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Pipeline protestors need to be jailed


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On 2/13/2020 at 12:38 AM, Zeitgeist said:

This is major.  Trudeau better get on the job of leading, up to and including War Measures Act.  Let’s see if he can summon “Just watch me.”  If not, I worry for this country.  

The War Measures Act was repealed, it's no longer on the books.

Martial law doesn't actually empower the military to do more than the police anyways,  the military is still bound to follow the same laws and procedures the police are already using

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1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

The War Measures Act was repealed, it's no longer on the books.

Martial law doesn't actually empower the military to do more than the police anyways,  the military is still bound to follow the same laws and procedures the police are already using

Welcome back.  I actually only got called Eskimo commie once.

If martial law is necessary, declare it.  Rex has it with eloquence on this:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-climate-zealots-have-taken-canada-hostage-and-our-pm-is-missing-in-action

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24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Welcome back.  I actually only got called Eskimo commie once.

If martial law is necessary, declare it.  Rex has it with eloquence on this:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-climate-zealots-have-taken-canada-hostage-and-our-pm-is-missing-in-action

Again, martial law doesn't provide more force than is already available, the military only provides more boots on the ground, they don't bring more authority.

The military can't do more than the police could do now, Aid to the Civil Power is not war,  all the military does is provide force protection to the police in a high threat scenario.

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To wit, Canada is a police state, the police are the most powerful arm of government, the military is a comparatively weak agency with little authority on Canadian soil

So if the police won't do it,  don't expect the military to step up to do more than they.

Moreover, even in the event of the government doing something, the Mounties are actually the more aggressive troops, they would go further than the military would

All the military would do is set up a cordon, and then sit there to wait them out.  If you want to force the issue, you use the Mounties not the Army.

This model dates back to the Northwest Rebellion of 1885, the only war Canada has ever fought on its own behalf

The Northwest Mounted Police are the secret political police at the beck and call of the politicians

The Volunteer Militia Rifles are merely there to support the NWMP as the lead agency

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40 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If martial law is necessary, declare it.  Rex has it with eloquence on this:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-climate-zealots-have-taken-canada-hostage-and-our-pm-is-missing-in-action

 

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These are the anti-industry, anti-energy, anti-Alberta, save-the-worlders who have been harassing the country for years.

I guess that's what happens in the face of near zero action on climate change or any kind of reasonable efforts to make our economy even a little bit accountable in terms of its impact on the environment.

Martial law...that'll really get the intifada riled up. Mind you the lack of martial law will probably rile up the Western separatists so....grey clouds lead to silver linings.

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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

The War Measures Act was repealed, it's no longer on the books.

Martial law doesn't actually empower the military to do more than the police anyways,  the military is still bound to follow the same laws and procedures the police are already using

With today's Charter of Rights interestingly written by the same Trudeau who invoked the War Measures Act, for martial law to be invoked it would have to withstand a Charter Challege to court based on whether the martial law was warranted and so justified under S.1. You know how slow the SCC can be. It could take months. In the meantime what would happen? Would it hold until the review? Could someone ask for an old administrative writ procedure to prohibit until the ruling (prohibition, mandamus)? Who knows. I do know Prof. Hogg who wrote the charter with Trudeau told me they never intended it to be used as widely as the SCC has applied it. I think though as things stand, you are dead on based on the fact there is no more War Measures Act and nothing equivalent to it.

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As for this notion that Canada's contribution to reducing climate change by eschewing the construction of more fossil fuel infrastructure will be too small to matter, I recall someone pointing out recently that attitude never prevented us from getting involved in the fight against tyranny during WW's 1 and 2.

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2 minutes ago, Rue said:

With today's Charter of Rights interestingly written by the same Trudeau who invoked the War Measures Act, for martial law to be invoked it would have to withstand a Charter Challege to court based on whether the martial law was warranted and so justified under S.1. You know how slow the SCC can be. It could take months. In the meantime what would happen? Would it hold until the review? Could someone ask for an old administrative writ procedure to prohibit until the ruling (prohibition, mandamus)? Who knows. I do know Prof. Hogg who wrote the charter with Trudeau told me they never intended it to be used as widely as the SCC has applied it. I think though as things stand, you are dead on based on the fact there is no more War Measures Act and nothing equivalent to it.

