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How should we make China pay?


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19 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

You have to give more credit to the insidious nature of the human beast.

There's no doubt 50000 years of more social evolution would have done wonders.

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And also, entropy increaseth in all things naturally, which means good men need do nothing.

Yeah but good men wouldn't just sit on their asses and watch everything they've built turn to shit when they didn't need to.

Maybe we should have put women in charge.

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The arrest of Li Wenliang and other doctor's trying to warn of the outbreak is not an allegation.  If China refuses to compensate the world for its failing it's regime needs to be changed. The way to 

China lied about the pandemic. China paid off WHO officials so they would shut up and comply with the regime's propaganda. The WHO even told the world there was no evidence that COVID-19 had a human-t

The best idea that I’ve heard is cancelling a portion of debt held by China.

17 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's really easy for a political organization to become complacent and corrupt when there's no accountability or competition.

Even easier when countries that should know better give political organizations international institutions such short shrift.

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16 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Give disgusting governments a seat at the table and they will behave like disgusting governments.

Give disgusting governments an economic advantage over you and...who would do something so stupid anyway?

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34 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah but good men wouldn't just sit on their asses and watch everything they've built turn to shit when they didn't need to.

Maybe we should have put women in charge.

Hey, sexism, self-hatred, and male guilt all in one sentence!

I don't think that would have helped.  Women are just as susceptible to complacency, incompetence, and corruption.  We are all human.

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12 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Hey, sexism, self-hatred, and male guilt all in one sentence!

I don't think that would have helped.  Women are just as susceptible to complacency, incompetence, and corruption.  We are all human.

And just as humanity is composed of both men and women we're also composed of both good and bad people and we can easily tell the difference. Even people who bend their genders can do that.

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21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada already did years ago....having fewer hospital beds per capita than the United States:

 

 

Do you have anything else in your bag of tricks besides blameshifting?  See, I'm not a Canadian nationalist or a Canadian patriot(however that's defined...especially now, after losing Canadian-owned industry and most businesses, we're just a satellite of the United States.

And the days when Canada could adopt an independent foreign policy line (like Pearson and Trudeau One on the Vietnam War) are long gone! Take a look at the Tories' much hated Justin Trudeau. He couldn't jump on board and recognize the puppet- Guiado as Venezuelan leader, something no Canadian government would have agreed to in days past...even Mulroney wouldn't have backed this crap! 

Now, when it comes to domestic-especially economic policy, our feds and provincial leaders are always chanting the balanced budgets mantra when it's about budget cutting. And just like England with its NHS, the first thing they do is defund Medicare. When it all began, the Feds agreed to pay half the costs for each province that set up a public health insurance plan. Last time I checked, Fed money was less than 25% of medical costs. Therefore, each province that decides to hold the line on spending/rather than raise more money through taxes, cuts money from OHIP (here in Ontario) or the Education budget. 

All that aside, Canada isn't in a position to go to war with China for any reason....even if there was a legitimate one!  The US is the nation that practices gunboat diplomacy today. Canada just tags along in the wake of the Empire! 

Now where do you stand on the issue at hand: does the US Empire have a legitimate right to attempt a shakedown of China or any other nation in an attempt to extract wealth and keep the empire functioning?

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23 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's not what I'm justifying.  You saw what I wrote. I said no truck nor trade,  not loot China.

The horses are out of the barn on that one aren't they? 

I believe that this latest debt-fueled recession that has been hit by a pandemic, is going to sink the over-extended global supply chains that have allowed all of this outsourcing. It's not like China or Mexico..as this narrative was originally argued, put a gun to anyone's head and demanded that our manufacturers close down their plants here and outsource production to China! 

Part of the environmental movement has been a drive to re-localize our agriculture and production. Up till now, the immovable object in the way has been the Globalist agenda of corporations that have benefited the most from creating this regime. Now, many of the same players that outsourced everything, are being rewarded to move back to North America.

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It's not China's fault and never said it was. What's at fault in China is that its leader and government put their interests ahead of everyone else. It's the responsibility of China's people to do something about that.  We're in a very similar boat as people in China which is why we're so unprepared.

