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Turks threaten to invade Europe

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30 minutes ago, Argus said:

Neither is his war in Syria, which is nothing more than an escalation of his war against the Kurds he started because he lost his parliamentary majority due to a Kurdish led party.

It’s different in that he is allied with some of the last standers in Idlib and doesn’t want even more refugees pouring across his border. On the issue of the Kurds, their desire for independence is a serious problem for the Turkish state. 

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59 minutes ago, Argus said:

which is nothing more than an escalation of his war against the Kurds

He probably also has an interest in what happens in the neighbouring country.

your perspectives seem awfully naive. The way you measure your situation and that of other people's is completely out of proportion.

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On 3/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Marocc said:

You previously said war. You see any disagreement as conflict. It's politics. Erdoğan is not my favorite but be is one of the least harmful Muslim politicians out there. He's also most likely blackmailed from many directions and the fact that the refugees just happen to be behind their border... One can't blame him for being a little... Stressed, irritated, angry, upset, etc. If he was actually powerful and evil, this would be a lot worse for everyone.

Politics? Its war. He is using his military.What do you think he is doing to Kurds, Libyans, Syrians, the journalists and politicians he arrested? What do you think his financing and training of terrorists is...that may be your version of  what politics is...but I call it engaging in violent conflict. Your perspective  seems very naive.

Edited by Rue

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31 minutes ago, Rue said:

but I call it engaging in violent conflict.

Which is still not the same as war. Compare it to real war.

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2 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Which is still not the same as war. Compare it to real war.

Real war? What makes a war real? You want to deny Turkey is at war in Syria, Libya, and against Kurds? How is that not real? The blood is real. The air attacks are real.

 

Edited by Rue

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2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It’s different in that he is allied with some of the last standers in Idlib and doesn’t want even more refugees pouring across his border. On the issue of the Kurds, their desire for independence is a serious problem for the Turkish state. 

The last standers include lots of Islamist fighters he is protecting. And Turkey had peace with the Kurds inside and outside Turkey until he re-started the war with them for personal political gain.

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11 minutes ago, Argus said:

The last standers include lots of Islamist fighters he is protecting. And Turkey had peace with the Kurds inside and outside Turkey until he re-started the war with them for personal political gain.

Assad and Putin are slaughtering these people at his border, deliberately targeting civilians. How do you think Putin would react if somebody was doing that on his doorstep in Georgia or Ukraine? I’m no fan of Erdoğan but he’s being boxed into a tight corner here. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

Turkey is at war in Syria

I already said they are at war in Syria .. Just not elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Argus said:

And Turkey had peace with the Kurds inside and outside Turkey

Umm... Really. Did the Kurds learn to read then? Get human rights? Jobs?

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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

I already said they are at war in Syria .. Just not elsewhere.

..and I already said they are also  at war with the Kurds, in Libya, and finance terrorist organizations that engage in armed violence.

 

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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Umm... Really. Did the Kurds learn to read then? Get human rights? Jobs?

Why do you think Kurds can not read>? Why do youthink Kurds can not understand what human rights are? Why do you  think Kurds do not work?

Tell me for a Muslim how is it you have such hate for other Muslims is that not another sin?

Edited by Rue

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18 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Assad and Putin are slaughtering these people at his border, deliberately targeting civilians. How do you think Putin would react if somebody was doing that on his doorstep in Georgia or Ukraine? I’m no fan of Erdoğan but he’s being boxed into a tight corner here. 

Actually he boxed himself in. The Kurds in Turkey are hated by him. He had a choice to let them live in peace but he attacked them because he wants to control the oil in Kurdish Iraq and he became paranoid Kurds in his own country were helping them keep Turkey from Kurdish Iraq.. So does Iran. This is why  he allied with Iran and Hezbollah but at the same time flips and flops when Hezbollah and Iran defend Assad. This is about control of oil and a very long inter-Muslim conflict between fundamentalist Sunni Muslims and fundamentalist Shiite Muslims with Erdogan financing certain Islamic Sunni extreme groups including ISIL. He Obama and Morsi the former leader of Egypt were supposed to use the Muslim Brotherhood to control the Middle East. Their plan failed. Egypt's military got rid of Morsi after Morsi started a civil war on Egyptian Coptic Christians and welcomed in Shiite terrorist groups on the Gaza strip border and in the Negev and a faction trying to control Hamas within Gaza. Erdogan tried to continue Muslim Brotherhood extremist financed terror cells in Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan, Chad, Dahomey, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen. All he managed to do is piss off Saudi Arabia in Yemen, the UAE and Jordan. Erdogan said he wants to replace all Arab monarchies and sees himself as resurrecting Turkey as the principal leader of Islam in the world including the Middle East. The fact is outside Turkey, Middle East Arabs loath Turkey as they did the Ottoman Empire because of the injustices of the Ottoman Empire.