With the repeal of ye olde British War Measures Act ( dating from the First World War, enacted on 22 August 1914 ) there is in fact no more provision for martial law under Canadian Law

The War Measures Act was replaced by the Emergency Measures Act, which is not martial, the military simply plays a supporting role, the CAF never takes charge under the EMA

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Also bear in mind that the CAF is bound at all times by international law and the laws of armed conflict

The central pillars of which are military necessity, proportionality and collateral mitigation.

This means that the military can only use military force against a military threat, so unless your protestors are heavily armed, there would be no mandate to use military force against them, so again, it isn't actually an escalation above police force to deploy the military in Aid to the Civil Power.

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Is this what it means to live in Trudeau’s post-national state: a police state without police and a PM out of the country in a time of crisis?  This feels like the prelude to something drastic.  Garneau sounded absolutely useless today.  Heads in the sand are easily buried.  

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Heard a Native activist today who says more or less, they do not recognize the Charter or our laws, their laws supercede them, we are on their land, they never ceded it, we are breaking their laws.  Don't know what the answer is to that, but I'm pretty sure it would get violent if we used force. 

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I personally think the idea of using military as police is not efficient anyways. I was forced to do it indirectly in Israel and I can tell you from my perspective no soldier wants to police civilians. They want nothing to do with it. I know soldiers spit on the face equally by both sides in the area they had to police. People  do not understand soldiers are trained to fight soldiers and having to go after terrorists dressed as civilians or even real citizens protesting is not something anyone wants to do as a soldier although I defer to soldiers on it. I did volunteer medic stuff so I never carried  a gun and only dug toilets or pulled nails out of barefeet or cleaned rat bites and stupid shit like that but I know the soldiers I knew hated it. They signed up to deal with other soldiers not arresting screaming pregnant women smuggling guns. But such is life. 

In this case, the police are in a no win situation. The politicians are hiding and without going into a long explanation no one wants to hear the laws are completely unclear as to a conflict between certain aboriginal rights to land and pipelines and so even tough what native peoples are doing blocking the trains is criminal, it is related to unclear laws and therefore political considerations that remain unresolved so Trudeau hides from them as he has since he got re-elected. You notice since re-election he no longer grabs the camera and has delegated anything controversial to his ministers especially that little munchkin lady and Deputy PM now. Garneau the Transport Minister has no directives you can tell in his vague answers. The bottom line is Indigenous Affairs not Garneau has to deal with this and they are afraid because the indigenous nations are split on this issue with some in favour and some against and then we have American natives who have come up to Canada and they believe under the Jay's Treaty anywhere in North America is their land and they have the right to protest.

It will have to be settled as millions of dollars in unrelated commerce are being impacted negatively by the rail block. I think politically arresting people might inflame a situation and make martyrs and make it worse so they are hoping for cooler heads and diplomacy at this point but it does not seem anyone with any true authority for the feds is doing anything. Calling it a provincial police matter is a bloody cop out if you excuse the expression and asking the military to force there way into the situation is not going to work.

Asking soldiers to engage in action againstthe people they take an oath to protect is not what they asked for. I defer to Dougie and Army on it. I do not mean to talk for them.

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48 minutes ago, eyeball said:

As for this notion that Canada's contribution to reducing climate change by eschewing the construction of more fossil fuel infrastructure will be too small to matter, I recall someone pointing out recently that attitude never prevented us from getting involved in the fight against tyranny during WW's 1 and 2.

 

WW1 was not a fight against tyranny...it was a battle of empires, and Canada fought on one side of imperialism (Great Britian), the very same imperialism that led to current events and protests in Canada.

 

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36 minutes ago, Rue said:

Asking soldiers to engage in action againstthe people they take an oath to protect is not what they asked for. I defer to Dougie and Army on it. I do not mean to talk for them.

 I would have no compunction about crushing Canadian leftists under the tracks of a Leopard 2 Alteration 6 Modernized Canadian Main Battle Tank.

That wouldn't be legal tho, that would have to be done extra-judicially : coup d'etat.

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Is this what it means to live in Trudeau’s post-national state: a police state without police and a PM out of the country in a time of crisis?  This feels like the prelude to something drastic.  Garneau sounded absolutely useless today.  Heads in the sand are easily buried.  

Eskimo Communist frozen gulag run by, for and solely to the benefit of the absurdly corrupt and incompetent yet thoroughly entrenched Laurentian Elites : let it burn.