This crisis is a result of humanity's inability to resolve ancient issues between it and it's governments.  This relationship needs to turned on its head and the only way to do that is physically and very deliberately destroy the capacity for secrecy that exists between the interests of our leaders and ours.  As I say over and over again, monitoring governments to an extent that would make Orwell blush appears to be the only way.

Trust me, the sort of people that write OP's like the one above or that subscribe to Trump have no interest whatsoever in jumping ship the way I'm suggesting.  Very very few people of any partisan or ideological stripe do.

 

The latest tantrum by Trump just tells us that he and other US policymakers are mad that China did not want to remain a vassal state like the US was able to do with Mexico, and started turning trade to their own advantage. Can't blame them for that; it's up to us to do the same thing in our own interests!

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9 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Do you have anything else in your bag of tricks besides blameshifting?  See, I'm not a Canadian nationalist or a Canadian patriot(however that's defined...especially now, after losing Canadian-owned industry and most businesses, we're just a satellite of the United States.

 

If facts upset you....too bad.

 

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And the days when Canada could adopt an independent foreign policy line (like Pearson and Trudeau One on the Vietnam War) are long gone! Take a look at the Tories' much hated Justin Trudeau. He couldn't jump on board and recognize the puppet- Guiado as Venezuelan leader, something no Canadian government would have agreed to in days past...even Mulroney wouldn't have backed this crap!

 

Canada's policy during the Vietnam War was to make as much money from war materials exports to the U.S. and other nations as possible.

 

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All that aside, Canada isn't in a position to go to war with China for any reason....even if there was a legitimate one!  The US is the nation that practices gunboat diplomacy today. Canada just tags along in the wake of the Empire!

 

Canada prefers that it is mostly American blood and treasure that protects the "post WW2 order" that Canada covets so much.

 

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Now where do you stand on the issue at hand: does the US Empire have a legitimate right to attempt a shakedown of China or any other nation in an attempt to extract wealth and keep the empire functioning?

 

The United States has the right to pursue its own interests...Canada has the right to stand by and watch.

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We could start by doing what we can to limit their influence. Close down those Confucius Institutes, which are nothing more than propaganda mills designed to influence western youth. Cut the number of Chinese embassy staff to a bare minimum.
Cut back the number of Chinese immigrants to only the number we can do deep background checks on to ensure they're not simply stooges and spies for China.
Cut the number of Chinese foreign students in Canada, which their government uses as a cudgel to ensure western universities tow the party line.
Ban any use of government money by ANY foreign government within Canada except as cleared by the federal government for a specific purpose. That means no sponsoring local organizations for propaganda purposes.
Ban the operation of Chinese government corporations in Canada. That includes Huawei
Ban Chinese corporations from investing in or buying Canadian companies.
Make sure no essential goods are manufactured, in whole or in part, in China. That includes drugs and medical equipment. Subsidize local manufacture if necessary.
Actively encourage Canadian companies which buy from Chinese companies, or which have subsidiaries there, to move their purchases to Mexico or some other friendly state through the use of tax incentives.
Greatly increase funding to CSIS and CSE to combat Chinese hacking and espionage.. Provide tax incentives to corporations to strengthen their IT security.

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23 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

If facts upset you....too bad.

And how is your stock 'Canada's just as bad' arguments using facts?

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Canada's policy during the Vietnam War was to make as much money from war materials exports to the U.S. and other nations as possible.

That certainly has been a factor in Canadian foreign policy in recent times, i.e. Canada jumping on the Guiado bandwagon in Venezuela because Canadian-based mining companies want to exploit the southern region along the Amazon Valley. But, if it goes back to Vietnam in fact, why was the Canadian Government following an antiwar track? Weapons makers and other business interests didn't have as much political influence back then?

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Canada prefers that it is mostly American blood and treasure that protects the "post WW2 order" that Canada covets so much.

No argument here! The "you better watch out for my big friend here" Canadian foreign policy in the post-cold war era, makes me totally sick and feel like flying the flag upside down! 

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The United States has the right to pursue its own interests...Canada has the right to stand by and watch.

