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33 minutes ago, Boges said:

So then the comparison to deaths between Canada and the US isn't an Apples to Apples comparison in your eyes. 

I'll concede that population density is a factor, but it's not the only factor. 

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapping-population-density-dot-town/

It's a pretty big factor if you look at this map. 

IMO the biggest factor for spreading the virus in the US was the date of the flight ban from China. Obviously if they got that early enough the death rate would be 0%. 

There were less than 100 deaths when Trump shut the country down, I doubt that he could have convinced Americans to shut down when there were ten deaths.

Pelosi was doing her Chinatown hugging tour 3 weeks before he shut the country down, they weren't ready.

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In the meantime, London has lost more bus drivers to the bug than doctors. Buses crammed full of construction workers because they felt that they should be able to go to work if they wanted to and cou

Let me help you put your mind at ease. You don't need to argue this point. I hardly see anyone who thinks it. We can all see how this virus is bad and must be safeguarded against. All viruses that kil

Partial travel bans are like having a pissing section in a swimming pool.

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapping-population-density-dot-town/

It's a pretty big factor if you look at this map. 

IMO the biggest factor for spreading the virus in the US was the date of the flight ban from China. Obviously if they got that early enough the death rate would be 0%. 

There were less than 100 deaths when Trump shut the country down, I doubt that he could have convinced Americans to shut down when there were ten deaths.

Pelosi was doing her Chinatown hugging tour 3 weeks before he shut the country down, they weren't ready.

It appears that the New York outbreak came from Europe and not China. 

And some people think this disease was in the general population as early as January, we just couldn't recognize it. 

If people go really sick in January, but hadn't travelled, they may have assumed it was just the flu, but it's very possible they had COVID-19 and didn't know it. 

We won't know until reliable Antibody testing is available. 

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9 minutes ago, Boges said:

It appears that the New York outbreak came from Europe and not China. 

If that's the case then it's a huge proof of the efficacy of Trump's travel ban on China, because it means that the virus had to take the long way to get there. 

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And some people think this disease was in the general population as early as January, we just couldn't recognize it. 

I don't doubt that at all. I'd be more surprised to hear that it wasn't. 

Quote

If people go really sick in January, but hadn't travelled, they may have assumed it was just the flu, but it's very possible they had COVID-19 and didn't know it. 

We won't know until reliable Antibody testing is available. 

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that I had it at some point. 

We flew from YVR to Vegas on Feb 23, the day after the Heavyweight Championship of the World. We have a kid in elementary school and baseball. I will definitely take the antibody test when it's available.

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6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

If that's the case then it's a huge proof of the efficacy of Trump's travel ban on China, because it means that the virus had to take the long way to get there. 

Sure, but it also shows that acting unilaterally is useless unless you're banning travel to all countries. 

Either every country bans travel from the source, or all countries close borders like we're seeing now. 

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Matters little where a virus originates. What matters is how fast it travels if its contagious and if contagious how it impacts and how it mutates. Origin point is important to know spread pattern and speed but only with pathogens that cause serious medical harm. That is your point about travel and I think it's safe to say we all agree on it.

In this case we do what we do second guess when we should have known. We have always known. We have always known fatal viruses exist and can jump from other species. We did not and do not need the specific virus structure to know that. Our failure to come up with proper pandemic procedures was not dependent on knowing about this particular virus.

We humans need to die en masse in a first world country for anyone to take notice.

Ditto what Boges said. Partial travel restrictions are a problem.

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1 hour ago, Boges said:

Sure, but it also shows that acting unilaterally is useless unless you're banning travel to all countries. 

Either every country bans travel from the source, or all countries close borders like we're seeing now. 

Yup. If more countries would have closed off travel from China sooner then we could have avoided a lot of deaths.

I don't think we knew about it soon enough to stop an outbreak though. Even on Dec 31, when China notified the WHO, it was probably too late. There would have been at least a few people who had gotten out of Wuhan by then. That means that in the future, a travel ban, no matter when it's initiated, needs to be accompanied by some form of social distancing. I think that some form of social distancing is the new normal now though. The days of close-talkers and gratuitous handshakes is over. 

