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This is why you are a failed product of our democratic system of discussion.   You don't have the option to 'disagree' with facts.  You are the result of people having too much choice.  Your

I doubt that. There must be at least another hundred equally banal excuses for not giving a shit that you can choose from.  

One winter in one region no matter how cold or warm isn't going to tell you if climate change is happening or not. You have to look at longterm trends over many years.

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11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You missed "historical"s

Not sure what you mean.  He claimed two years ago U.S. had dumped twice as much CO2 as China.  The graph I posted shows the CO2 from fossil in 2018.  China's was almost double the U.S.  Right to Left claimed the reverse.

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10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

There was abundant flora and fauna diversity on earth at much higher CO2 concentration levels millions of years ago, rising and falling for many different reasons.

 

I believe during the Carboniferous Period, oxygen levels soared to like 35%...this made for a rather explosive atmosphere...literally. The end of the Permian and Early Triassic is a historical low-point for oxygen at about 12%. Too low for most life.

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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

A pie chart showing emissions per country by percentage, 2018

Right to Left,  This shows China's CO2 emissions are 28% of the global emissions, while the U.S. is 15%.  But the total fossil fuel emissions is still about a miniscule amount of the CO2 in the atmosphere.

You can post text and charts, but can't seem to figure out how to add links yet, so the rest of us can see if there's any sleight of hand? I have a hard time believing you just went to Union of Concerned Scientists for this, instead of taking some 2nd hand BS from one of the oil-funded climate change denial sites that are still denying connections between GHG additions and global warming. How do I know this is a chart of historic emissions to begin with, let alone how accurate it is?

First unaccounted flaw on your pie chart is that outsourcing of manufacturing, that incentivized US manufacturers to open factories in Mexico and the Far East, have been used primarily to produce products for US markets....up till now! So, if it's a US company's smokestacks...like Nike or Reebok, what difference does it make which country it's located in? We are all stuck sharing the same atmosphere...and that's why I am not a nationalist!

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6 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Should they be allowed to catch up, or is climate change real?

They will have no choice other than reign in carbon emissions. I haven't checked lately, but pictures from Chinese cities today indicate that the air is cleaner than it was 10 or 15 years ago, when big city air was toxic. 

Ten years ago, China alarmed western environmentalists when they announced a plan to build 1000 coal-fired generating stations. Those plans changed, or were drastically scaled back because of pollution and was premised on the assumption of having long term supplies of cheap coal from Australia. Now that the Aussies are back to being America's little brother, under Trump, they stopped Aussie imports and are now paying for more expensive coal, wheat and other essentials from other sources. 

 

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On 2/22/2021 at 4:14 PM, Cannucklehead said:

So basically the bible tells you that its own prophecy came to be exactly as it predicted, but gives no evidence to support its claims.  Good to know.  

 

BTW we are way off topic about climate change.  

I was waiting for some sort of rebuttal about the "golden cities" while allowing abject poverty thing....but didn't see it. The fact is that there are so many books of the Bible and so many authors that you can find or at least stretch verses to support every belief or objective! 

It would have been nice if Christian socialists, like the 'revolutionary theologians' and priests in South America prevailed. But, as things turned out, Nixon and Kissinger were making sure that the murderous military despots the CIA picked in South and Central America prevailed, and millions died under the Capitalist Death Toll ....the one Dinesh D'Souza and similar propagandists can't talk about!

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9 hours ago, blackbird said:

And what has that got to do with either AGW or me?  

Are you saying that someone has to be a materialist atheist like Dawkins to accept evidence we are having an adverse effect on the environment today?  Or conversely, bein a believa means denying that mere humans who chop down forests and build smokestacks can poison the environment?

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4 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

A pie chart showing emissions per country by percentage, 2018

Right to Left,  This shows China's CO2 emissions are 28% of the global emissions, while the U.S. is 15%.  But the total fossil fuel emissions is still about a miniscule amount of the CO2 in the atmosphere.

AND IT DOESN'T SHOW WHEN!!!!  But don't worry, I found it! 

The 20 countries that emitted the most carbon dioxide in 2018!!!

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

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49 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

And what has that got to do with either AGW or me?  

Are you saying that someone has to be a materialist atheist like Dawkins to accept evidence we are having an adverse effect on the environment today?  Or conversely, bein a believa means denying that mere humans who chop down forests and build smokestacks can poison the environment?

