but a lot of what government does fails to fall into those categories.

 

So law and order, a good education, and a solid health care infrastructure, to name just a few benefits of taxes, are precious little to get in return? You need to be a little more appreciative of what you were born into.

Whatever your bias tells you, don't apply it to me. I have no problem with my tax dollars being able to help out people who haven't had the same advantages I've had. In fact, I'd love to pay out a hundred thousand at tax time because that would mean I have five hundred thousand in the bank. I'm not greedy and selfish, and I appreciate what I get in return for the taxes I pay. They've been the best investment I've ever made

 

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1 hour ago, Minnetonka said:

There are policies on both the left and right that I agree with, and both have policies I don't like. That doesn't put me on one side to the exclusion of the other. This thread asks what I don't like about Conservatives so that's what I'm posting

If you don't like fiscal responsibility, don't like fiscal conservatism, then you certainly won't like social conservatism. So I really don't see what conservative policies you would like.

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Yet again, I said nothing of the sort. Knee-jerk complaints about taxes just because they're taxes is what I object to, like for instance, the way you blame provincial debt solely on "Leftist" overspending and ignore mismanagement by Conservative governments. For one example, Peter Lougheed's Heritage Fund in Alberta was something I could get behind because it's a fiscally responsible thing to do, but successive Conservative governments squandered it so that it's a mere shadow of what it could have been.

You might have a point had I blamed provincial debt on 'leftist' overspending. I didn't ascribe blame to it. As to Alberta's economic mismanagement, I have criticized it quite strongly. I'm sure you could do a search on this site and find that out fairly easily. But as I said, I didn't blame left or right for it. But if you want we could talk about the astounding incompetence of the Ontario Liberals in driving this province deep into debt in the midst of boom years.

So law and order, a good education, and a solid health care infrastructure, to name just a few benefits of taxes, are precious little to get in return? You need to be a little more appreciative of what you were born into.

What part of "Now, I'm more than willing to help pay for government programs which make sense, help make Canada a better place, and are efficiently run, but a lot of what government does fails to fall into those categories." made you think I didn't support law and order, education and health care?

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Whatever your bias tells you, don't apply it to me. I have no problem with my tax dollars being able to help out people who haven't had the same advantages I've had. In fact, I'd love to pay out a hundred thousand at tax time because that would mean I have five hundred thousand in the bank. I'm not greedy and selfish, and I appreciate what I get in return for the taxes I pay. They've been the best investment I've ever made

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. Instead you went into a knee jerk reaction I often see from the Left to anyone who even suggests that their taxes are too high or being misspent. So yeah, I suspect you're about as centrist as Jagmeet Singh.

 

Edited by Argus
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To repeat,  "fiscal responsibility" in the minds of Conservatives implies cutting taxes and reducing spending, period, which isn't automatically a good idea. To repeat my example, Grant Devine was thought to be fiscally responsible by cutting taxes and spending, and it drove Saskatchewan close to bankruptcy. The ensuing NDP government turned out to actually be much more fiscally responsible.

To also repeat, we're already hearing complaints from Conservatives about the taxes they'll have to pay for the spending on the pandemic as if they're getting nothing from it.  

If you want to comment on those points before going off on other tangents, I'm listening.

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33 minutes ago, Minnetonka said:

To repeat,  "fiscal responsibility" in the minds of Conservatives implies cutting taxes and reducing spending, period,

I've never supported cutting taxes. So maybe you should stop trying to read people's minds.

As for reducing spending, that depends on what. There are things I'd like to see more spending on, and others less.

33 minutes ago, Minnetonka said:

To also repeat, we're already hearing complaints from Conservatives about the taxes they'll have to pay for the spending on the pandemic as if they're getting nothing from it.  

Well, I can assure you I'm not getting anything from it. I haven' t really complained about the huge splurge of spending, though I wonder if it needed to be as generous as it has been. Did we really need to give $9billion to students? Anyway, given I'm already paying very high taxes I have to admit I'm wondering just what the hell the government is going to do to pay for all this. If it's just one year, well, we can deal, but if it lasts longer and I suspect huge deficits will last longer, it's going to require something to lower the deficit. Given the nature of this government it's unlikely spending cuts will be what they choose.

 

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If you're not a knee-jerk Conservative, or anything else for that matter, good for you. I only question it because of your remarks about Trudeau's spending (pre-crisis).

I'm not getting any cheques either from the government, but you and I both are getting a more stable society when we come out of this crisis. For me, that's well worth all the money that's being spent and I'm willing to pay for that in the future. Nothing comes free.

If Trudeau has no alternative but to cut costs as well, as he'll probably have to, I don't see why he wouldn't. He strikes me as being quite savvy economically. If you'll recall the first year of his leadership, he travelled the world signing or promoting trade deals. I got the impression that the economy was at the top of his agenda, and for good reason. If the economy is in the tank, there isn't much of anything else that can be done.

I saw a news clip tonight of a Western farmer ripping into Trudeau for the agriculture aid package that was announced today. "It's just a pittance. Trudeau ignores us in the West," he had the utter gall to say, as if no one in the West is getting CERB cheques, and no Western students are getting help, no businesses getting federal aid. Two months ago he was no doubt whining about Trudeau bankrupting the country and intruding on his life. Another empty-headed dupe of Conservative propaganda. There aren't enough f****** pejoratives to throw at that kind of blind ignorance.

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I think what I hate most about conservatism right now is when it isn't.

Gotta do something about the infiltrators and the hijackers. 

Personally I'd point a finger and squeal like Donald Sutherland in revenge of the Body Snatchers at Progressive Conservatives who put the accent on "Progressive," or what the Americans call "Rino."  

Donald Sutheraln pointing.gif

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On November 27, 2019 at 4:38 AM, ProudConservative said:

 winner-takes-all capitalism...

Is that an, oxy-moron?  In a free market society is not ever, possible, for capitalism to exist within a winner-take-all-scenario. Is it fairer to blame the MSM for that Perception you have? For example...Is it capitalism's fault, that the 'tv screen' is the single sole most influential element affecting the human psyche?

Survival of the fittest is not Capitalism, altho Survival of the fittest is all about business-improvement loans and business publicity ---which is what MSM hold the keys to in all of North America within every municipal/every Industry and every aspect of business. Perhaps if the MSM was fairer to the little guy/the small entrepreneur who's the true engine of the USA workforce; there would be never be any losers!  There would also be no media monopolies then either lol

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  • 1 month later...

Let’s reverse this so we can deal with a reasonable list: what do I like about conservatives? Well, at the group level, I like the Mormons I’ve met, not when they’re trying to convert me with zany tales from their book but really any other time. Two lovely girls knocked on our door a few years ago and offered to do chores for a meal or two. In one day, they cleaned out my utterly chaotic shed. It was a Mormon miracle. They’re wholesome, cheerful, friendly people - what’s not to like? 

At the ideological level, I like the following qualities that some conservatives believe in: frugality; restraint; scepticism about the perfectibility of mankind; industriousness; independence. I also agree that two parent families should be preserved as much as possible to raise children - preferably extended families, actually. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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