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Sagacious

The Education Cost Elephant

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We all knew that a demographic bubble was coming, yet money was never set aside to deal with aged Boomer cost burdens. As we inch closer to the point that the sick, old, retired fold outnumber the working, governments are trying to clamp down on costs knowing that Boomers are about to bankrupt our horribly inefficient health care system. Sadly, those same seniors tend to be the most vocal opposition to allowing immigration to fill our numbers and skills gaps.

Health and education are our two biggest line items and the Ford government who has already lowered provincial revenue is intent on extracting money from the latter. Too many governments tell any idiot that will listen that they can reduce revenue and find the savings by reducing "waste." Then far too many of us idiots swallow that BS. This government is now telling us that the education system is wasteful, classes could easily be larger, support workers are largely unnecessary and students can be cheaply educated online. I think even most "team blue" supporting conservatives know that this is BS. 

Online classes have a sky high drop/failure rate and for many years separate spaces for students with special needs, learning disorders and behaviour issues have been erased, meaning the average class is far different than the cleanly streamed populations of our youth. Pretending that adding more IEP ladden, anxiety ridden, behaviourly challenged, defiant, parentally neglected students into the same room is an acceptable idea is simply asinine. 

If this government really does want to lower costs in a responsible manner why is it avoiding the obvious and sensible solution of defunding and merging the separate school system. Can Ontario really afford to ignore a savings of $1.6 billion per year? This government is searching for quarters in the couch cushions while ignoring the bars of gold sitting in plain view. 

Edited by Sagacious

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The separate system outperforms the public on standardized tests, provides healthy competition for the public system to maintain high standards, and provides more options for parents in secondary where access is open.  The savings of merging the two systems simply doesn’t exist.  You would still need roughly the same number of schools, teachers, and superintendents.  Only the number of directors would be reduced.  

I also want to take issue with your non-inclusive stance towards special needs students.  The research clearly shows that special needs students progress better in the regular classroom than in a segregated environment, both socially and academically.  There is no academic loss to the “normal” students, but a big benefit to them in terms of learning compassion and how to accept and appreciate different kinds of people.  In fact we are all different kinds of learners.  The most effective teachers understand the importance of knowing the learner, differentiating instruction, and using universal design.  At the extreme end of special needs, a segregated, specialized program can help, but usually only for a chunk of the day (needs-severe).

 I do worry about messing with class sizes and reducing the number of educational assistants and other special services that support special needs and other students.  Canada has the best public education system in the English speaking world.  If governments like Ford’s screw it up to save a few bucks that they lost through other cuts, they will wear that mistake for decades to come.  

The Ford government has not cut spending, but it has managed to alienate the parents of autistic children and educators.  I’m fairly conservative, but some of these moves look downright incompetent.  If the economy and inflation are growing at just under or around 2%, refusing to raise wages above 1% a year just looks miserly, because it is.  Educators have families and expenses just like everyone else.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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Is this really about teachers wages, because from where I sit they look pretty decent. Or is this about the Ontario education system and how it is funded. I mean lets be fair, how large is the Ontario deficit ?  How does one mange that debt and give every dept. what they think they need. I kind of reminds me of the postal union around x-mas, and holding our x-mas mail hostage until they get what they want, only now it's the students being held hostage...

 

Average teachers wage in Ontario is 23.46   18 % higher than the national average...

https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/elementary-school-teacher-Salaries,-Ontario

Teachers wityh 4 years experience are making 50plus k a year, of course that does not include what they make on UI while on summer break....

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary/6e192be0/Toronto-ON

In the larger city centers wages are a little larger now climbing to 60 k a year, not counting UI

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary/6e192be0/Toronto-ON

take a look at salaries after 10 years experience, almost 90 k   

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/004c9fd6/Toronto-ON

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24 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Is this really about teachers wages, because from where I sit they look pretty decent. Or is this about the Ontario education system and how it is funded. I mean lets be fair, how large is the Ontario deficit ?  How does one mange that debt and give every dept. what they think they need. I kind of reminds me of the postal union around x-mas, and holding our x-mas mail hostage until they get what they want, only now it's the students being held hostage...

 

Average teachers wage in Ontario is 23.46   18 % higher than the national average...

https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/elementary-school-teacher-Salaries,-Ontario

Teachers wityh 4 years experience are making 50plus k a year, of course that does not include what they make on UI while on summer break....

