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The failure of the western intelligence services


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13 minutes ago, Rue said:

Eye back on point  I really do think they phackec up in Chinz and covered it up but I see it as negligence over wet markets. I think we are bombarded now with false stories to distract from that. How hard is it  d for China to clean up its food handling prices.

That plus authorities tried to suppress news of the outbreak. That's unforgivable AFAIC and you know why.

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This topic is to discuss where did the western intelligence agencies failed in regards to the coronavirus pandemic ? Nancy Pelosi said "Come to China Town" and Donald Trump said "It is a democrat

You could be right, we'll never know. He took the heat for it though, at the start when it was panned as racist by the Dems/American MSM/the WHO/Trudeau, so now that people like Biden are lying and sa

What is in a word..ignored some reports outright...dismissed some outright... uderestimated some..."lost"   or "misplaced" or "hid" some...I worked in government so we had ways to be ordered how to ig

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15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

If there was such an intelligence report then of course I'm serious.  I guess what lends the most credibility to the possibility is the implication that incompetency is what prevented the report from being acted on.

 

No. Think about it. You do not get a black and white report. It comes in many forms triggering a myriad of issues to be dealt with. Crisis management is about having to take numerous conflicting and competing issues and trying to juggle them all.  

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3 hours ago, xul said:

1) How could Trump quarantine all travelers from China by merely banning the flights from China? Anyone who wants to enter US from China just needs to fly to another country first then fly into US. Unless US bans all flights, not only from China but also from other countries entering US, the ban isn't effective on blocking travelers from China entering US. 

He didn't quarantine travellers from China, he banned people from flying into the US if they had been to China within 14 days. I've typed that about 100x here now. This is old news.

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2) Trump didn't ask anyone to be quarantined in US except American citizens who were directly evacuated from Wuhan by US government. Instead on Jan 31 US government announced all travelers from China should go to a third country and stay there for 14 days first before entering US. Trump saw this as a quarantine measure because if the person was infected in China, he or she would show symptom within 14 days and was treated in another country instead of in US, which means "Other countries first" on eating "Chinese virus". But there is a flaw in his brilliant scheme. If a person who wasn't infected in China, but was infected in the third country during the 14 days staying, he or she might not show any symptom at all before he was qualified to entering US.

2) Trump allowed Americans to come back to America and be quarantined. He didn't force them to stay in foreign countries and be unable to get medical help in their own country. Shocker.

Trump forced non-Americans to wait out the 14 days elsewhere instead of allowing them to become America's problem. That makes sense too. Why should I be able to just leave the country I'm in and force America to take me if I'm carrying a pandemic - that's a completely absurd and idiotic notion.

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On the contrary, Canada asked travelers to be quarantined in Canada, which gave Canada the better control on the effectiveness of the quarantine measures.

Having people quarantined here in Canada is so much safer for us because we need to bring the virus here to be truly safe from it? And only Canada, in 2020, knows how to quarantine sick people. Every other country would fail to recognize sick people or quarantine them. So brilliant lol.

FYI Canada did not even screen passengers from foreign countries. I know people who wandered through YVR without answering any questions at all about their health. It was even on the local news here in BC. We only had voluntary self-quarantine for foreign travellers to Canada right up until March 16th.

Returning Canadians are the only people who faced MANDATORY SELF-QUARANTINES and that was after the international travel bans came into effect. Canadians faced up to 6 months in prison and up to $1M in fines if they broke their mandatory quarantines.  

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3/4) I agree that the density of population may contribute a lot on Canada's performance. But still there are some megacities  in Canada and obviously the situations in these cities are not as worse as in NYC.

Like I said before, NYC has up to 11M people there if you include visitors. That's 1/3 of the population of Canada in 800 sq km. Stop making that comparison. It's utterly retarded.

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5) I'm under the impression that how many cases a province gets depends on what kind of industry it has. Saskatchewan and Manitoba have far less cases than ON or QC because their major industry is agriculture. Farmers needn't international travel to sell their products and by supplies for their farms but manufacturing needs a lot of international travelling.

