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Ukrainian Passenger Aircraft Crashes in Iran

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Why is a government that tries to cover up its screwups so unusual?  To their credit at least Iran realized it was hopeless and after 3 days came clean.  It took the US 8 years to do that when they blew an airliner out off the sky and they still awarded medals to the doofuses that fucked up.

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4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Why is a government that tries to cover up its screwups so unusual?  To their credit at least Iran realized it was hopeless and after 3 days came clean.  It took the US 8 years to do that when they blew an airliner out off the sky and they still awarded medals to the doofuses that fucked up.

That is true. But the US did finally pay compensation to the families of those Iranian passengers whose flight was shot down by the US in 1988. Can’t say the same about ayatollahs who have so far not acknowledged paying compensation for the Ukrainian plane shot down earlier this month.

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1 hour ago, kactus said:

That is true. But the US did finally pay compensation to the families of those Iranian passengers whose flight was shot down by the US in 1988. Can’t say the same about ayatollahs who have so far not acknowledged paying compensation for the Ukrainian plane shot down earlier this month.

Ok. Is there an international standard for compensating victims of collateral damage in warfare? Given how much there is it might be helpful to establish one. It would sure suck if anyone had to wait 8 years but...it is how governments usually roll so.

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34 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Ok. Is there an international standard for compensating victims of collateral damage in warfare? Given how much there is it might be helpful to establish one. It would sure suck if anyone had to wait 8 years but...it is how governments usually roll so.

Good question and I wouldn't know the answer. Both planes were shot at different times One by Americans one by Iranian government apparently by their own admittance. End results loss of many passenger lives mainly Iranians. US government did eventually pay 62 mil dollars for 248 lives. Was it worth it? Absolutely not to the point that it is non sensical to talk about this human tragedy with compensation. Trudeau paid tribute to the loss of lives and made allocation of compensating their families for the plane shot down earlier this month.  But the question is why are the mullahs in Iran not paying any compensation for this collateral damage in the warfare which clearly was their own fault by admittance? Money does not bring back the loved ones but it sure sucks when grieving the families have to put pieces together and get caught in between.... 

Edited by kactus

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13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Why is a government that tries to cover up its screwups so unusual?  To their credit at least Iran realized it was hopeless and after 3 days came clean.  It took the US 8 years to do that when they blew an airliner out off the sky and they still awarded medals to the doofuses that fucked up.

That is NOT true. The US admitted shooting down the plane by mistake immediately not 8 years after.

So in your view murdering 176 people in a plane is a screwup? They only admitted to it after overwhelming satellite and video evidence. May I also remind you they went after and arrested the Iran citizen who took the video and put it on social media. And they are refusing to send the black box overseas!!!! Why? It is a mass murder and when it is finally discovered that the regime shot down the plane ON PURPOSE so that to blame it on American attack, then it is a mass murder and Iran leaders must face international justice. The US attack which never came and screwed up their plan so you may call this latter case as screw up not a mass murder that this islamic regime keep committing (like targeting and shooting to death over 400 women and children and over a 1000 defenseless unarmed protesters last November and many similar massacres before daring back to 1978 (burning alive over 400 people in Cinema Rex at Abadan). How can anyone as a human being try to minimize violent crimes committed by this murderous regime?

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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42 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

That is NOT true. The US admitted shooting down the plane by mistake immediately not 8 years after.

So in your view murdering 176 people in a plane is a screwup? They only admitted to it after overwhelming satellite and video evidence. May I also remind you they went after and arrested the Iran citizen who took the video and put it on social media. And they are refusing to send the black box overseas!!!! Why? It is a mass murder and when it is finally discovered that the regime shot down the plane ON PURPOSE so that to blame it on American attack, then it is a mass murder and Iran leaders must face international justice. The US attack which never came and screwed up their plan so you may call this latter case as screw up not a mass murder that this islamic regime keep committing (like targeting and shooting to death over 400 women and children and over a 1000 defenseless unarmed protesters last November and many similar massacres before daring back to 1978 (burning alive over 400 people in Cinema Rex at Abadan). How can anyone as a human being try to minimize violent crimes committed by this murderous regime?

What Eyeball is referring to is that it took the US government 8 years under the Clinton administration In 2006 to apologise for wrongfully shooting down an Iranian passenger plane in 1988. George senior Bush back then said he would never apologise regardless of the facts available regarding the shooting. That’s a fact. It was under Clinton compensation was paid to those grieving families....

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Just now, kactus said:

What Eyeball is referring to is that it took the US government 8 years under the Clinton administration In 2006 to apologise for wrongfully shooting down an Iranian passenger plane in 1988. George senior Bush back then said he would never apologise regardless of the facts available regarding the shooting. That’s a fact. It was under Clinton compensation was paid to those grieving families....

A few corrections are warranted here with all due respect.

1 - eyeball comments quoted below is clearly about the admission of guilt not apology.

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

 To their credit at least Iran realized it was hopeless and after 3 days came clean.  It took the US 8 years to do that when they blew an airliner out off the sky.