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary/6e192be0/Toronto-ON

In the larger city centers wages are a little larger now climbing to 60 k a year, not counting UI

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Elementary_School_Teacher/Salary/6e192be0/Toronto-ON

take a look at salaries after 10 years experience, almost 90 k   

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/004c9fd6/Toronto-ON

$90 a year, one of the best pensions in the world, and 3 months vacation. It's still not enough. 

How can the teachers afford to be on stike half the year? Teachers spend more time complaining than teaching.

You don't see the nurses going on strike. The nurses do their job.

Public sympathy for teachers are at an all time low.

Edited by ProudConservative

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1 hour ago, ProudConservative said:

$90 a year, one of the best pensions in the world, and 3 months vacation. It's still not enough. 

How can the teachers afford to be on stike half the year? Teachers spend more time complaining than teaching.

You don't see the nurses going on strike. The nurses do their job.

Public sympathy for teachers are at an all time low.

Teachers have had 2-3 strike days in Ontario and the province hasn’t budged an inch in negotiations.  A 1% wage increase is well below the inflationary rate.  The reality is that the cost of living is high in Ontario.  Canada has a strong education system that I wouldn’t mess much with.  If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.  The teachers are still running all the extra-curricular activities.  They haven’t moved to work to rule.  Also, it’s two months vacation, though many teachers take professional development courses and they need time away from students to refresh.  I find generally that many of the people who are most critical of teachers would die in the classroom.  There’s no hiding in a cubicle.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Teachers have had 2-3 strike days in Ontario and the province hasn’t budged an inch in negotiations.  A 1% wage increase is well below the inflationary rate.  The reality is that the cost of living is high in Ontario.  Canada has a strong education system that I wouldn’t mess much with.  If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.  The teachers are still running all the extra-curricular activities.  They haven’t moved to work to rule.  Also, it’s two months vacation, though many teachers take professional development courses and they need time away from students to refresh.  I find generally that many of the people who are most critical of teachers would die in the classroom.  There’s no hiding in a cubicle.  

No what's happen is Doug Ford is being scapegoat for Kathleen Wynne's mistakes.

When I was in highschool average classes sized were 34... with Mike Harris. 

The teacher's only did a 2 week strike, and classes sized were slightly reduced.

Now teachers are flipping our that Doug Wants classes sizes at 28, instead of 22.

Do you realized how small 22 is in a class. When you are paying a teacher $90000, that's $4000 per student... in tax money going directly to the teacher. You're not even factoring in the cost to build and maintain high schools... They cost of supplies, the cost of insurance and overhead.

K to 12... is 13 years... Then you send them to subsidized university.  

In Total you have 19 years of education... Where the working class between 23 and 65... Just 42 years... has to put that on their backs.... and then support retirement and heath care for another 20 years... until death...

Then you have all the people on welfare, and the natives not working their entire life.... thanks to our rediculous treaties. Which our ancestoris signed... so legally i'm not required to give them my taxes. The people working for 42 years... must support that nonsense too.

The system is overloaded... The system can't continue to run off debt.

So Doug Ford compromised, as want's to reach a deal with 25 per class... It's still not good enough for the teachers, because they're status quo comes from Kathleen Wynne... Who debt be damned, thought teachers were entitled to a $90 000 a year paycheck.

Doug is just cleaning up the debt mess, and teachers... have to stop lying and making him look like a monster... When he's doing, what he needs to do, to keep Ontario's finances afloat.

 

Edited by ProudConservative
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The class sizes are averages.  Most classes from grades 7-12 are large, sometimes well over 30.  The primary cap of 20-1 brings the average down, but would you really want a grade one class to have 30 students or even 28 in it?  That’s a critical year in which students learn to read and write.  They also need better supervision for safety. It’s students’ introduction to a structured classroom.  You want to get it right and the formula has worked in terms of educational outcomes.  

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32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The class sizes are averages.  Most classes from grades 7-12 are large, sometimes well over 30.  The primary cap of 20-1 brings the average down, but would you really want a grade one class to have 30 students or even 28 in it?  That’s a critical year in which students learn to read and write.  They also need better supervision for safety. It’s students’ introduction to a structured classroom.  You want to get it right and the formula has worked in terms of educational outcomes.  

Education is far more generous... Than I was growing up... They use to place us in portable units with mold... When I was in grade 1.... I remember my grade one teaching ranting and raving about government cuts in grade one.... Saying we were getting short changed... I didn't understand it at the time.