Erdogan hates Armenians, Hasidic Jews,  Jews in general, Druze, Berbers, Greek Cypriots, Greeks, Israelis, Assyrian, Coptic and Maronite Christians, Berbers, Kurds, Druze, Shiite, Zoroastreans, Bahaiis, and in particular loaths Britain, France, Germany and Holland using leverage against them with Syrian refugees to try bully them within NATO and the EU. It hasn't worked well. He made a temporary alliance with Russia over the Kurds but still is at war with them on the ground in Iraq and Syria/ He flips and flops with Iran and Russia, sucking up to them over the Kurds, but fighting with them over Assad. Erdogan was one of the fsuppporters and principal financiers of Muslim Brotherhood Sunni extremist sects that he and Obama used to take down Ghaddafi before those same forces turned on Turkey and the US in Libya and in Iraq.

The Kurds repeatedly defeated Turkish incursions in Syria and Kurdish Iraq and this has infuriated Erdogan who sees Kurds as Hitler did Jews-as vermin...as inferiors he needs to wipe out. He has used gas on them already in Syria and Iraq.

 

Edited by Rue

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7 hours ago, Marocc said:

People aren't getting softer. They just whine more..

People whine more because there they don't have any other problems to solve.  When people were going through the great depression or WWII they certainly weren't complaining about microaggressions or anything of the sort, bigger fish to fry.

People are getting softer.  Also, people live with their parents longer than ever before, have babies at a much older age etc.  Adulthood is being delayed, and if you call an adult names they cry about it.  We have much smaller families now, which means less siblings to pick on you.  Add helicopter parenting, fears of giving babies nuts (causing the nut allergy epidemic) or not letting them play in dirt....All of these things make you less resilient.  What doesn't permanently harm you only makes you stronger.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

People whine more because there they don't have any other problems to solve

They have problems. They just don't want to deal with them. I doubt that's  new phenomenon. History implies it is not.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

When people were going through the great depression or WWII they certainly weren't complaining about microaggressions or anything of the sort, bigger fish to fry.

That's so naive — people don't change fundamentally just because there's war and hunger. The little problems are always there.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

People are getting softer

No. It won't become true by repeating it.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Also, people live with their parents longer than ever before

In many cultures the parents live with their children once the children grow up. They're not abandoned and sent to institutions like in the west where the "tough ones" leave home early in order to have their own home where to have casual sex, smoke weed and have company from other "tough ones" who don't give a shit about their parents either.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

have babies at a much older age

And that's softness because..you've had babies much too soon?

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Adulthood is being delayed,

That isn't true. People become adults the same way as before.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

if you call an adult names they cry about it. 

If you call people names, with what right do you call yourself an adult?

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We have much smaller families now, which means less siblings to pick on you.

That means....... Nothing.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

All of these things make you less resilient. 

For which you have evidence I'm guessing in yourself since you became such a good strong adult at such an early age after a tough childhood with people picking on you all the time?

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

Why do you think Kurds can not read>? Why do youthink Kurds can not understand what human rights are? Why do you  think Kurds do not work?

Because I know how many Kurds live in Turkey.

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

finance terrorist organizations that engage in armed violence.

If they don't engage in armed violence they don't really deserve to be called terrorist organisations.

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1 hour ago, Marocc said:

In many cultures the parents live with their children once the children grow up. They're not abandoned and sent to institutions like in the west where the "tough ones" leave home early in order to have their own home where to have casual sex, smoke weed and have company from other "tough ones" who don't give a shit about their parents either.

And that's softness because..you've had babies much too soon?

That isn't true. People become adults the same way as before.