2 - It was Reagan not Senior Bush and he apologized in 1988 a few days after the tragedy. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/07/06/reagan-apologized-to-iran-for-downing-of-jetliner/9523c6dc-a244-4b3b-90e9-054168d98c79/

3 - Why it is so difficult to see the very clear distinction? The US shot down a plane full of another country's citizens very likely by mistake as there was no gain for the US in that tragedy. BUT the Iran murderous islamic regime shot down a plane full of its OWN citizens and at this point in time I cannot prove that it was totally intentional because they refuse to hand over the black box or release communications that took place between the revolutionary thugs at the time. Why is that they did not close Iran's airspace as any country would do during the war or heighten tension?? Because it was part of their plan. Using their own citizens as human shield is only expected of regimes like islamic republic or Assad of Syria they deserve each other.

4 _Iranian citizens are being targeted by both evil sides and they are the only victims. On one hand Iran regime's thugs targeting their hearts and heads and kill hundreds of them or shoot down the plane full of Iranians and on the other the US president announces support for them but prevents them from entering the US.

 

 

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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4 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

A few corrections are warranted here with all due respect.

1 - eyeball comments quoted below is clearly about the admission of guilt not apology.

2 - It was Reagan not Senior Bush and he apologized in 1988 a few days after the tragedy. 

 

 

My bad. I meant Vice President Bush senior that subsequently took office from Reagan. Here's what he had said:

 

Quote

Vice President George H.W. Bush, who was running to succeed Ronald Reagan as president, said on the campaign trail, “I will never apologize for the United States—I don’t care what the facts are.”

 

Full article:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/07/the-vincennes-downing-of-iran-air-flight-655-the-united-states-tried-to-cover-up-its-own-destruction-of-a-passenger-plane.html

 

Quote

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/07/06/reagan-apologized-to-iran-for-downing-of-jetliner/9523c6dc-a244-4b3b-90e9-054168d98c79/

3 - Why it is so difficult to see the very clear distinction? The US shot down a plane full of another country's citizens very likely by mistake as there was no gain for the US in that tragedy. BUT the Iran murderous islamic regime shot down a plane full of its OWN citizens and at this point in time I cannot prove that it was totally intentional because they refuse to hand over the black box or release communications that took place between the revolutionary thugs at the time. Why is that they did not close Iran's airspace as any country would do during the war or heighten tension?? Because it was part of their plan. Using their own citizens as human shield is only expected of regimes like islamic republic or Assad of Syria they deserve each other.

 

 No one is disputing the recent event that occurred over the shooting of the Ukrainian airliner by the Iranian government. They have admitted to it. I think you should take out the element of comparing the two events and evaluate each on its own merits. 

7 weeks after the incident Pentagon issued a 53 pages report on the incident but never admitting that the shooting was a mistake ...

 

This is what the report said:

 

Quote

On Aug. 19, 1988, nearly seven weeks after the event, the Pentagon issued a 53-page report on the incident. Though the text didn’t say so directly, it found that nearly all the initial details about the shoot-down—the “facts” that senior officials cited to put all the blame on Iran Air’s pilot—were wrong. And yet the August report still concluded that the captain and all the other Vincennes officers acted properly.

For example, on July 3, at the first Pentagon press conference on the incident, Adm. William Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the Iranian plane had been flying at 9,000 feet and descending at a “high speed” of 450 knots, “headed directly” for the Vincennes. In fact, however, the Aug. 19 report—written by Rear Adm. William Fogarty of U.S. Central Command—concluded (from computer tapes found inside the ship’s combat information center) that the plane was “ascending through 12,000 feet” at the much slower speed of 380 knots. “At no time” did the Airbus “actually descend in altitude,” the report stated.

 

........And four years later in 12 the same admiral admits that it was a mistake....

 

Quote

Adm. Crowe admitted on ABC’s Nightline that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time it shot down the plane. Back in 1988, he and others had said that the ship was in international waters. It also came out that some other Navy officers had regarded Rogers as “aggressive” and found it strange that he was moving his Aegis cruiser into those waters to pursue Iranian patrol boats—overkill at best, asking for trouble in any case. The distractions of the chase, possibly combined with the fact that the Aegis radar-guided missile system was new at the time, may have led to his fatal misjudgment.

 

 

Quote

4 _Iranian citizens are being targeted by both evil sides and they are the only victims. On one hand Iran regime's thugs targeting their hearts and heads and kill hundreds of them or shoot down the plane full of Iranians and on the other the US president announces support for them but prevents them from entering the US.

Politics sucks.....I have already stated earlier Iranian people were the biggest losers in these two tragic events at almost quarter of a century apart. 1988 and 2020....

Forget about the regime. It is already established that many Iranians are fed up with the regime. It's not a rocket science given the size of disgruntled young population expressing their anger with the establishment. But if you for one second believe that the American government or any other government is the protege of Iranian population you are deeply mistaken....They may take a number of skilled immigrants from other countries including Iran but in no way interested to harm the Iranian regime as long as their interest is protected in the region. Events unfolding in 1953 and 1978 should make that clear that foreign intervention has never been good for the country....This is why change should come from within even if it means bloodshed....