Along a similar theme as above, your Democrats and faux Trump opposition in the Republican Party and all across MSM play the same game of decrying and lamenting Trump's statements and actions....while quietly signing on and making sure Congress approves and forwards the money in their budgets. 

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1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

And how is your stock 'Canada's just as bad' arguments using facts?

 

It is an effective counter that presents the facts and context of Canada's similar actions and policies vis-a-vis the United States, which is often invoked in this and other threads.

 

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That certainly has been a factor in Canadian foreign policy in recent times, i.e. Canada jumping on the Guiado bandwagon in Venezuela because Canadian-based mining companies want to exploit the southern region along the Amazon Valley. But, if it goes back to Vietnam in fact, why was the Canadian Government following an antiwar track? Weapons makers and other business interests didn't have as much political influence back then?

 

Because Canada wanted the export trade for raw materials and manufactured products, like defoliants (Agent Orange) , ammunition, napalm, aircraft engines, explosives, base metals, etc.    The war was good for Canada's economy.

 

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No argument here! The "you better watch out for my big friend here" Canadian foreign policy in the post-cold war era, makes me totally sick and feel like flying the flag upside down! 

 

OK, but your government still likes it that way.

 

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Along a similar theme as above, your Democrats and faux Trump opposition in the Republican Party and all across MSM play the same game of decrying and lamenting Trump's statements and actions....while quietly signing on and making sure Congress approves and forwards the money in their budgets. 

 

Yes, that's how it works regardless of "ruling" party.   This is a separate issue from Canada taking any meaningful action against China unilaterally.  China and the U.S. are now/were #1 trading partners with an economic co-dependency.   It is unclear to me how Canada can take any meaningful stand without damaging its own economy or convince other nations to push back against China ("make China pay") at a time of drastic economic recovery.

The only government that has significantly confronted China on trade has been Trump's.

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On 4/16/2020 at 6:08 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It is an effective counter that presents the facts and context of Canada's similar actions and policies vis-a-vis the United States, which is often invoked in this and other threads.

 

 

Because Canada wanted the export trade for raw materials and manufactured products, like defoliants (Agent Orange) , ammunition, napalm, aircraft engines, explosives, base metals, etc.    The war was good for Canada's economy.

 

 

OK, but your government still likes it that way.

 

 

Yes, that's how it works regardless of "ruling" party.   This is a separate issue from Canada taking any meaningful action against China unilaterally.  China and the U.S. are now/were #1 trading partners with an economic co-dependency.   It is unclear to me how Canada can take any meaningful stand without damaging its own economy or convince other nations to push back against China ("make China pay") at a time of drastic economic recovery.

The only government that has significantly confronted China on trade has been Trump's.

Interesting but you do know all the products you mention above were branches of American owned  companies. Start with Dupont. 

The US is quite happy with Canadian business as long as its owned by an American otherwise it uses tariffs like honour  aluminum to try shut any Canadian competitor down.  Oh come now. Go buy a Canadian made beer in the US. Lol eat a Canadian peacd of meat in the US... uh yah. Petro Canada and Husky stations in the US..sure... Then there are our Arrows. Oh wait  not anymore. Wait our cars..uh no...hockey league...lol Aerican Hockey League.   Hey we do have A and W. 

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

Interesting but you do know all the products you mention above were branches of American owned  companies. Start with Dupont. 

The US is quite happy with Canadian business as long as its owned by an American otherwise it uses tariffs

 

Nope....many were also Canadian owned, especially for mining, base metals, castings, machining, textiles, etc.

Canadian business is quite happy to be owned by Americans or Chinese, because it sold out a long time ago and is far more dependent on foreign direct investment and lacks sufficient domestic capital.    Pushing back against China (or America) will be even more difficult now. 

 

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War Boom in Canada

At home, 500 Canadian firms sold $2.5 billion of war materiel (ammunition, napalm, aircraft engines and explosives) to the Pentagon. Another $10 billion in food, beverages, berets and boots for the troops was exported to the US, as well as nickel, copper, lead, brass and oil for shell casings, wiring, plate armour and military transport.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/vietnam-war

 

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope....many were also Canadian owned, especially for mining, base metals, castings, machining, textiles, etc.