If you don't believe in God and the Bible, you are likely a climate change alarmist.  Lots of people afraid the sky is falling like little Greta.  Watch the video of the debate between the famous atheist Dawkins and John Lennox just to learn what the central issues are.  How one views the global warming debate is effected by how they view God and what the Bible teaches.  That is just a simple fact.  Some worship mother earth, some worship a false interpretation of science, and some worship the U.N. IPCC and whatever it says even though it is more of a political group than science.

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3 hours ago, Right To Left said:

They will have no choice other than reign in carbon emissions. I haven't checked lately, but pictures from Chinese cities today indicate that the air is cleaner than it was 10 or 15 years ago, when big city air was toxic. 

Ten years ago, China alarmed western environmentalists when they announced a plan to build 1000 coal-fired generating stations. Those plans changed, or were drastically scaled back because of pollution and was premised on the assumption of having long term supplies of cheap coal from Australia. Now that the Aussies are back to being America's little brother, under Trump, they stopped Aussie imports and are now paying for more expensive coal, wheat and other essentials from other sources. 

 

Nevertheless, their emissions are going to rise for another ten years.  And then thirty years after that they will reach net zero emissions. 

Hands up all those who believe that!

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6 hours ago, Right To Left said:

I was waiting for some sort of rebuttal about the "golden cities" while allowing abject poverty thing....but didn't see it. The fact is that there are so many books of the Bible and so many authors that you can find or at least stretch verses to support every belief or objective! 

It would have been nice if Christian socialists, like the 'revolutionary theologians' and priests in South America prevailed. But, as things turned out, Nixon and Kissinger were making sure that the murderous military despots the CIA picked in South and Central America prevailed, and millions died under the Capitalist Death Toll ....the one Dinesh D'Souza and similar propagandists can't talk about!

Don't forget the 100 million people that died at the hands of the atheists Marxist-Leninists behind the Russian revolution and the Chinese Communist revolution, not to mention the tens of thousands killed in the Cuban revolution.  Those who fought and resisted Communist revolutions were fighting for freedom, which is a legitimate thing to do.

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22 hours ago, blackbird said:

If you don't believe in God and the Bible, you are likely a climate change alarmist.  Lots of people afraid the sky is falling like little Greta.  Watch the video of the debate between the famous atheist Dawkins and John Lennox just to learn what the central issues are.  How one views the global warming debate is effected by how they view God and what the Bible teaches.  That is just a simple fact.  Some worship mother earth, some worship a false interpretation of science, and some worship the U.N. IPCC and whatever it says even though it is more of a political group than science.

Apparently, 'believin' in God means being the reverse: a climate change denier! Because when the effects are too great to deny, bringing an end to normal, predictable, seasonal weather changes, 'bible-believin christians' are the lieutenant Drebins of the world, declaring 'nothing to see here, everything's  normal while flames and explosions shoot up behind their backs!

Your demeaning "little Greta" reference, shows your 'christian values' are for show, and not any sign of character or virtues, since you spend your time marinating in rightwing vitriol. I'm not happy with the way Greta Thunberg's minor quest was turned into making her the masthead for the corporate shift from carbon fuels to building new, high tech "zero carbon" electricity sources. But, I am not going to disparage Greta Thunberg, who didn't start this with a desire for celebrity status that was thrust upon her by Gates, Klaus Schwab and the other bastards who gather at Davos every year to try to plot out how to keep their economic system functioning, and profiting from it for as long as possible! 

The original environmentalists from my generation (now marginalized as the 'Deep Green' movement) have long understood the same thing that indigenous pre-civilization people have intuitively understood all their lives: however we live and acquire food and essentials for life, our activities have to remain with the balance of life or we are charting a path to destruction! The difference is that primitives had to pay a more immediate and much higher price if they broke that balance and exceeded the limits of their local environment. But 'civilized' humans who work at their computers in concrete and glass jungles have even less awareness and respect for nature than the early Judeo-Christians, who became the first large philosophical movement to have the arrogance of thinking they were superior to nature, and created a god who sanctioned all of their wars and plunderings! So, we have no reference points in common, as we are not even speaking the same language! 

There is a war going on among the billionaire class who rule over us, because the new, subsidized, green tech billionaires have deflated the stock values of the oil billionaires. This war is being played out as the fight between the Republican and Democrat Parties in the US, and the Conservatives vs. Liberals here in Canada. The Euros don't have a convenient analog because they don't have homegrown oil industries. 

BUT, the takeaway for everyone else is, there is nothing in this debate that has or will do anything to stave off environmental calamity and extinction! We will likely be pushed over the precipice in the coming decades, because the billionaires who rule over us and fund private and public mass media, are psychopath/narcissists who have no interest or concern for longterm goals and objectives. Everything for our ruling classes is all about wealth and prestige in the here and now/ not about what happens to future generations or all of the wildlife that is fast disappearing today!