Saskatchewan is 650,000 sq km with only 1M people. Chinese and European tourists aren't stupid enough to go to Saskatchewan in January. 

I think WEM might be the reason for Alberta's high infection rate. Maybe the dorms and mall at U of A. Just a guess. 

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23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That plus authorities tried to suppress news of the outbreak. That's unforgivable AFAIC and you know why.

China probably lied. Was it to prevent panic, stall for time..is it now part of a propaganda agenda..we ask...but will we get answers?

Sure all countries have made mistakes from being unprepared...but is that really a secret? Our media doctors are not denying the virus caught them flat foot. Incompetence and mistakes of course are happening. Bad timing yes. Humans often do short sighted things that lead to catastrophe...and this unfortunately is sometimes the only way we then learn to identify potential risks and learn pro-active measures to try lessen these risks.

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1 minute ago, Rue said:

No. Think about it. You do not get a black and white report. It comes in many forms triggering a myriad of issues to be dealt with. Crisis management is about having to take numerousvconflictingband competing issues and trying to juggle them all. 

You're stirring the waters to make them look deep.  A report lands on your desk about a potentially cataclysmic outbreak of disease from a intelligence unit whose job it is to keep an eye out for exactly that and so you start juggling a myriad of other issues.  Okay. That only adds weight to the sense this is just one more failure of competency in the scheme of things. 

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18 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

He didn't quarantine travellers from China, he banned people from flying into the US if they had been to China within 14 days. I've typed that about 100x here now. This is old news.

2) Trump allowed Americans to come back to America and be quarantined. He didn't force them to stay in foreign countries and be unable to get medical help in their own country. Shocker.

Trump forced non-Americans to wait out the 14 days elsewhere instead of allowing them to become America's problem. That makes sense too. Why should I be able to just leave the country I'm in and force America to take me if I'm carrying a pandemic - that's a completely absurd and idiotic notion.

Having people quarantined here in Canada is so much safer for us because we need to bring the virus here to be truly safe from it? And only Canada, in 2020, knows how to quarantine sick people. Every other country would fail to recognize sick people or quarantine them. So brilliant lol.

FYI Canada did not even screen passengers from foreign countries. I know people who wandered through YVR without answering any questions at all about their health. It was even on the local news here in BC. We only had voluntary self-quarantine for foreign travellers to Canada right up until March 16th.

Returning Canadians are the only people who faced MANDATORY SELF-QUARANTINES and that was after the international travel bans came into effect. Canadians faced up to 6 months in prison and up to $1M in fines if they broke their mandatory quarantines.  

Like I said before, NYC has up to 11M people there if you include visitors. That's 1/3 of the population of Canada in 800 sq km. Stop making that comparison. It's utterly retarded.

Saskatchewan is 650,000 sq km with only 1M people. Chinese and European tourists aren't stupid enough to go to Saskatchewan in January. 

I think WEM might be the reason for Alberta's high infection rate. Maybe the dorms and mall at U of A. Just a guess. 

Trump made none of these decisions. He ordered them based on the best available advice he was given. He says a lot of shit. He has no filter..but blaming him is dumb. He is a mouthpiece. He is rude, chubby,  says shit but he is not  making medical decisions and has never claimed to.

Likewise Trudeau is a mouthpiece told to say what he does.  He can not even spell covid.  

Personally I think the Premiers and certain Mayors are forced to be much more hands on due to the sevices they must keep rolling out 24 hours now. Most health issues come under provincial domain and create serious issues for larger municipal governments when dealing with welfare, the homeless, emergency services, essential sevices like garbage.

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15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're stirring the waters to make them look deep.  A report lands on your desk about a potentially cataclysmic outbreak of disease from a intelligence unit whose job it is to keep an eye out for exactly that and so you start juggling a myriad of other issues.  Okay. That only adds weight to the sense this is just one more failure of competency in the scheme of things. 