The parents were threatening to sue the school board, because of the mold issue... It took them about 3 years to tear down the portable units, and expland the school.

Actually I remember having 42 in my class in grade 9..... then after the strike, they hired a new teacher, and I was transfered to a class with 34.... I think the class was the fewest people was around 28.... but most were over 30.

Things were different in the 90's. I remember minimum wage was frozen at $6.85, and then Kathleen Wynne sent the chart through the roof... as soon as she gained power.

When the convervatives got in... The just kepted the Minimum wage frozen at 6.85.... If you worked full time at McDonalds you would make $13700 a year... and you still have to pay taxes. People got along, I don't know why people seem to complain more these days.... When things are far better for the worker. Just like the debt, you can see the results of Kathleen Wynne's legacy.... I'm voting for Ford, because all long as Ford Stay's in power... minimum wage will be frozen at 14... Ontario business owners deserve better, and so do some of the grand children who can't find jobs.

What I see from the teachers, is a desire to produce money out of thin air... That's just not how economics works.

canada2.thumb.jpeg.14ff15b385e6cdd0c5e039db9c83ba97.jpeg

Edited by ProudConservative

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Hmmm.  Ontario's recent Liberal governments were more competent and better for Ontario than Ford's Conservatives: removal of coal generation, creation of Greenbelt around GTA, support of Crosstown subway line, Yonge-U line extension, and multiple LRT's in various cities, creation of Full Day Kindergarten, School to 18 (instead of age 16, substantially increasing Ontario's graduation rate)…  Yes there was the E-Health waste of money and the gas plant cancelation waste of money.  Under Ford we have no good additions to the province so far, yet his government is outspending the Liberals while pissing off a number of labour groups and the parents of autistic children.  Perhaps there will be some savings from shrinking Toronto's City Council, but it's come at a cost in terms of responsive government.  Ford is dismantling and cancelling, that's about it.  I've yet to see the upside.

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Interesting points Sagacious. In my personal opinion I think education costs soared because we chose in the late 60's to remove persons from medical institutions and decide instead to transfer and treat them in our education institutions causing the increase in expenses. That originated in the 60's civil rights era where "mental illness" was challenged as a concept and it was argued people were not mentally ill, society was based on the beliefs of  "experts" such as Thomas Szasz. This approach felt   mainstreaming persons with "autism", "physical" and "mental" limitations into the school system was the way to go. So the expenses soared as we now need teaching assistants, public funding of  specialized transport and other special education related expenses paid for because of these added needs. On top of that one must remember in Ontario in the Greater Toronto area, there are large segments of schools where the students do NOT speak English as children coming through the regular immigration process, refugee process, or illegally come into the elementary and secondary schools and do not have to speak English on entry to Canada. That mix presents special challenges and expenses.

So this idea we could and canuse public education systems as a catch 22 centralized institution of service for all these language and  non education related needs was and remains the cause of the soaring expenses.

As well now parents are used to this high standard of service and became dependent on it, suggesting it may have to be limited causes extreme reaction. Unions use that fear as a tool to justify building their education empire.

That is what Ford and any other politician is grappling with. Someone like Kathlyn Wynne was a symptom of the problem the current government and future governments of any ideology will now inherit. She was part of the generation of education empire builders who believed and still believe schools should be given an unlimited access to funding for an unlimited number of roles. This is a left over belief system from baby boomers of the 60's who were brought up to believe there were no limitations to anything whether it be potential, behaviour, benefits, costs, expenses, services. It was a generation of entitlement and indulgence and for many it prevails.

In the past  institutions did implement  cruel and inhumane treatment..., but those cruel and inhumane treatments have been disposed of. So the question we now must revisit is this -is it possible now, with the advances we have made with treatments, centralization of those treatments   in specialized institutions makes not just more financial sense but more clinical treatment sense. Until we tackle that issue  we are not getting at the true root and cause of the soaring expenses I would argue.

 

 

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I would agree that cuts to Health around mental health have offloaded costs into the education system to some extent.  In addition we have a much greater understanding of diagnoses like autism and cognitive delays.  Neuroscience is teaching us a lot about the human mind.  The DSM has expanded and there is more diagnosis.  There is also less stigmatization of special needs and mental health, which is a good thing, mainly due to inclusion, which has had many positive effects.  We are better able to support students with learning and behaviour challenges.  