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22 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Well that's just fine.  If no laws are being broken, none need to be enforced.  As long as we all agree that when they are, they should be.

Civil disobedience comes with a price.  Otherwise it would just be protest.

Protest by large numbers of people necessarily involves civil disobedience, breaking some laws  - walking in the street, thus blocking roadways - because there are too many people for sidewalks, and pedestrians don't like getting whacked (accidentally) with signs. 

During labour strikes, places of business are blocked, sometimes supply trucks/trains too. 

It can be a tough call, but police are generally reasonable if situations are peaceful. It doesn't seem that there are any issues at the Belleville site. In the picture that someone posted, you can see that the plow truck is actually at the barrier, where cars would normally be when a train is going by. And it's on the shoulder, not even blocking the road. (The car seems temporary, was not in other photos I've seen, on the news, etc.)

 

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I don't think the government is afraid of the Wet'suwhatevers, the NDPindians, but they are indeed afraid of the Mohawks

The Mohawks are not just the military hegemon for the Iroquois, they are the de facto military hegemon of all the Canindians.

The fact is that the CAF is simply not big enough to deal with even a low intensity insurrection on the Windsor to Quebec Corridor

There's not enough troops to secure that much ground, even if they mobilized the entire CAF to try to do it.

Just 50 Mohawks at Oka required an entire Brigade to deal with, and Canada only has three actually deployable Brigades in the entire army.

The Canadian military is a political token force Boutique Army configured to be plugged into the US military logistics tail

The CAF is neither scaled nor equipped to actually defend Canadian territory in a practical and/or tactical sense.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose ; all Canada had in 1885 was an armed constabulary and that's all Canada has now.

The large "Canadian" armies which fought the World Wars were not Canadian armies, those were British armies.

The War Against the Indians is the only war Canada has ever fought on its own behalf, but in the age of the AK-47 and asymmetrical warfare, the Indians are well beyond Canada's capacity to contain, even head to head in a gunfight, the Indians would win in the end, simply by spreading the contacts over such a wide area that the Canadian Army would quickly run out of troops to cover all the vulnerabilities and liabilities therein.   It would be the same situation as in Afghanistan ; "three rifle companies of Canadian troops trying to secure an area the size of New Brunswick"

Bear in mind that the Indians don't have to kill anybody to achieve their victory conditions, all they have to do is stop traffic, trying to stop them from doing that over such a wide area, would be the Keystone Cops incarnate.

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

WW1 was not a fight against tyranny...it was a battle of empires, and Canada fought on one side of imperialism (Great Britian), the very same imperialism that led to current events and protests in Canada.

Yeah well that's certainly not how Veteran's Affairs or recruitment posters put it.

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Most of all they say.

<i>Shall we Help to Crush Tyranny?</i>

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

WW1 was not a fight against tyranny...it was a battle of empires, and Canada fought on one side of imperialism (Great Britian), the very same imperialism that led to current events and protests in Canada.

 

Indeed, 60,000 Canadians killed to defend Belgium : a slave empire which liquidated 10 million Africans in the Congo.

The King of Belgium went straight to George V and requested it be done, and Ottawa served up its boys as lambs to the slaughter in defense of slavery.

The great fear of the British was that Canada would refuse, that Canada would withdraw its troops in the face of the unprecedented attrition

But they need not have feared, for Canada is the ultimate lick spittle crony,  culture is destiny.

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29 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Indeed, 60,000 Canadians killed to defend Belgium : a slave empire which liquidated 10 million Africans in the Congo.

 

Not that simple.  Belgium was a key battleground in a world war, not that WW1 had any great cause.  It didn’t.  WW2 did, and Canada played a significant role in both wars.  Liberating Holland from fascism isn’t nothing.  

I’d think the military could defeat an armed insurrection because they’ve got the gear, but to do so would have high political costs, and anything with small scattered sniper groups would be a drawn out mess.  

With regard to the Mohawks who fought so valiantly for the Crown, if the loyalty is real, what’s with the Mohawk flag raging at all these blockades?  Are the Mohawks divided on this supposed cause or is this the position of their leadership?   Which leadership?  The cause seems incoherent and every radical special interest is latching on.  

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not that simple.  Belgium was a key battleground in a world war, not that WW1 had any great cause.  It didn’t.  WW2 did, and Canada played a significant role in both wars.  Liberating Holland from fascism isn’t nothing.  