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4 hours ago, kactus said:

Politics sucks.....I have already stated earlier Iranian people were the biggest losers in these two tragic events at almost quarter of a century apart. 1988 and 2020....

 

Indeed it does, as in Iran being the prime state actor suspected in the Beirut Marine Barracks truck bombing in 1983, killing 307 French & American troops and civilians.  The multinational force was in Lebanon on a UN peacekeeping mission during the civil war.

 

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17 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

That is NOT true. The US admitted shooting down the plane by mistake immediately not 8 years after.

So in your view murdering 176 people in a plane is a screwup? They only admitted to it after overwhelming satellite and video evidence. May I also remind you they went after and arrested the Iran citizen who took the video and put it on social media. And they are refusing to send the black box overseas!!!! Why? It is a mass murder and when it is finally discovered that the regime shot down the plane ON PURPOSE so that to blame it on American attack, then it is a mass murder and Iran leaders must face international justice. The US attack which never came and screwed up their plan so you may call this latter case as screw up not a mass murder that this islamic regime keep committing (like targeting and shooting to death over 400 women and children and over a 1000 defenseless unarmed protesters last November and many similar massacres before daring back to 1978 (burning alive over 400 people in Cinema Rex at Abadan). How can anyone as a human being try to minimize violent crimes committed by this murderous regime?

The US has never admitted legal liability. They said it was war, shit happens and then took 8 years to compensate anyone.

No one said Iran's government isn't also being a prick about this or shouldn't be held to account I'm just wondering why there's some apparent expectation they be held to a different standard than anyone else. You seem to think telling Iran's government to make it snappy is going to speed things up. Why, simply because it's atrocious? I suppose that would be a good enough standard for demanding governments behave better but it'll never work until it's universally applied and certainly not without a legal framework of international conventions and laws to hold everyone to account.

So long as any nation believes they can operate outside international standards and norms we'll be making them up as we go with little more than outrage and political expediency to guide us.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, kactus said:

 But if you for one second believe that the American government or any other government is the protege of Iranian population you are deeply mistaken....They may take a number of skilled immigrants from other countries including Iran but in no way interested to harm the Iranian regime as long as their interest is protected in the region. Events unfolding in 1953 and 1978 should make that clear that foreign intervention has never been good for the country....This is why change should come from within even if it means bloodshed....

I agree with you and it is a very sour fact I have to painfully swallow. The fact that Trump has indicated he is ready to negotiate with this brutal regime (and at the same time he calls them murderous so he is fully aware of atrocities this regime is committing against Iranian people) is evidence to this fact. As fr change from within it is already established that this regime is not reformable. Any real change would mean this islamic republic must go to the garbage bag of the history. However, the change may mean a lot of bloodshed at current state as we both agree this regime is bloodthirsty and prepares to murder the entire population for its survival. I am not sure the change will come at less cost or there will be less bloodshed than a full scale foreign invasion. So I cannot agree that foreign intervention would be more costly than a revolution.

My only hope is that if the sanctions continue and tightened and Europe Joins the US (for their own interests of course) and the regime runs out of money to pay its thugs and the economy dives further and faster then a general strike and massive uprising will follow and the regime security forces would refuse to open fire on the masses (their own brothers and sisters) to save a corrupt bankrupt unpopular regime and hence with little bloodshed a change may come. This is the scenario that the regime is very aware of and as why they react at the start of any protest and shut down the internet immediately to prevent it from fast gathering momentum. Again and again but all that is needed is ONE time success for the good over evil.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015

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5 hours ago, eyeball said:

So long as any nation believes they can operate outside international standards and norms we'll be making them up as we go with little more than outrage and political expediency to guide us.

 

Not the case with the USS VIncennes, as legal liability is already capped by international treaty (Montreal Convention 1999) with two-tier liability.   The U.S. readily admitted shooting down the airliner in 1988 by mistake.   Iraq did not fully address liability/claims for attacking the USS Stark in 1987 until 2011....Iran cheered the attack, of course. 

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18 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not the case with the USS VIncennes, as legal liability is already capped by international treaty (Montreal Convention 1999) with two-tier liability.   The U.S. readily admitted shooting down the airliner in 1988 by mistake.   Iraq did not fully address liability/claims for attacking the USS Stark in 1987 until 2011....Iran cheered the attack, of course. 

How about the USS Liberty incident? ;)

'But Sir, It’s an American Ship.' 'Never Mind, Hit Her!' When Israel Attacked USS Liberty

'The Americans have findings that show our pilots were aware the ship was American,' a newly published document by the State Archives says

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1 hour ago, marcus said:

How about the USS Liberty incident? ;)

'But Sir, It’s an American Ship.' 'Never Mind, Hit Her!' When Israel Attacked USS Liberty

'The Americans have findings that show our pilots were aware the ship was American,' a newly published document by the State Archives says

 

The USS Liberty was a spy ship...spying on both the Israelis and the Arabs.

The US and Israel weren't allied yet.

Try sending your spy ship into a hot conflict zone...do some spying...then get back to us with the results...providing you still have a ship.

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