Whereas we often used to give up on students who struggled with behaviour or academics, waiting until they dropped out or expelling them, we have far more options to help these students get diplomas and participate in the workplace, rather than relying on welfare or institutionalization in jails or psych wards.  We understand better how much of what we used to call misbehaviour is actually stress behaviour, a response to stressors at home, with peers, or biochemical/mental factors.  Graduation rates are way up.  

Our expectations of the education system have also increased. It has put a lot of pressure on educators.  Many young teachers spend years in supply jobs hoping for permanent openings.  Many teachers compete for challenging jobs requiring more expanded skill sets.  On top of an undergrad degree candidates must attend two years of teacher’s college.  It’s expensive and probably not enough to distinguish you today and an additional degree is needed.  Without a consistent permanent job at the end of it it’s hard to buy a home or start a family, so many good people stop bothering to apply.  

Teachers feel stretched trying to support the multiple needs in front of them while covering a rigorous and dense curriculum.  There are never enough teaching assistants or special services in boards.  Nevertheless, teachers aren’t asking for more support in the classroom, simply that no cuts take place.  There is also no reason that wages shouldn’t keep up with inflation in a period of growth.  

You are also very correct to call out the impact of immigration, as ESL needs in schools have skyrocketed, an additional cost to schools that Trudeau’s immigration policy has not picked up. 

Edited by Zeitgeist

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19 minutes ago, Rue said:

This is the web-site that matches up with Proud C's earlier post with a lot of info on the topic:

https://fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/expenditure-estimates-education-2019

Here are specifics on the special education and services component:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/funding/1819/special-education-grant-2018-2019-en.pdf

 

Very good to dig into the weeds on this, as it’s very complex.  The GSN amount per student doesn’t change much year to year.  The EPO’s come and go and some of them eventually become part of the GSN.  I liken it to foundation versus finish.  If you look at the line items under each of the two types of funds, you get a sense of how hard it can be to make cuts, especially when there’s a big push from voters for certain strategies.  These days it’s Math, wellness, diversity, experiential learning... I do think we always run a risk of getting too far outside core priorities such as literacy and numeracy when we start trying to solve every aspect of the person, yet if we don’t look at the whole person other problems can arise.  

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23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I do think we always run a risk of getting too far outside core priorities such as literacy and numeracy when we start trying to solve every aspect of the person, yet if we don’t look at the whole person other problems can arise

I think you hit the nail right on the head with this, the balance between making sure every child is equipped with the core priorities, while at the same time recognizing each childs potential difficulty, (whether they be academic or behavioral) in attaining the aforementioned goals.

I have a "sister" (we spent time in a foster home together) who is currently an EA (education assistant) in Ontario and because they don't have as strong of a union as teachers are often the first to suffer, when in fact having someone in the classroom that can deal specifically with problem children elevates many of the distractions that limits teachers from teaching those very core priorities

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5 hours ago, SkyHigh said:

I think you hit the nail right on the head with this, the balance between making sure every child is equipped with the core priorities, while at the same time recognizing each childs potential difficulty, (whether they be academic or behavioral) in attaining the aforementioned goals.

I have a "sister" (we spent time in a foster home together) who is currently an EA (education assistant) in Ontario and because they don't have as strong of a union as teachers are often the first to suffer, when in fact having someone in the classroom that can deal specifically with problem children elevates many of the distractions that limits teachers from teaching those very core priorities

Yes but those special needs students are at risk.  Have to support everyone.  Not easy.  

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13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but those special needs students are at risk.  Have to support everyone.  Not easy.  

Agreed, that was just an example. On the other side of the spectrum there are gifted students falling through the cracks for the same underlying issues.

I just thought your post was well said, and important enough to deserve to be expanded on. 

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18 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

Agreed, that was just an example. On the other side of the spectrum there are gifted students falling through the cracks for the same underlying issues.

I just thought your post was well said, and important enough to deserve to be expanded on. 

Thank you.  Good concerns on your end too.  This has been a pretty detailed and fair discussion of education funding challenges.  

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11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Thank you.  Good concerns on your end too.  This has been a pretty detailed and fair discussion of education funding challenges.  

Thank you. I agree this thread has been much more informative than most ive seen in my short time here. When it comes to somthing as important as education, we should, and must be able to evaluate it without resorting to partisanship, the three R's don't belong to any party.