 

I'm still not altogether convinced that there are some people who wanted this cat to get out of the bag but that's just a conspiracy theory for now.

TBH, it doesn't even have to be a whole government to be in on it. Across the world, how many people are handling these deadly viruses now? A hundred? A thousand? It just takes one psycho. There could be a kid watching this pandemic unfold right now who wants to be "the one" to unleash something like covid in the future. A person could could have already set themselves on the path of becoming a virologit/epidemiologist just to get access. 

And honestly, this kind of world crisis was too easy to manufacture. Anyone who could have correctly predicted this outbreak could have positioned himself to profit financially from it. 

It'S onLy p4r4n0ia iF tHey'RE noT Out to GEt yoU. 

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

Matters little where a virus originates. What matters is how fast it travels if its contagious and if contagious how it impacts and how it mutates. Origin point is important to know spread pattern and speed but only with pathogens that cause serious medical harm. That is your point about travel and I think it's safe to say we all agree on it.

In this case we do what we do second guess when we should have known. We have always known. We have always known fatal viruses exist and can jump from other species. We did not and do not need the specific virus structure to know that. Our failure to come up with proper pandemic procedures was not dependent on knowing about this particular virus.

We humans need to die en masse in a first world country for anyone to take notice.

Ditto what Boges said. Partial travel restrictions are a problem.

Honestly Rue?

Did we really need any more sad truths at a time like this? 

Feel shame.

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6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Their population density is also 8x what ours is, and that’s including NYC. 
 

If you spread America’s 330M people over 80M sq km, (that’s more than Europe, North America and South America combined) would you still expect them to have 57,000 deaths?

I hope not, because that would be stupid. 

The population density in South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore is greater, and they handled this quite well.

 

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It's interesting to watch how difficult this virus is to contain, even in a locked down situation. In Manitoba, where we are socially distant by nature, we've so far managed to keep the numbers low (just one new case in the last two days), but we still can't be complacent. North Dakota, which is just an hour's drive and even more naturally isolated and half the population of Manitoba, was getting the same number as Manitoba in March,  up into around 35 a day in early April, and is now around 67 new cases a day. You'd think that with fewer than 100 cases a day, they could contain it. Manitoba has been able to so far and has brought its numbers down from a high of 40. The only difference I can see is North Dakota (and the U.S. in general) has a less competent government. 

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On 4/26/2020 at 9:57 AM, WestCanMan said:

Dude, CBC is an epic failure on the important issue of holding our PM accountable, and they showed massive bias in elevating the $90K duffygate scandal into the issue of the century.

Did they give SNC, an actual scandal, that much coverage? Nope. Did they even touch on one of the main topics in that scandal? Nope. Do you even know why it's so vastly significant that Trudeau was caught helping them, of all the companies in Canada? Probably not. It has nothing to do with where the people at SNC live and work.

I don't think you've looked carefully enough. There are more articles and news regarding SNC from CBC than any other media outlet in Canada. There were awards that CBC journalists won who covered the SNC scandal. 

Look at all of the articles on it here.

 

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

The population density in South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore is greater, and they handled this quite well.

Agreed. They all had extremely aggressive defensive strategies, and they all went directly against all of the advice of the WHO before even Trump did.

They treated covid as if H2H transmission was a proven fact, they encouraged citizens to wear masks (they even sent masks to their citizens) and they put travel restrictions on everyone coming from Hubei province.

 

 

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2 hours ago, marcus said:

I don't think you've looked carefully enough. There are more articles and news regarding SNC from CBC than any other media outlet in Canada. There were awards that CBC journalists won who covered the SNC scandal. 

Look at all of the articles on it here.

I clicked your link, interestingly enough the option to click on "video" wasn't there, even when I refreshed, and again when I did a new search. 

If you replace SNC with Duffygate the video option comes back. 

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@ Marcus

in the whole time that SNC was a luke-warm topic, did you ever hear about Michel Fournier from anyone else but me?