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17 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

....BUT, the takeaway for everyone else is, there is nothing in this debate that has or will do anything to stave off environmental calamity and extinction! We will likely be pushed over the precipice in the coming decades, because the billionaires who rule over us and fund private and public mass media, are psychopath/narcissists who have no interest or concern for longterm goals and objectives.

 

Quite to the contrary, there will be no mass "extinction" and the very same economic forces that scare all the alarmists into spouting such hyperbole will be brought to bear on "climate change".   Green is for the money...not alarmists.

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38 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Apparently, 'believin' in God means being the reverse: a climate change denier! Because when the effects are too great to deny, bringing an end to normal, predictable, seasonal weather changes, 'bible-believin christians' are the lieutenant Drebins of the world, declaring 'nothing to see here, everything's  normal while flames and explosions shoot up behind their backs!

Your demeaning "little Greta" reference, shows your 'christian values' are for show, and not any sign of character or virtues, since you spend your time marinating in rightwing vitriol. I'm not happy with the way Greta Thunberg's minor quest was turned into making her the masthead for the corporate shift from carbon fuels to building new, high tech "zero carbon" electricity sources. But, I am not going to disparage Greta Thunberg, who didn't start this with a desire for celebrity status that was thrust upon her by Gates, Klaus Schwab and the other bastards who gather at Davos every year to try to plot out how to keep their economic system functioning, and profiting from it for as long as possible! 

The original environmentalists from my generation (now marginalized as the 'Deep Green' movement) have long understood the same thing that indigenous pre-civilization people have intuitively understood all their lives: however we live and acquire food and essentials for life, our activities have to remain with the balance of life or we are charting a path to destruction! The difference is that primitives had to pay a more immediate and much higher price if they broke that balance and exceeded the limits of their local environment. But 'civilized' humans who work at their computers in concrete and glass jungles have even less awareness and respect for nature than the early Judeo-Christians, who became the first large philosophical movement to have the arrogance of thinking they were superior to nature, and created a god who sanctioned all of their wars and plunderings! So, we have no reference points in common, as we are not even speaking the same language! 

There is a war going on among the billionaire class who rule over us, because the new, subsidized, green tech billionaires have deflated the stock values of the oil billionaires. This war is being played out as the fight between the Republican and Democrat Parties in the US, and the Conservatives vs. Liberals here in Canada. The Euros don't have a convenient analog because they don't have homegrown oil industries. 

BUT, the takeaway for everyone else is, there is nothing in this debate that has or will do anything to stave off environmental calamity and extinction! We will likely be pushed over the precipice in the coming decades, because the billionaires who rule over us and fund private and public mass media, are psychopath/narcissists who have no interest or concern for longterm goals and objectives. Everything for our ruling classes is all about wealth and prestige in the here and now/ not about what happens to future generations or all of the wildlife that is fast disappearing today!

Greta should be in school, not being a tool for the environmental radicals or the UN.  She had been assessed as having some mental issues, such as obsessive compulsive disorder by a psychiatrist in Germany.

If you want to believe in a global warming calamity, that's your choice.   I don't believe in it.  I prefer to believe in God who created us and trust he has the climate under control.  Another fact pointing to God is the existence of good and evil in the world.  If there were no God, there would be no accountability for all the good and evil going on in the world.  That wouldn't make sense.  There has to be some reckoning or accountability for what humans are doing in the world.  The Bible teaches us there will be judgment.

 That doesn't mean climate doesn't change.  It does.  But I doubt man is causing it.  Better to adapt to climate change than to try to stop it.  We can't stop it any more than we can stop the earth from revolving. 

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Quite to the contrary, there will be no mass "extinction" and the very same economic forces that scare all the alarmists into spouting such hyperbole will be brought to bear on "climate change".   Green is for the money...not alarmists.

No mass extinction because you say so? Based on what? It hasn't happened before in your lifetime?

Actually, we are already in a mass extinction- the sixth! Here are the first five of the Paleozoic Period. ..biologists have a hard time calculating the rise and fall of biological diversity prior to 500 million years ago, when multicellular, complex life forms started rising. Though it's widely accepted that Planet Earth's rough transition from anaerobic life to an oxygenated atmosphere that caused great cooling periods would have been a mass casualty even for anaerobic bacteria that live on underground and deep in the ocean...except when the kinds of extinction events we are concerned with, start to happen!

