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Panic, Ignorance, Shut Up Already

Charles Anthony

merged "Fear and the coronavirus 2" into this thread

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11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Pandora's box. They thought they could hold the tiger by the tail.

They weren't even thinking, it's just blind TDS, whatever they can find to hand to hurl at the Bad Orange Man they grab it in a fury and hurl it

In fairness, the bull market was an overinflated bubble of central bank induced pricing which was going to correct at some point

What was more shocking was how long it held out before reacting

it allowed for an orderly exit with plenty of time, even when Chinamen were dropping dead in the streets, killed by the Black Swan.

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14 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Aside from Mr. Trudeau's promises, what that article says is not very reassuring.

And most do not even qualify for EI under the current rules. Why is that? Because they have multiple part-time jobs, the only way most people in the lower income bracket can get by today. Hence, no coverage by employer or government. They likely have no reserves either. If you've made  lot of money in your life you might find this hard to relate to.

More suggestions here

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-businesses-workers-urgently-need-financial-help-from-ottawa-david/

"Mr. Dodge said the government was right to drop the waiting times for Employment Insurance and to make it more flexible but Ottawa needs to put together a temporary package for people in the gig economy and in the service industry who are self-employed and not able to collect EI benefits."

We'll see what Wednesday's announcement brings. 

Edited by jacee
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6 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I believe the left is far more strung out by the news due to the many recent media outrages they have been bombarded with. They now cannot tell fact from fiction.

 

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

The virus panic is a US propaganda initiative to attack China's economy.

Hmmmm...

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14 hours ago, Argus said:

So your statement that he had a pre-existing condition was mere presumption on your part, and not an actual fact. You stated it as a fact.

No it's not. It is fact. The virus can not make someone sick only an opportunistic bacteria piggybacking  on it will. A healthy person does not get such bacteria and then need 3 weeks assistance  without a pre-existing susceptibility to the bacteria. It is called common sense. Try some.

Edited by Rue

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15 hours ago, jacee said:

Oh stop diagnosing.

Post the proper information links.

 

I have why do you not read them.Next I have not diagnosed anything I have only presented cause and effect NOT diagnosis.

Explaining cause and effect phenomena is not diagnosis. 

Edited by Rue

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

No it's not. It is fact. The virus can not make someone sick only an opportunistic bacteria piggybacking  on it will. A healthy person does not get such bacteria and then need 3 weeks assistance  without a pre-existing susceptibility to the bacteria. It is called common sense. Try some.

I'm sorry, Doctor Rue, but without a citation from a legitimate source I'm afraid I don't believe you and your common sense.

Edited by Argus

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48 minutes ago, Argus said:

I'm sorry, Doctor Rue, but without a citation from a legitimate source I'm afraid I don't believe you and your common sense.

Nor should we pay attention.

@Rue you are out of line. 

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8 hours ago, Rue said:

I have why do you not read them.Next I have not diagnosed anything I have only presented cause and effect NOT diagnosis.

Explaining cause and effect phenomena is not diagnosis. 

It's conjecture, misinformation.

Stop it. 

Edited by jacee

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I have been watching the Coronavirus "Worldometer" for a few weeks now. It has several updates daily showing running totals from countries all over the world. Seems to be a good resource for data.

Live update:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

On this page from the same site, it shows a breakdown of the data by age:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Quote
AGE
DEATH RATE
confirmed cases
DEATH RATE
all cases
80+ years old
21.9%
14.8%
70-79 years old
 
8.0%
60-69 years old
 
3.6%
50-59 years old
 
1.3%
40-49 years old
 
0.4%
30-39 years old
 
0.2%
20-29 years old
 
0.2%
10-19 years old
 
0.2%
0-9 years old
 
no fatalities

*Death Rate = (number of deaths / number of cases) = probability of dying if infected by the virus (%). The percentages do not have to add up to 100%

I think it's a pretty good indication that the virus is more dangerous to the elderly. A person in the bracket 50-59 has a 1.3% chance of death, once they have contracted the virus. For the lower age groups, the numbers are very close to zero.