Canadian business is quite happy to be owned by Americans or Chinese, because it sold out a long time ago and is far more dependent on foreign direct investment and lacks sufficient domestic capital.    Pushing back against China (or America) will be even more difficult now. 

 

 

We sold it all off. Even the mineral rights to the US.  Very few truly Canadian companies exist and when they do they operate in global markets that are controlled by China or the US.

For Canada to be self reliant would require a huge paradigm shift. To do that we would require proud visionaries, educated consumers and a genuine desire to be a sovereign nation not a hodge podge of self interests.  We are a nation created to resist being a nation and remain a colony subordinate to a King. So our very origin comes from a desire to be sheep...or buffalo..maybe  reindeer. Whether we have heard immunity at this point  is unlikely. 

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10 minutes ago, Rue said:

We sold it all off. Even the mineral rights to the US.  Very few truly Canadian companies exist and when they do they operate in global markets that are controlled by China or the US.

 

The Vietnam War ended long before FTA/NAFTA....nice try.

 

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For Canada to be self reliant would require a huge paradigm shift. To do that we would require proud visionaries, educated consumers and a genuine desire to be a sovereign nation not a hodge podge of self interests.  We are a nation created to resist being a nation and remain a colony subordinate to a King. So our very origin comes from a desire to be sheep...or buffalo..maybe  reindeer. Whether we have heard immunity at this point  is unlikely. 

 

No country is totally self reliant....Canada is just less so, having voluntarily joined its economic and military fortune to that of the bastard Americans.

Canada isn't happy unless it is bitching about the United States.

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4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The Vietnam War ended long before FTA/NAFTA....nice try.

 

 

No country is totally self reliant....Canada is just less so, having voluntarily joined its economic and military fortune to that of the bastard Americans.

Canada isn't happy unless it is bitching about the United States.

I am not complaining just stating fact.  You mistake me  or others of hating the US or you. Not at all...but youcan get annoying with your victim role.

My only on as end off  object of scorn is my aging  body. 

God Bless Michelob. 

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On April 14, 2020 at 10:01 AM, Michael Hardner said:

First of all, can we have a cite for the allegations in post #1.

Secondly, telling your creditors that you aren't honouring your debt is the kind of thing that has repercussions.  People should know that China holds a lot of cards in our relationship.

Making excuses for China's rogue behavior, will help no one in North America who's affected by the CoronaVirus.

Debt to China can still be honored ---such as paying much of it off with $$$ received from suing China

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On 4/14/2020 at 1:01 PM, Michael Hardner said:

First of all, can we have a cite for the allegations in post #1.

Secondly, telling your creditors that you aren't honouring your debt is the kind of thing that has repercussions.  People should know that China holds a lot of cards in our relationship.

Too many cards in fact.

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51288854

US charges three researchers with lying about links to China

Harvard department chair Charles Lieber is accused of lying about his connections, while the researchers were charged with being foreign agents.

Mr Lieber allegedly accepted more than $1m in grant money from the Chinese government.

The filings say he was also given more than $1.5m to establish a research lab at Wuhan University of Technology

Prosecutors said Yanqing Ye, a Boston University robotics researcher, concealed the fact that she was in the Chinese army.

Ms Ye is accused of falsely identifying herself as a student and also continuing to work for the People's Liberation Army, while completing a number of assignments in the US.

Cancer researcher Zaosong Zheng was arrested at Boston Logan International Airport with 21 vials of biological samples in his bag. Prosecutors allege he was planning to return to China to continue his research there.

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3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51288854

US charges three researchers with lying about links to China

From your link.

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the US view is that China is repeating a notorious tactic in its development playbook: intellectual property theft. For decades, Washington has accused Beijing of stealing science and technology from the US in order to gain an competitive advantage.

So from the view of a consumer who is told greed is good and to only care about himself, at the end of the day all this intellectual theft results in me paying less at Walmart. This has been going on for decades you say?

Where's the downside again?

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