"In fact, some studies show that the interacting conditions experienced today, such as accelerated climate change, changing atmospheric composition caused by human industry, and abnormal ecological stresses arising from human consumption of resources, define a perfect storm for extinctions. All these conditions together indicate that a sixth mass extinction is already well under way."

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09678

 

It will last be noticed by isolated, cocooned people living in artificial environments, and eating artificial foods! 

The Sixth Great Extinction started first among large predators (on land and in oceans) who accumulate the highest levels of toxic metals and minerals in their bodies. 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Greta should be in school, not being a tool for the environmental radicals or the UN.  She had been assessed as having some mental issues, such as obsessive compulsive disorder by a psychiatrist in Germany.

If you want to believe in a global warming calamity, that's your choice.   I don't believe in it.  I prefer to believe in God who created us and trust he has the climate under control.  Another fact pointing to God is the existence of good and evil in the world.  If there were no God, there would be no accountability for all the good and evil going on in the world.  That wouldn't make sense.  There has to be some reckoning or accountability for what humans are doing in the world.  The Bible teaches us there will be judgment.

 That doesn't mean climate doesn't change.  It does.  But I doubt man is causing it.  Better to adapt to climate change than to try to stop it.  We can't stop it any more than we can stop the earth from revolving. 

I believe in reality! And I will take real evidence of what's headed our way into consideration of future plans. I just wish it was easier to sift through the bullshit dumped all over the place by competing idealogues fighting to impress or convince everyone else.  

The truth is out there...it just takes a little background study and sifting and sorting of today's news to find it.

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18 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

No mass extinction because you say so? Based on what? It hasn't happened before in your lifetime?

Actually, we are already in a mass extinction- the sixth!

 

Great...you are admitting that extinction events are natural occurrences, regardless of "anthropogenic warming".   But...alarmists have to alarm.

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Great...you are admitting that extinction events are natural occurrences, regardless of "anthropogenic warming".   But...alarmists have to alarm.

And who is or was denying that mass extinctions are naturally occurring? The point that environmentalists have long tried to get across to the self-proclaimed civilized world is that there are no natural correlates for the present extinction!

Too the contrary, the sudden increase in atmospheric carbon and rising temperatures has come about at a time when many climatologists figured that the exact opposite - a long cooling trend to another ice age - would be underway, if we weren't kicking up too much carbon for natural negative carbon sequestration to reabsorb and return to the earth. 

If one of the continents had started splitting apart, or two continental plates collided together, then we would have a naturally sourced global warming event. Instead, it's just us, building smokestacks, millions of cars, chopping down millions of trees etc. that has knocked the carbon cycle out of whack! 

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3 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

And who is or was denying that mass extinctions are naturally occurring? The point that environmentalists have long tried to get across to the self-proclaimed civilized world is that there are no natural correlates for the present extinction!

 

No me...the context was your claim of pending extinction from "climate change".   Clearly this is just more alarmist rhetoric that actually undermines practical approaches to mitigation and adaptation, and has failed to date.

 

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If one of the continents had started splitting apart, or two continental plates collided together, then we would have a naturally sourced global warming event. Instead, it's just us, building smokestacks, millions of cars, chopping down millions of trees etc. that has knocked the carbon cycle out of whack! 

 

The carbon cycle will continue regardless of "anthropogenic warming".  

 

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Another reason climate change is coming at us whether we believe it's happening.....or not:

 The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation could be showing signs of slowed current circulation

Translated into English, this current, know to meteorologists as the AMOC. This Atlantic Ocean circulating current begins with warm water running up the coast of West Africa, where it is deflected due west and reaches max heat content in the Caribbean...which in turns into the Gulfstream current everyone is familiar with...especially people living in Western Europe. The AMOC moves up along the Atlantic Coast, and as it cools and loses heat content, it turns around somewhere off the coast of northern Norway and returns as a submerged ocean current underneath incoming warmer waters along Greenland and our side of the Atlantic on its way down along the coast of South America. Well, that's how it goes in a normal year at least!

AtlanticMeridionalOverturningCirculation

By latitude, you'll notice that England and the British Isles are at the same latitude as Labrador on our side of the Ocean. Big difference in weather though!

 

Published in the journal Nature Geoscience, a new study (behind paywall) examines evidence pointing to the AMOC’s slowdown due to anthropogenic climate change, or climate change caused by humans. 

Using long-term proxy data to substitute for a lack of information about the AMOC’s patterns before 2004, researchers look at surface temperature patterns that reflect changes in how the AMOC could be transporting heat across oceans. 