A person who still lives with their parents and has never left, has their mother cook for them, do their laundry, do their groceries, is a dependent.  In other words, a child.  Why is age more relevant than the stage of human development?

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20 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

If you arrest them, then you've taken them in.  

They want to be arrested, that's what they do at the Canadian border, they walk up to the Mounties and surrender themselves for arrest

In this case, you are trying to keep them out, so you are already using force, in contravention of the UN charter.

If you then escalate to lethal force, that's a war crime, under both the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

Greece is the only country besides craphole Russia where you can travel by land from Asia (including the middle east) and Africa.  All of these refugees coming by land to Europe are going through Greece.  Not fair to them, they should have sovereignty over their own borders.  If I were Greek I'd tell the UN Convention on Refugees to suck it.  Refugees have the whole of  middle-east, Asia, and Africa to flee.  If they're fleeing for their lives they should be satisfied with any destination where they aren't dead.

I wouldn't let one fake refugee step foot over the US border, and if the UN has a problem with it bring it on.  None of them of refugees, literally zero, they're all fleeing deportation.  Fire shots at their feet and see how quickly they turn around.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Greece is the only country besides craphole Russia where you can travel by land from Asia (including the middle east) and Africa.  All of these refugees coming by land to Europe are going through Greece.  Not fair to them, they should have sovereignty over their own borders.  If I were Greek I'd tell the UN Convention on Refugees to suck it.  Refugees have the whole of  middle-east, Asia, and Africa to flee.  If they're fleeing for their lives they should be satisfied with any destination where they aren't dead.

I wouldn't let one fake refugee step foot over the US border, and if the UN has a problem with it bring it on.  None of them of refugees, literally zero, they're all fleeing deportation.  Fire shots at their feet and see how quickly they turn around.

If it's an unlawful order, the military can decline it, for example as a Canadian soldier I would have been bound by oath to HM to decline it.

There's no get out of jail free card in America neither, the Pentagon is going decline too.

Edited by Dougie93

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5 hours ago, Rue said:

Actually he is not. He boxed himself in....

I’m impressed by the sheer energy you put into these essays. Yes, Erdoğan ıs a loathsome, populist demagogue who brought out the worst in Turkey but he’s facing mass murderers across the border in Assad, Putin, and the Shia fighters of the Iranian mullahs. They are slaughtering civilians indiscriminately. That is the situation NOW. Should Erdoğan let Assad kill everyone he wants to in Idlib? The Kurds and Egypt are work for other days.

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Greece is the only country besides craphole Russia where you can travel by land from Asia (including the middle east) and Africa. 

Strictly speaking, I think Turkey fulfills that criterion rather than Greece, as long as travelling across a bridge is considered to be ‘by land’? 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland

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1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Strictly speaking, I think Turkey fulfills that criterion rather than Greece, as long as travelling across a bridge is considered to be ‘by land’? 

You're right.

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48 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You're right.

In Istanbul a few years ago, the siege of 1453 seemed like a recent catastrophe as we drove past Constantinople’s mighty walls and stood in the baffling enormity of Hagia Sophia. Something of the Greek, and Roman, spirit in this city endures. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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10 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’m impressed by the sheer energy you put into these essays. Yes, Erdoğan ıs a loathsome, populist demagogue who brought out the worst in Turkey but he’s facing mass murderers across the border in Assad, Putin, and the Shia fighters of the Iranian mullahs. They are slaughtering civilians indiscriminately. That is the situation NOW. Should Erdoğan let Assad kill everyone he wants to in Idlib? The Kurds and Egypt are work for other days.

Thank you for the complement considering I give you all kinds of debate and shit but always because I love debating as you do....nothing personal...I do of course concede to you and your point that  not only he but the world must be concerned about Assad.  Yes of course. I I do not disagree with your comments, do not get me wrong, I just find the guy loathsome which you fully understand. This is not one we debate like you said. I just like adding to the discussion and to be honest I have no idea who to trust in the Middle East or anywhere. The world political landscape is as clear as mud.

Edited by Rue

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13 hours ago, Marocc said:

If they don't engage in armed violence they don't really deserve to be called terrorist organisations.

Using the above definition what is the difference between a soldier and a terrorist?

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