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On 2/3/2020 at 7:23 PM, Sagacious said:

We all knew that a demographic bubble was coming, yet money was never set aside to deal with aged Boomer cost burdens. As we inch closer to the point that the sick, old, retired fold outnumber the working, governments are trying to clamp down on costs knowing that Boomers are about to bankrupt our horribly inefficient health care system. Sadly, those same seniors tend to be the most vocal opposition to allowing immigration to fill our numbers and skills gaps.

Health and education are our two biggest line items and the Ford government who has already lowered provincial revenue is intent on extracting money from the latter. Too many governments tell any idiot that will listen that they can reduce revenue and find the savings by reducing "waste." Then far too many of us idiots swallow that BS. This government is now telling us that the education system is wasteful, classes could easily be larger, support workers are largely unnecessary and students can be cheaply educated online. I think even most "team blue" supporting conservatives know that this is BS. 

Online classes have a sky high drop/failure rate and for many years separate spaces for students with special needs, learning disorders and behaviour issues have been erased, meaning the average class is far different than the cleanly streamed populations of our youth. Pretending that adding more IEP ladden, anxiety ridden, behaviourly challenged, defiant, parentally neglected students into the same room is an acceptable idea is simply asinine. 

If this government really does want to lower costs in a responsible manner why is it avoiding the obvious and sensible solution of defunding and merging the separate school system. Can Ontario really afford to ignore a savings of $1.6 billion per year? This government is searching for quarters in the couch cushions while ignoring the bars of gold sitting in plain view. 

Canada only needs to take in an amount of new immigrants that are needed to replace the amount that die every year. Canada does not need to take in a million new immigrants every year. as the new plans go. This bull chit that Canada needs all these immigrants is a downright lie. We are now supposed to accept another one million new immigrants every year because the UN says that we must thanks to dimwit Trudeau signing the UN migration pact. And the majority of those new immigrants will come from countries that have nothing in common with the British/European host Canadians. Canada's immigration policy of today is nothing more than a pile of horse manure. :unsure:

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I skimmed the replies and it seems most ignored the premise of this thread; which, is real cost savings. The Ford government, that pretends to be all about balancing the books but is actually spending more than its predecessor, has ignored the largest, simplest and most straightforward path to saving a whopping $1.6 Billion+ per year. Why focus on gutting student supports, mandating large class sizes and implementing mandatory eLearning courses that already have sky high failure rates when the combined savings is still nothing compared to axing the unfair and wasteful practice of running separate, publicly funded school systems? Ontario could still service every student wanting a public education without a downgrade in quality and damaging cuts and still save more than one and a half billion dollars annually.

With savings like that this lame duck government would have loads more cash to hire friends of Ford or dismantle clean energy projects that have already been paid for or prop up the necessities like horse racing facilities run by former finance ministers. Griping about an inept government aside, it just makes sense to eliminate and merge the separate systems.

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2 hours ago, Sagacious said:

I skimmed the replies and it seems most ignored the premise of this thread; which, is real cost savings. The Ford government, that pretends to be all about balancing the books but is actually spending more than its predecessor, has ignored the largest, simplest and most straightforward path to saving a whopping $1.6 Billion+ per year. Why focus on gutting student supports, mandating large class sizes and implementing mandatory eLearning courses that already have sky high failure rates when the combined savings is still nothing compared to axing the unfair and wasteful practice of running separate, publicly funded school systems? Ontario could still service every student wanting a public education without a downgrade in quality and damaging cuts and still save more than one and a half billion dollars annually.

With savings like that this lame duck government would have loads more cash to hire friends of Ford or dismantle clean energy projects that have already been paid for or prop up the necessities like horse racing facilities run by former finance ministers. Griping about an inept government aside, it just makes sense to eliminate and merge the separate systems.

While there are arguments for maintaining the two systems apart from the constitutional protections, the reality is that the savings from amalgamation would be minute.  You’d need the same number of teachers, principals, schools, and superintendents.  You would reduce the number of directors, a drop in the bucket.  Open access in high school means that all parents always have a choice of schools, public or separate, for their children to attend.  Some separate boards also have open access in elementary, which is fine.  The two systems compete for excellence, and we have the best publicly funded education system in the English speaking world.  I wouldn’t spoil that.  The politician who does would pay at the ballot box.