Some of the proxies included temperatures, marine productivity and ocean heat content. Select data to measure the heat of subsurface ocean temperatures were derived from coral samples, and marine productivity was recorded by looking at the marine sediment and methane sulfonic acid concentration in Greenland ice cores.

The results indicate that prior to the 19th century, AMOC weather patterns were “relatively stable.”

Declines in movements of the current are visible after the 19th century, with “a phase of particularly rapid decline” measured via proxy data beginning in the 1960s.

Scientists further saw a small recovery in the 1990s, but then saw the same decline occur in the first decade of the 2000s. 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/climate-change/540573-circulation-of-the-atlantic-ocean-falls-to

So, the rapid loss of ice in the Arctic has been slowing big ocean currents like the AMOC even faster than expected. Historically, when Atmospheric CO2 levels were around 300ppm for an extended period of time, there would be a slowdown in these ocean currents so much that the Gulfstream would stop flowing and Europe would go through a deep freeze and precipitate the next ice age. 

That's where we should have been already, thousands of years ago, but the minor carbon contributions of small human populations became too much for 'negative' carbon sequestration techniques to pull more carbon out of the atmosphere; so CO2 stayed at 300 for thousands of years....until the mid-19th century, when humans started pulling tons of carbon out of the ground and putting it back into the atmosphere. 

At first...when CO2 levels started rising above 300, the increases were at a slow rate, then in the 1960's, carbon levels started rising faster and faster until today - at 416ppm - hopefully this year's maximum draws down CO2 levels again till fall. Because, at 416, more heat will be trapped and held in by the atmosphere, while what's left of the cold may reek havoc every now and then, but as the years go by now, less and less ice up north will mean higher temperature spikes in the tropics and mid-latitudes, with fewer cold fronts to moderate temperatures. 

When all the arctic ice melts up north, there will be nothing left to relieve extreme heat waves in the northern hemisphere. We'll have alligators and crocs migrating and attempting to adapt to life in the Arctic Ocean again (PETM-55 million yrs ago) while all the people, plants and animals that can't migrate from extreme heat in the tropics (below 30 degrees latitude) will die from heat exhaustion, and the tropic oceans slowly turn into toxic deoxygenated swamps that can't support normal life any longer. 

How long will it take for really bad stuff to happen? Who knows....the decline in the AMOC is way ahead of any schedule predicted 30 to 50 years ago. But it doesn't matter exactly when if the change is inevitable now.

With all discussion and debate about environment and rising carbon levels restricted to arguments over the merits of so called 'green tech solutions' it would seem that our fate as a species is sealed in the coming decades!

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Mark-Twain-lie-quote.jpg

 

So, do you remember this one?

Quote
NBC News

WINTER STORM 2021
No, frozen wind turbines aren’t the main culprit for Texas’ power outages
Lost wind power was expected to be a fraction of winter generation. All sources — from natural gas, to nuclear, to coal, to solar — have struggled to generate power during the storm that has left millions of Texans in the dark.

[,,,]

It wasn't just NBC spreading it. It was everywhere in corporate and social media.

And it was a lie.

Anthony Watts shows you the facts.

“Wind was operating almost as well as expected”… A Texas-sized Energy Lie

This is often the MO of the news media of the corporate and state left. A story will break. They'll find somebody who will be willing to make a claim that will support a narrative they'd prefer to push. That story will lead the news for weeks. Later the facts will show the claim to be false but you'll never hear about that unless somebody like Anthony or me tells you. I have tons of examples if you'd like to hear them.

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29 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

A story will break. They'll find somebody who will be willing to make a claim that will support a narrative they'd prefer to push.  

Wait - didn't somebody show up on Tucker Carlson to say Texas' whacky green energy policies were at the root of things ?  That's the first story in this cycle I can remember.

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Wait - didn't somebody show up on Tucker Carlson to say Texas' whacky green energy policies were at the root of things ?  That's the first story in this cycle I can remember.

It was more than Tucker, more than Foxnews, it was all across rightwing oil-funded media that the power failures from the Texas blizzard were due to windmills and solar panels freezing up. Then we learned that most of the power stations were failing....NG, oil, coal-fired and even nuclear power plants were shut down or partially shut down due to the weather. And then there were the problems with Texas's own, deregulated electricity grid. The only Texans who still had the lights on were counties that were part of the national grid and not relying on libertarian, unregulated services. 

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43 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

we learned that most of the power stations were failing....NG, oil, coal-fired and even nuclear power plants were shut down or partially shut down due to the weather.

Only one of the two nuclear generators was down, and it was only for two days.

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