Edited by OftenWrong
too ham-fisted on the kb

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34 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I have been watching the Coronavirus "Worldometer" for a few weeks now. It has several updates daily showing running totals from countries all over the world. Seems to be a good resource for data.

Live update:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

On this page from the same site, it shows a breakdown of the data by age:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

I think it's a pretty good indication that the virus is more dangerous to the elderly. A person in the bracket 50-59 has a 1.3% chance of death, once they have contracted the virus. For the lower age groups, the numbers are very close to zero.

That's hopeful, but I'd feel better if it wasn't such old data, which means coming mainly from China or in the early stages elsewhere. And I'd like to know how many wind up in sufficient distress to need to be hospitalized. The only data I've seen on that says 13% in Canada.

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Argus the KNOWN cases get reported. This means many more have not been. If anything this means the fatality rate is lower than what it appears to be because of that. Deaths will show up healthy recoveries don't, they don't even get reported.

What we have been told if we want to listen is that the concern is for the elderly and immune compromised people not healthy or most people. Because its so hard to detect and report hospitals did not want to get swamped by older people or immune defficient people. The vast majority of people have never been endanger. This is about trying to prevent bottlenecks at hospitals. O.k. maybe had the virus been easier to detect the approach might have been different. Maybe its causing economic and psychological problems in the interim but this is from erring on the side of caution for the vulnerable.

Each day we know more and more. Each day it becomes more evident the key will probably be to simply wash hands, disinfect, not worry when you get the virus, but be educated enough to know how to avoid spreading it so that vulnerable people can count on us healthy people not to spread it to them by accident.

Children are not dying from it. Anti-virals and specific steroids mixed with them seem to be working.

Unfortunately for some of us we have pre-existing conditions that make any fungus or bacteria which is not a threat to a healthy person, potentially fatal to these vulnerable people. It has always been that way. As medicine advances, we keep people alive longer but death is part of life and there is a limit to trying to think we can be immprtal. That is what frightens people the feeling of potential mortality.

That fear is a spirtual problem not a medical one. Its not helped by fear values, values that teach us to fear death or life.

We need to take each day as if its the only day at one level. Our perspective is out of whack and this is just gonna slow the mad world down a bit. It offers a time for people to get a better perspective if they want it to, or they can hide and get all anxious and waste precious time on appreciating life, worrying about a movement of life or destiny that should be welcomed not feared.

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The government happy talk simply does not align with their level of panic.

They're saying it's nothing to worry about, while they are shutting the world down like we are on the brink of thermonuclear war.

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The Government of Canada just introduced $82 billion worth of funding to provide a raft of supports to workers, even those who don’t qualify for E. I.   There are also supports for students, homeless, and Indigenous.  Taxes don’t have to be filed until June 1. The banks are allowing deferred mortgage payments and there are supports for employers.  This all extends over 3-plus months and more support will be forthcoming.  $500 billion in credit is being made available to businesses. It’s a significant backstop.  There’s a 10% subsidy for businesses to pay workers   The Child Benefit is being increased by $300 per child   Significant.

If we can’t eradicate the virus, perhaps we can slow its spread and accept a modest economy that reduces group sizes and increases health hygiene.  It might be a smaller economy with less labour and activity.  We will do what we can to eliminate the virus, but life will carry on and at some point find a new normal with a certain amount of accepted risk and heightened vigilance for the vulnerable. Right now it’s about doing all we can to stop new cases and protect vulnerable people.  We will get through this.  

Edited by Zeitgeist

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If you had a bowl of M+Ms in front of you and you know that 2 in every 100 are poisoned would you still eat one?

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4 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

If you had a bowl of M+Ms in front of you and you know that 2 in every 100 are poisoned would you still eat one?

How hungry are you?

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7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 We will get through this.  