CBC wrote about this in 2016, but didn't talk about SNC's dirty past on TV when SNC hit the news again in 2019. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fournier-charged-snc-lavalin-1.3657923

Just google Michel Fournier Bribe SNC, you can even add CBC at the end, other random stations come up. CBC didn't touch the topic on CBC News." If a GOP member had received a bribe from the WHO do you think we'd hear about it? From a Ukrainian gov't official? Russian Gov't?

In short, the company that Trudeau created the DPA law for, the company that Trudeau coerced the AG to protect with his shiny new DPA law, has a court-documented history of bribing another Liberal politician with $2.3M for aid in winning a bridge contract. 

That bridge contract was only worth $127M. Trudeau had promised Canadians $150 BILLION worth of infrastructure spending, and SNC wasn't going to be allowed to bid on any of the contracts handed out for that work unless they were protected by the DPA law.

If SNC gave $2.3M for help winning a $127M bridge contract, how much might they have given Trudeau to help get them access to bid on $150B worth contracts?

SNC was a massive scandal compared to Duffygate. CBC lambasted Harper nightly over duffygate on the nightly news. CBC treated SNC like no big D.

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7 hours ago, BubberMiley said:

The only difference I can see is North Dakota (and the U.S. in general) has a less competent government. 

Probably because there's such a huge yahoo population that mistrusts and hates it's government's guts - a bunch of fake news religious hooey and disdain for scientific expertise on top of that certainly doesn't help. If an authoritarian dictatorship can barely contain COVID a libertarian democracy doesn't have a chance.

It definitely seems the sneakier or stupider your government is the worse it can be too. 

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19 hours ago, Boges said:

Sure, but it also shows that acting unilaterally is useless unless you're banning travel to all countries. 

Either every country bans travel from the source, or all countries close borders like we're seeing now. 

Partial travel bans are like having a pissing section in a swimming pool.

Edited by Iceni warrior
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We are now learning that some people who were hospilaized and have recovered no longer have antibodies and some have even gotten sick again. Another disturbing revelation (new to me at least) is there has never been a vaccine developed against a corona virus. The work on SARS and MERS was discontinued for the most part. If this is correct, we may be dealing with this sneaky bastard for a very long time. You won't be able to tell who has had it by testing for antibodies, but that may not matter if they are not immune anymore.

The ramifacations are sobering. We will be reverting to a 19th century economy. Tourism will disappear. Global trade will drop off. Massive permanent unemployment with no social safety net, and a 30% to 50% drop in the standard of living for those still employed...and I'm an optimist.

If this is depressing for you, remember, I'm the guy who said Reagan would lose to Carter, Secretary Clinton would win in 2016, and the United States would never invade Iraq. 

"Don't be so gloomy.

After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly."

Orson Wells in The Third Man

 

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Your Queenship. Sars mutated to be very difficult to catch. In return for that quality, it is actually more deadly if you catch it but much more difficult to catch...this iscwhat happens with viruses.  Next most viruses never have a foolproof vaccine. There are vaccines for specific strains of viruses. Their being covid family viruses does not prevent a vaccine for them, just not all strains can be covered by one vaccine, so its not accurate to say all covid viruses can not have a vaccine, sometimes, some no.

Next many viruses are invisible and show no early signs or signs all.  Medicine knows this and creates tests to early detect before symptoms show. There is one for this virus, there will be now early testing in annual blood tests...it just takes time to implement and perfect. 

It's also very early to know how long anti bodies remain in the system. As a general rule there is no one rule for how long they stay in anybody. 

Next viruses mutate meaning with some we later on develop herd immunity we do not yet have seen th ed virus is new.

You are making assumptions waybtok early to make. In fact everything you say applies to hundreds of viruses that now exist. A virus is  not unique. Nothing unique has come from this virus. It appears deadly and unique because of how its presented to you and what you read.

I could list hundreds of viruses more dezdly than Covid 19 that can kill you and are invisible. Start with West Nile, Ebola, Zeka, Henta, Spanish flu, influenza. 