Of course they are complex. You are second guessing thousands of issues to be managed. Wes tried to provide some possible issues. He never claimed he had it figured out in fact but you do. You think calling a pandemic complex in terms of management is me  making it look deep. ..

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If the denial of the report is based on the CIA saying there never was anyone gathering this sort of intelligence in the first place I think it's just as fair to ask why there wasn't.  It's just another failure of preparedness if there wasn't.

Like I said, its as if this virus knew the perfect moment to strike.

At this point I'm almost willing to chalk it all up to karma - a cascade of destinies stemming from past actions or inactions as the case may be.

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4 minutes ago, Rue said:

Of course they are complex. You are second guessing thousands of issues to be managed.

No. I'm just looking at one issue, how the word cataclysmic could escape notice.  Maybe if they'd written it in big red Betsy like letters it would have made a dfference.

You're simply conjuring up thousands of issues like a cloud of smoke.

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16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No. I'm just looking at one issue, how the word cataclysmic could escape notice.  Maybe if they'd written it in big red Betsy like letters it would have made a dfference.

You're simply conjuring up thousands of issues like a cloud of smoke.

I am not making anything up. The virus triggered different levels of notice that filtered their through way through an elaborate information maze triggering thousands of uncoordinated actions until more unified approaches could be considered then implemented. 

Betsy told me years ago to wash my hands and not eat bat meat. She uses  sign language when I do not listen. I listen. 

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6 minutes ago, Rue said:

Trump made none of these decisions. He ordered them based on the best available advice he was given.

You could be right, we'll never know. He took the heat for it though, at the start when it was panned as racist by the Dems/American MSM/the WHO/Trudeau, so now that people like Biden are lying and saying that they initially supported it he should get his share of credit too. 

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He says a lot of shit. He has no filter..but blaming him is dumb. He is a mouthpiece. He is rude, chubby,  says shit but he is not  making medical decisions and has never claimed to.

Likewise Trudeau is a mouthpiece told to say what he does.  He can not even spell covid.  

Personally I think the Premiers and certain Mayors are forced to be much more hands on due to the sevices they must keep rolling out 24 hours now. Most health issues come under provincial domain and create serious issues for larger municipal governments when dealing with welfare, the homeless, emergency services, essential sevices like garbage.

Agreed. It's sad to see how many of our leaders are fumbling their way through this. 

A lot of blame should go to the WHO for literally giving all of the wrong advice at the start, but In Canada it's a disgrace that we don't have an actual medical professional closer to the top of the heap. Our graphics designer was way out of her depth, mismanaging an actual pandemic.

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4 minutes ago, Rue said:

I am not making anything up. The virus triggered different levels of notice that filtered their through way through an elaborate information maze triggering thousands of uncoordinated actions until more unified approaches could be considered than implemented. 

Ah yes I can see it clearly now...

 

James Horner A Kaleidoscope of Mathematics A Beautiful Mind ...

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

The US did not block flights from China. It blocked foreigners who had been to China. Since Trump issued his block nearly half a million people have entered the US on flights from China. And virtually none were screened or ordered into quarantine.

Yes, the US blocked travellers who had been to China in the past 14 days. I've typed that 100s of times and you caught me writing the shorthand version. Take a victory lap.

There were 430,000 Chinese nationals who flew directly from China to the US between the start of the pandemic and the travel ban. China wasn't even allowing people from Wuhan into other parts of China when the US put that ban in place. It's pretty weird that they called it racist. 

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On 4/18/2020 at 12:12 PM, xul said:

Israeli media report that CIA alerted US, NATO and Israel on coronavirus outbreak in China in November.

US alerted Israel, NATO to disease outbreak in China in November

 

The Times of Israel is a reputable newspaper but there’s very little detail in this claim. 
 

As has been noted, the retrospectoscope gives a distorted view of events. If true, this was one piece of info from thousands to be assessed with no red line under it indicating how important it would become.