Even a thermonuclear war is not an extinction event, none the less, the unprecedented total shutdown of the economy is massively disproportionate to the government happy talk

To wit, if they are at DEFCON 2 ;  they're not going to tell the public, so as to not incite the breakdown of civil order.

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58 minutes ago, Rue said:

Argus the KNOWN cases get reported. This means many more have not been. If anything this means the fatality rate is lower than what it appears to be because of that. Deaths will show up healthy recoveries don't, they don't even get reported.

Yes.

Quote

What we have been told if we want to listen is that the concern is for the elderly and immune compromised people not healthy or most people.

I understand what you are trying to say. The problem is you are speaking in absolutes. And we don't know nearly enough about this virus to speak in absolutes. Yes, it is clear that the elderly, especially with background problems like emphysema, are the ones by far most at risk. Very few young people (below 30) have caught it, or at least, if they have their symptoms were so mild they never got reported.

But to outright say that healthy people need have no worries is simply not true. We don't know enough yet to make that statement.

Quote

Because its so hard to detect and report hospitals did not want to get swamped by older people or immune defficient people.

And yes, I get this too. But on an individual level, while I don't have much concern for myself, I am concerned that, for example, I could get this virus and unknowingly pass it on to people I know who DO have background problems - like emphysema, and thus kill them. You understand this is not a minor concern?

 

Edited by Argus

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I think what must be spooking the governments is that they have been told that this is not a steady state, the virus can change on the fly, it can get deadlier as it goes.

They are doing catastrophic damage to the economy, would they really do that, just because a few 80 year olds were going to die in old folks homes ?

The median age for those hospitalized in Italy is not 80, it's 65, and if that's the middle, that means there's a lot of people in their 40's on ventilators too.

The reason why the 80 year olds are dying first, is that they are unplugging them from the ventilators first, to give those to younger persons.

Doesn't really matter how old you are, if you get upper and lower double pneumonia, the ventilator will be the only thing keeping you breathing

That's what makes this the Super Cold, the protein spikes dig in and they don't let go.

Those spikes are like lock picks, so far they've figured out how to pick the weak locks, but they are evolving in real time, getting better at what they do as they go.

Edited by Dougie93

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19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

 

They are doing catastrophic damage to the economy, would they really do that, just because a few 80 year olds were going to die in old folks homes ?

 

Yes, that's what has made me more concerned recently.

I was trying to point that out to a moderator on PF.com who kept comparing it to normal flu death numbers and was playing it down as media hysteria and panic mongering.

I eventually had a post deleted for saying that he was just some geezer on the internet babbling on about the flu. LOL.

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7 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Yes, that's what has made me more concerned recently.

Cold Wartime conditions, this is like the Cuban Missile Crisis

Not much you can do but kick back and enjoy what time you would have left if this turns out to be the Doomsday Bug

Just saying, Zoonotic Novel Coronavirus has the characteristics of a Doomsday Bug, that's the kind of bug it's going to be when it comes.

It's not going to be plague, it's not going to be ebola, it's going to be a Super Cold,  sort of like this one right here.

Edited by Dougie93

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16 hours ago, Argus said:

That's hopeful, but I'd feel better if it wasn't such old data, which means coming mainly from China or in the early stages elsewhere. And I'd like to know how many wind up in sufficient distress to need to be hospitalized. The only data I've seen on that says 13% in Canada.

It isn't just the death risk, but permanent disability as well - lasting lung damage.

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7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Cold Wartime conditions, this is like the Cuban Missile Crisis

Not much you can do but kick back and enjoy what time you would have left if this turns out to be the Doomsday Bug

Just saying, Zoonotic Novel Coronavirus has the characteristics of a Doomsday Bug, that's the kind of bug it's going to be when it comes.

It's not going to be plague, it's not going to be ebola, it's going to be a Super Cold,  sort of like this one right here.

So we mass produce ventilators and everyone works in healthcare, just as most people were in the military or munitions during the war.  

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