I’d think the military could defeat an armed insurrection because they’ve got the gear, but to do so would have high political costs, and anything with small scattered sniper groups would be a drawn out mess.  

With regard to the Mohawks who fought so valiantly for the Crown, if the loyalty is real, what’s with the Mohawk flag raging at all these blockades?  Are the Mohawks divided on this supposed cause or is this the position of their leadership?   Which leadership?  The cause seems incoherent and every radical special interest is latching on.  

Belgium was insignificant to the outcome of the war, the Germans already overran most of it, the Belgian King was desperate for some part of Belgium to be saved, so he went to George V to lobby him and then George V lobbied the government, so the British pointlessly slaughtered their troops to include the Canadians, to keep Flanders, a tiny corner of Belgium, from being officially overrun with the rest of the tiny slave state mass liquidating people in the so called Rubber Terror in the Congo.

You know how they chop people's arms off in Rwanda? Long Sleeve or Short Sleeve?  The Rwandans didn't invent that, the Belgians did, for slaves who tried to escape.  That's why the Hutu's did it to the Tutsi's, it was payback, because 'Tutsi' is really just a euphemism for those who collaborated with the Belgians.  Tutsi is not actually a tribe, it's just the more white looking blacks who the Belgians gave preferential treatment to as House Slaves.  The Tutsis in the Belgian Congo were the black overseers of the Hutu slaves, much like the black overseers in Dixieland.

As for the military kit, it doesn't help against the Indians, because again, you can't use military force against them, because they don't amount to a military threat in a legal sense, so all of the military firepower and technology is neutralized, since it all ends up being overkill which you can't employ against Canadians in Canada.

All the military could legally do, is Aid to the Civil Power, and that is just protecting the police while they do police work, the military is restricted as to employing the full spectrum of capabilities at its disposal, most of which would be kept in the rear, while the troops basically pulled guard duty.

To wit, you can't bomb them with the CF-18's, you can't launch a Harpoon missile at them, you can't run them over with the Main Battle Tanks, only the infantry can be used, and only in support of the cops.  Canada simply doesn't have anywhere near enough infantry and cops to secure the Windsor to Quebec Corridor, period end of story.

The Indians don't have to snipe at anybody, all they have to do is put things on the railway tracks at random places, and that grinds things to a halt. 

Edited by Dougie93
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3 hours ago, jacee said:

Protest by large numbers of people necessarily involves civil disobedience, breaking some laws  - walking in the street, thus blocking roadways - because there are too many people for sidewalks, and pedestrians don't like getting whacked (accidentally) with signs. 

During labour strikes, places of business are blocked, sometimes supply trucks/trains too. 

It can be a tough call, but police are generally reasonable if situations are peaceful. It doesn't seem that there are any issues at the Belleville site. In the picture that someone posted, you can see that the plow truck is actually at the barrier, where cars would normally be when a train is going by. And it's on the shoulder, not even blocking the road. (The car seems temporary, was not in other photos I've seen, on the news, etc.)

 

As long as one is prepared to pay the price for breaking the laws. One cannot indulge in civil disobedience and then complain if one is arrested, charged, convicted and jailed.  Figuratively speaking, of course.

 

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43 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

As long as one is prepared to pay the price for breaking the laws. One cannot indulge in civil disobedience and then complain if one is arrested, charged, convicted and jailed.  Figuratively speaking, of course.

 

What is the price for breaking the laws though?  At a certain point the police have to enforce or they lose credibility.  A government that tolerates sabotage of railways and ports is a failed government.  

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

What is the price for breaking the laws though?  At a certain point the police have to enforce or they lose credibility.  A government that tolerates sabotage of railways and ports is a failed government.  

Confederation is a failed state, escalating use of force will not change that, culture is destiny.

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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Confederation is a failed state, escalating use of force will not change that, culture is destiny.

I’d like to think that isn’t true. We have a thriving, peaceful society, a model in many ways.  I just don’t think people realize how fragile it is.  If serious social unrest happens because authorities couldn’t contain the sabotage of a fringe who literally want to “shut down Canada”, then yes, it’s the Weimar Republic waiting for someone to lay down the law. It’s all fun and games until people lose jobs or feel threatened in their communities.  Trudeau isn’t bringing order to the chaos. It’s very arguable that his government empowered this lawlessness.  

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