Edited by Zeitgeist

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There is one easy way to cut education costs to the tune of 100's of millions of dollars:  Scrap all international language weekend programs.  These are virtually free language programs for students (not English or French).  It's insane that Ontario provides free international language instruction outside of regular school hours.  What other country provides free instruction of non-official languages? 

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22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

While there are arguments for maintaining the two systems apart from the constitutional protections, the reality is that the savings from amalgamation would be minute.  You’d need the same number of teachers, principals, schools, and superintendents.  You would reduce the number of directors, a drop in the bucket.  Open access in high school means that all parents always have a choice of schools, public or separate, for their children to attend.  Some separate boards also have open access in elementary, which is fine.  The two systems compete for excellence, and we have the best publicly funded education system in the English speaking world.  I wouldn’t spoil that.  The politician who does would pay at the ballot box.

The potential savings has been studied multiple times and was calculated at $1.5 to $2+ billion annually. The systems don't compete for excellence. One merged system would require fewer buildings, fewer board offices, fewer board office employees, much less busing and transportation costs. Removal of the Catholic board would be easy and it has already been done in other provinces. Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan are the only three provinces left that publicly fund a Catholic board. 

Also, the United Nations Human Rights Committee determined that Canada was in violation of article 26 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, because Ontario's Ministry of Education discriminates against non-Catholics by continuing to publicly fund separate Catholic schools, but not those of any other religious groups.

Eliminating overlapping separate boards is an easy decision both ethically and financially. The $1.6 - $2 billion in savings would go a long way to helping the province balance the books without sacrificing the quality of education yet the Ford government didn't even consider it.

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1 hour ago, Sagacious said:

The potential savings has been studied multiple times and was calculated at $1.5 to $2+ billion annually. The systems don't compete for excellence. One merged system would require fewer buildings, fewer board offices, fewer board office employees, much less busing and transportation costs. Removal of the Catholic board would be easy and it has already been done in other provinces. Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan are the only three provinces left that publicly fund a Catholic board. 

Also, the United Nations Human Rights Committee determined that Canada was in violation of article 26 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, because Ontario's Ministry of Education discriminates against non-Catholics by continuing to publicly fund separate Catholic schools, but not those of any other religious groups.

Eliminating overlapping separate boards is an easy decision both ethically and financially. The $1.6 - $2 billion in savings would go a long way to helping the province balance the books without sacrificing the quality of education yet the Ford government didn't even consider it.

The two systems already share bussing and some buildings.  Those figures have no basis in reality.  Show the data.  Also, I wouldn’t invoke the UN as a standard.  The UN is highly disfunctional, heavily controlled by dictators, and makes many questionable resolutions that impose upon countries’ sovereignty, including Canada’s.  We have constitutional protections of the separate system.  Newfoundlanders regret giving up theirs.  The separate system outperforms the public and is a success story.  Try to dismantle it and you will see at least 30% of Ontarians vote down the party that proposes it in an election.  That’s a significant amount of votes.  Be careful about shedding all traditions.  What you get in its place might concern you.  Ontario almost got Sharia law and that constituency is growing.  

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18 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The two systems already share bussing and some buildings.  Those figures have no basis in reality.  Show the data.  Also, I wouldn’t invoke the UN as a standard.  The UN is highly disfunctional, heavily controlled by dictators, and makes many questionable resolutions that impose upon countries’ sovereignty, including Canada’s.  We have constitutional protections of the separate system.  Newfoundlanders regret giving up theirs.  The separate system outperforms the public and is a success story.  Try to dismantle it and you will see at least 30% of Ontarians vote down the party that proposes it in an election.  That’s a significant amount of votes.  Be careful about shedding all traditions.  What you get in its place might concern you.  Ontario almost got Sharia law and that constituency is growing.  

1) The constitutional protections you speak of are illusory and were easily removed by Quebec and Newfoundland.
2) Studies show that we would save big just by eliminating the Catholic board and merging students into one public system.
3) Polls also show that a majority of Ontario voters support the move.
4) It is unethical to publicly fund one separate board for one religion

As of right now Doug Ford is a lame duck Premiere in need of a miracle to be reelected in 2 years time. Maybe saving a billion plus without the ridiculous cuts that will harm education and student well-being is the chance he has to take. If you call following majority opinion, saving the billions already foretasted by multiple studies and not forcing harms on students a chance. The clown of a premiere could then even blame the bad ideas and squabble with teachers on Lecce, demote him and claim the common sense victory as his own. 

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