Regards, Gomer Pyle, USMC,  Sheriff A. Taylor's, Deputy Sheriff B. Rubble, Dr.'s Kildare, Casey, Welby, Seuss.

I know this chick called Iris

She frets over the covid 19 virus

But what she really needs to worry  about is this

Her boyfriend  just gave her syphilis

Ain't no point worry about  Chinese flu

Just cuz it seems new

We all carry virus gnomes

Which causes me to write these friggin poems

Stop worrying about disease

And freaking out about a sneeze

Yah stop bein so glum

The cure for it all is any fruit juice with rum

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Argus said:

The population density in South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore is greater, and they handled this quite well.

 

I'd be interested in looking at their medical centers and see how they were run. They did something most other nations didn't. Let's take a look and learn from that.

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17 minutes ago, Rue said:

You are making assumptions way to early to make. In fact everything you say applies to hundreds of viruses that now exist. A virus is  not unique. Nothing unique has come from this virus. It appears deadly and unique because of how its presented to you and what you read.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I have underestimated this thing all along, like most people. When you look at it in context, there are a lot more people who haven't caught it and the mortality rate is fairly low compared to bubonic plague or the "Spanish" (Kansas) unfluenza of 1918. The part about there never having been a vaccine against a corona virus is something I heard on the radio this morning. But then, I'm a potter, not a doctor. It just got me thinking about the "what if" scenarios. If there is one thing I've learned over the last 70 years is nothing and no one is ever as bad as they seem or as good as they seem, except for Stalin and Mao.

At the risk of getting flack from the anti-China lobby, they were taken by surprise by the virus being contagious in people who showed no symptoms. Screening people by checking for fever missed  infected people who did not have a fever. Hence, the breech in containment. I wonder if this virus would have eventually jumped to humans without the wet markets. It has been around for a while so it was probably inevitable, just like the Kansas flu.

But then, I'm just a potter.

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18 hours ago, BubberMiley said:

It's interesting to watch how difficult this virus is to contain, even in a locked down situation. In Manitoba, where we are socially distant by nature, we've so far managed to keep the numbers low (just one new case in the last two days), but we still can't be complacent. North Dakota, which is just an hour's drive and even more naturally isolated and half the population of Manitoba, was getting the same number as Manitoba in March,  up into around 35 a day in early April, and is now around 67 new cases a day. You'd think that with fewer than 100 cases a day, they could contain it. Manitoba has been able to so far and has brought its numbers down from a high of 40. The only difference I can see is North Dakota (and the U.S. in general) has a less competent government. 

In some instances luck plays a hand. 

Getting a slob with covid working at a grocery store or something like that can screw a whole community. 

I'll admit that Mtl sucks anyways, but one bad boss added 69 bodies to the cities' death toll. https://globalnews.ca/news/6850164/quebec-covid-19-nursing-home-lawsuit/ 

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Jean-Pierre Daubois is alleging the Montreal-area long-term care home acted negligently by forcing two employees with COVID-19 symptoms to remain at work, by improperly isolating residents, and by failing to provide protective equipment to employees.

Our idiot PM's riding is there, so it's not surprising if they felt like H2H transmission wasn't happening and masks weren't important. 

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6 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

Partial travel bans are like having a pissing section in a swimming pool.

If other nations in Europe had the balls to ban travel, Trump's ban would have been even more effective.

So it's actually case of "Enacting a partial travel ban is like being the only person who's smart enough to not pee in the pool. If you don't have your own pool, you'll end up smelling like R Kelly's neice."

 

Also, partial travel bans worked for Taiwan, South Korea, etc, but they also disregarded all the WHO's other bad advice though, and they did everything at a furious pace.

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8 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

^^ That's why our own virtue-signallers did so well, eh?

No I said it was mostly because Canada doesn't have anywhere near the number of pig-ignorant yahoos as the US. Our governments up here are more effective because of that. 

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

No I said it was mostly because Canada doesn't have anywhere near the number of pig-ignorant yahoos as the US. Our governments are more effective because of that. 

 

Really ?  Because you have also stated that U.S. government(s) are much better at fisheries management....so which is it ?

 

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