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20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

If the denial of the report is based on the CIA saying there never was anyone gathering this sort of intelligence in the first place I think it's just as fair to ask why there wasn't.  It's just another failure of preparedness if there wasn't.

Like I said, its as if this virus knew the perfect moment to strike.

At this point I'm almost willing to chalk it all up to karma - a cascade of destinies stemming from past actions or inactions as the case may be.

China busted up the CIA within their country back in 2016/17. If you watched a more reliable news source you'd know that.

They shot one CIA agent outside of a Chinese gov't building, they jailed some, some fled the country because they were exposed... entire spy networks were lost. US intel from China is massively "lacking", if you could really say that it's something that should be happening.

On the other side of the coin America lets Chinese study at their best universities, there are even Chinese gov't institutions on campuses for them. It would be racist for America to ban them, but there's the serious threat of espionage to balance out. The Chinese gov't is hacking into everything and stealing secrets from everywhere and they're a real threat.

That's why the WHO was so important at this time. Their job was to monitor and investigate but all they did was copy and paste Communist Party of China propaganda, which actively allowed the virus to break out. 

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1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The Times of Israel is a reputable newspaper but there’s very little detail in this claim. 
 

As has been noted, the retrospectoscope gives a distorted view of events. If true, this was one piece of info from thousands to be assessed with no red line under it indicating how important it would become.

If only Betsy had been on the case. 

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3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

China busted up the CIA within their country back in 2016/17. If you watched a more reliable news source you'd know that.

They shot one CIA agent outside of a Chinese gov't building, they jailed some, some fled the country because they were exposed... entire spy networks were lost. US intel from China is massively "lacking", if you could really say that it's something that should be happening.

Cite?

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1 hour ago, xul said:

 

Dr. Horacio Arruda explains the source of current QC outbreak:

 

I think the current situation around the world is because during the early stage of the pandemic all national leaders in the world and WHO doctors believed, I mean they didn't speak it out aloud like Trump but believed it in their heart, that the virus was just some "Chinese virus"---like SARS in 2003 when most infected were Chinese in China and once China manages to get it under control, the virus will disappear and everything will back to normal. So why should they bother to inflict more stern quarantine measures which would definitely harm economy if there was an easy approach? 

When they realized that  covid-19 wasn't just another SARS, it was too late to contain it.  

That is a likely scenario.  A mistake covered up by more mistakes.  What I do not get is complacency China has shown in not preventing virus outbreaks  that led to this one as well. 

Complacency for implementing proper food handling practicesc starts in China. Coming clean about this must start and end with China and as well  as all  other governments not having proper pandemic  planning put in placexaster Sars.

 I  have zero confidence in the  Chinese government because of all the disinformation it has sent out. 

China needs to clean up its act. Its now acting as if this is a minor annoyance it quickly cleaned up. Not this time. China can hide behind the Who it bought off, spread spam with false stories but this ain't over because  the Chinese government says so. Itvhascthd blood of it's people and many across the ed world on its hands. No more excuses.

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46 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're stirring the waters to make them look deep.  A report lands on your desk about a potentially cataclysmic outbreak of disease from a intelligence unit whose job it is to keep an eye out for exactly that and so you start juggling a myriad of other issues.  Okay. That only adds weight to the sense this is just one more failure of competency in the scheme of things. 

Authorities gets reports every day about potential threats, the presidential daily briefings are literally a litany of the various threats posed by numerous sources.  These types of reports have been going on for decades.

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11 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The Times of Israel is a reputable newspaper but there’s very little detail in this claim. 
 

As has been noted, the retrospectoscope gives a distorted view of events. If true, this was one piece of info from thousands to be assessed with no red line under it indicating how important it would become.

This was part of the ABC News erroneous report last week that the pentagon had to come out and correct the record with the release of a statement by the director of the national center of medical intelligence.  It’s false.

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